If you do romance her, then yeah, that's what all the romance is about in SoA; her falling into a depression. Which is understandable; it's not a small thing that's happened to her. But a bit disappointing... and I have to wonder why being in love with the Player causes her to be depressed.
If you play a female though, or just tell her no the first time she brings it up, then there isn't anything. I think Jan and maybe some others to try to talk to her about it, but then she just mumbles or changes the subject. She doesn't appear to even discuss it with Haer'Dalis; not sure what to make of that. Maybe she does privately, or maybe it's the bhaalspawn's own experience of being locked in a birdcage and abused by Irenicus that triggers her as well.
@Coutelier I think the Mazzy-Aerie banter in the Temple of Lathander is emblematic of this. Mazzy brings it up first (in an arguably insensitive way), and Aerie responds to that and the conversation moves on. It comes up right at the beginning of the Haer'Dalis romance, but he's deft enough to redirect her thoughts towards acting. Aside from that, it rarely comes up in banters, unless you're carting any of the evil NPCs around, who seem to enjoy needling her about it.
You know, as great as Kagain is as a tank (now bested by Dorn)
I'm sorry, but what? Dorn does not best Kagain as a tank in any appreciable manner. Kagain has 20 Con, which means he beats everyone as soon as he gets the Gloves of Dexterity. Dorn has 14 Con, which means he might as well have had 10; there's absolutely no point in using Dorn as a tank, especially over Kagain.
Give Kagain the Big-Fisted Belt, the Gloves of Dexterity, and he is a better tank than anyone in the game -- only a dwarf PC with maximum Con and the Manual of Bodily Health can be his equal, though Kagain with the Manual is better yet.
Really, Dorn? A tank? I can't think of a worse role to force him into.
The most bland and boring NPC in the series is definitely Cernd. Garrick at least has some entertaining lines.
It's been a long time since I used Kagain, I admit. He is a little beast for sure.
Dorn is such a savage damage dealer though, what with his 19 Str, that crazy powerful sword of his, and his poison ability. His THACO is improved by +2 if his sword kills within the last 24 hours (which is all the time basically).
If you don't place Dorn on the front line how do you use him?
I'll have to try a game with the two of side by side to see who ends up with the most kills. Kagain dual-wielding axes and Dorn of course using Rancor. It could well be Kagain who comes out with the most kills.
At the end of the day, it actually doesn't matter if one is a little better than the other. They're both devastating meleers.
Aahh, I see the problem. We're not using the same definition of 'tank'.
A tank is someone who soaks damage, not someone who necessarily deals damage (though it's certainly preferable). Dorn is an absolute beast, no doubt about it; he will chunk basically every enemy you send him against. But he can't take anywhere near as much of a punch as Kagain can, due to the difference in hit points between them. Even if Kagain doesn't have the Gloves of Dexterity, he'll only have on average 1 AC more than Dorn, since he'll be using a shield. Add to that, Kagain's a dwarf, so he gets shortie bonuses to saving throws.
Dorn should be in melee, but preferably behind someone like Kagain who, with sword-and-board, is taking the hits for him--allowing him to hit with impunity without risking death due to lower AC, fewer hit points, and poorer saving throws. Dorn will certainly do more damage; even if they have the same strength, Dorn's using a better weapon, and he has his wonderful Poison ability that Kagain can't hope to duplicate. But when it comes to taking a hit, no one does it better than Kagain.
Faldorn. All the dialog is just bland and monotone in BG1. It's almost as if her appearance in BG2 was just to say "Remember how I didn't seem serious in my monotone speech? WELL I WAS SERIOUS."
Aahh, I see the problem. We're not using the same definition of 'tank'.
A tank is someone who soaks damage, not someone who necessarily deals damage (though it's certainly preferable). Dorn is an absolute beast, no doubt about it; he will chunk basically every enemy you send him against. But he can't take anywhere near as much of a punch as Kagain can, due to the difference in hit points between them. Even if Kagain doesn't have the Gloves of Dexterity, he'll only have on average 1 AC more than Dorn, since he'll be using a shield. Add to that, Kagain's a dwarf, so he gets shortie bonuses to saving throws.
Dorn should be in melee, but preferably behind someone like Kagain who, with sword-and-board, is taking the hits for him--allowing him to hit with impunity without risking death due to lower AC, fewer hit points, and poorer saving throws. Dorn will certainly do more damage; even if they have the same strength, Dorn's using a better weapon, and he has his wonderful Poison ability that Kagain can't hope to duplicate. But when it comes to taking a hit, no one does it better than Kagain.
For sure, Kagain is the absolute king of those who can absorb a hit. No argument there.
Myself, I don't think it's necessary to avoid having Dorn stand toe-to-toe against enemies. It's fine if one wants to have him strike from behind Kagain, but he's okay one vs.one.
I just finished my first EE game a few weeks ago with Dorn as one of my three frontliners alongside my unarmored Fighter/Mage and Viconia. Dorn's AC is low enough in ankheg armor or full plate that he's perfectly fine directly on the front line. AC is about -1 or -2, something like that.
Dorn was the main frontliner. He took a bit of damage, yes. But it was rarely anything terribly severe. Dorn can cast Absorb Health (which is virtually instantaneous). Although I admit that most of the time I didn't get around to using it, prefering to have him finish off opponents with his sword.
(Viconia barely got hit because her AC was ridiculously low with her high Dex and ankheg armor. But about half the time I had Viconia casting spells rather than meleeing. And my Fighter/Mage cast either right before rushing in to melee, and sometimes during. He took the most damage. But nothing that Viconia couldn't heal, or a few potions here and there didn't take care of.)
Aahh, I see the problem. We're not using the same definition of 'tank'.
A tank is someone who soaks damage, not someone who necessarily deals damage (though it's certainly preferable). Dorn is an absolute beast, no doubt about it; he will chunk basically every enemy you send him against. But he can't take anywhere near as much of a punch as Kagain can, due to the difference in hit points between them. Even if Kagain doesn't have the Gloves of Dexterity, he'll only have on average 1 AC more than Dorn, since he'll be using a shield. Add to that, Kagain's a dwarf, so he gets shortie bonuses to saving throws.
Dorn should be in melee, but preferably behind someone like Kagain who, with sword-and-board, is taking the hits for him--allowing him to hit with impunity without risking death due to lower AC, fewer hit points, and poorer saving throws. Dorn will certainly do more damage; even if they have the same strength, Dorn's using a better weapon, and he has his wonderful Poison ability that Kagain can't hope to duplicate. But when it comes to taking a hit, no one does it better than Kagain.
For sure, Kagain is the absolute king of those who can absorb a hit. No argument there.
Myself, I don't think it's necessary to avoid having Dorn stand toe-to-toe against enemies. It's fine if one wants to have him strike from behind Kagain, but he's okay one vs.one.
I just finished my first EE game a few weeks ago with Dorn as one of my three frontliners alongside my unarmored Fighter/Mage and Viconia. Dorn's AC is low enough in ankheg armor or full plate that he's perfectly fine directly on the front line. AC is about -1 or -2, something like that.
Dorn was the main frontliner. He took a bit of damage, yes. But it was rarely anything terribly severe. Dorn can cast Absorb Health (which is virtually instantaneous). Although I admit that most of the time I didn't get around to using it, prefering to have him finish off opponents with his sword.
(Viconia barely got hit because her AC was ridiculously low with her high Dex and ankheg armor. But about half the time I had Viconia casting spells rather than meleeing. And my Fighter/Mage cast either right before rushing in to melee, and sometimes during. He took the most damage. But nothing that Viconia couldn't heal, or a few potions here and there didn't take care of.)
Yes, it's easy to argue that a tank isn't actually necessary in normal play, but you said Dorn was a better tank than Kagain, which was what I protested. ^^
He may be enough of a tank that his increased damage output makes him an overall better choice than Kagain (I probably wouldn't disagree there), but Kagain is still the better tank of the two.
IF you actually need someone to take the hits, Dorn isn't a particularly good choice due to his Con and his two-handed weapon. Viconia is actually slightly better -- she has an amazing Dex score, uses a shield, has 50% magic resistance, and her Con score is not low enough to get a penalty, so while she has even fewer hit points than Dorn, she can get a much higher AC, and with her magic resistance, she doesn't take nearly as much magic damage.
That said, Dorn is still a Warrior-type, and has a d10 HD and plate armor, so he's a better choice than most others. (Certainly better than a naked Fighter/Mage, or any variety of Thief who still wants to backstab.) Of the tasks that he can actually perform, though--which would be melee damage dealer, tank, and ranged damage dealer--tank is the one he does worst at. Thanks to Poison Weapon, he can be a fine archer.
I wasn't aware there are different definitions of "tank". I find the term quite obvious - tanks are slow, can withstand most attacks, and will usually be the last one standing. Or in other words, they sacrifice the ability to deal the most damage for the survivability to let the enemy exhaust themselves to a point where "most damage" isn't neccessary and "any damage" will seal the deal. This concept usually makes them the primary target - the enemy knows it will take a long time to take a tank down, so you need to start as soon as possible, or you'll be left without the means/ammo/strength to stand any chance in the end, no matter how much/if any damage the tank can deal then. Kagain is this in every aspect; the living fortress. And Dorn is his natural ally; the damage dealer who cuts down the enemies while they focus on bringing down the tank. Both are front liners, both are meant to be in melee, but both have very different roles.
Haer'Dalis for me, "Whats this? my raven does not see the vixen moon shining its alluring gaze on thy betwixed mind..." Oh for the love of Hells SHUT UP AND SPEAK NORMAL!! CALL ME RAVEN ONE MORE TIME!! I DARE YOU!!!
@lDanielHolm and @KidCarnival I don't disagree about the distinction of a "tank" being a character that can withstand a lot of punishment. There Kagain is the undisputed champ.
But myself, I've always thought of "tank" a little more broadly. I use it interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner."
Naturally, this has to be someone who can stand up to the punishment of melee. Therefore the character should have decent AC and/or HP to not get too bloodied up (constantly).
But that's only half the equation for melee capability, at least in my book.
The other half is what sorts of damage the frontliner can deal, which is determined by THACO, attacks per round, and Strength.
For me, if the meleer takes some damage... as my dual-wielding F/M did (although really not too badly--I got his AC into negative territory)... that's okay, as long as the character is a badass damage dealer. (Low THACO, 2-3 attacks per round, and massive Strength.) Because an enemy that is being utterly destroyed by a masterful warrior in my party will most often be dead too soon to hurt anyone substantially in return.
In other words, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. And I also rely heavily on disabling spells to make even quicker work of the enemy. So it's a coordinated and often pretty finely tuned attack.
Probably for the next four games or so in which I use Dorn, there is no way I am not having Dorn use that amazing sword of his. So equipping him with the bow is out of the question for perhaps the next year or so, for me. Maybe down the road when I'm ready to try a departure from the mundane for him. But not any time soon.
The best defense is a good offense only when that offense is good enough to kill them before they kill you.
You can look at it the other way, too: The best offense is a good defense, when that defense is good enough that they cannot kill you before you kill them.
The lower your defense, the more offense you need to bring to the table. As a corollary, the higher your defense, the lower offense you can bring while still succeeding.
"Glass cannon" is the term we use for mages--they can deal heavy damage in very short time, but they die very easily as well. You wouldn't put a pure mage in as a tank, despite having far more offense than Dorn. They have too low defense.
Dorn is not as short on his defenses as a mage, but compared to Kagain, he's in more or less the same situation as a mage is compared to him.
@lDanielHolm and @KidCarnival I don't disagree about the distinction of a "tank" being a character that can withstand a lot of punishment. There Kagain is the undisputed champ.
But myself, I've always thought of "tank" a little more broadly. I use it interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner."
Okay, at the risk of sounding overly blunt:
Good for you. No one else uses "tank" interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner," so time to move on and learn to use the term properly. I can't run around acting like "lol" means "lots of love" and expect everyone to understand me or for that matter conform to my definition. It will always mean "laugh out loud" to them no matter how much I pointlessly argue about it.
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This is entirely irrelevant of the above, and it is NOT an extension of the above, but I figured I should mention this since it's come up: if forced to have only one fighter in my party, strategically I would take Kagain over Dorn every time. The encounters won't be over nearly as fast, but Kagain can hold out a good 10x longer than Dorn due to vastly superior AC, saving throws, and HP.
@Quartz - Kagain holds out SO MUCH longer. I sent him and Dorn against the two battle horrors on the way to Durlag. On that narrow path, one automatically ends up "more" frontliner than the other, and that was Kagain. He walked out without a scratch, Dorn not nearly in "cure minor wounds" territory. To be fair, I have them equipped in a somewhat funny way (for instance, neither has the dexterity gloves and Kagain still wears Ankheg plate because I like how green he looks - yes, I'm easily amused) and with what they wear, their THAC0 and AC is the same. I guess if I had two Kagains, I'd still be standing on that bridge, waiting for them to kill the horrors. But alas, they would also still be alive and well.
Anyway, that's not the point of this topic. I agree with @Malachy that Dynaheir sure got the worst deal out of the canon party. Not that I ever take her along or rescue her to begin with, but from all other NPCs I never or rarely use, I know at least a few quotes and banters. Dynaheir, total blank except maybe "she's kinda bitchy". That is both subjective and not the best thing for a lawful good character to be remembered by.
@lDanielHolm and @KidCarnival I don't disagree about the distinction of a "tank" being a character that can withstand a lot of punishment. There Kagain is the undisputed champ.
But myself, I've always thought of "tank" a little more broadly. I use it interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner."
Okay, at the risk of sounding overly blunt:
Good for you. No one else uses "tank" interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner," so time to move on and learn to use the term properly. I can't run around acting like "lol" means "lots of love" and expect everyone to understand me or for that matter conform to my definition. It will always mean "laugh out loud" to them no matter how much I pointlessly argue about it...
Okay, that's fair, actually, and I concede the point. (I'll never get my knickers in a knot over a computer game, Quartz.) This isn't so much an argument as me explaining my overly loose usage of the term.
Even if couched within mistaken terminology, I feel the point I'm trying to make about which NPCs may be most advantageously placed on the front line has merit, though. To sum: for me the equation is about half "tankitude" and half damage-dealing capacity. At least in my style of play, it isn't essential to have only "tanks" as meleers. It's just as important for me to have warriors who deliver high damage. I mean, if there's discussion or debate to be had yet about the merits of that, I'm game.
In the final analysis, I don't think it's a terribly important distinction. Because I know from my own experience that I easily win the game with heavy damage dealers on the frontline who don't have whopping HP or regenerating Con. (Although that is much attributable to savvy spellcasting.)
Funny discussion about tanks and tank role. @lDanielHolm is totally right. It's not about the terminology or mythology :-) There are 3 simple roles in ANY game: 1. Tank 2. Damage Dealer 3. Support Some are better in their roles than others. Kagain is 100% a better TANK than Dorn. Even Branwen is a better TANK than Dorn :-)
1. Tank: - Paladin with shield style and casting ability. With high con\dex. Ajantis with a shield comes in mind. - Fighter with high dex\con. Ability to wear shields is a "+". Khalid with a shield comes in mind. - Cleric with high dex\con and spell casting ability. With all their protective spells even Viconia could be a nice tank. Jaheira and Anomen are nice tanks in BG2.
2. DD: - Fighters with high STR and 5 weap profs. Kensai probably is the best DD (Kensai\Mage for more power). But IMO the best DD class in the whole game is the Archer kit. - Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians with high STR and two-handed weapons or two weapons style. (Keldorn, Minsc, Dorn). - Backstabbing thieves or Swashbuckler kit or F\T multiclass. - Mages with all their offensive spells (Edwin, Xzar, Baeloth). - Any ranged warriors (Coran, Kivan, Montaron).
3. Support: - Clerics and Druids - buffers\debuffers - Mages - buffers\debuffers. Xan comes in mind. He isn't actually a DD, more a support unit. - Any rogue - detrapping, open locks, identify, bard's song and etc.
The thing is, that NPCs can combine different roles, to be good tanks and nice DDs at the same time (Kagain, Korgan), or tanks and supports at the same time (Jaheira, Yeslick). A TANK is mainly a defensive unit, like in Dragon Age, WOW or Lineage2 games for easy understanding. For example, nobody uses Aveline or a Phoenix Knight as a DD. It's stupid.
Of course you can use Dorn or Minsc as main tanks like @Lemernis, if you have no other choice or give them shields or if you are in love with them or whatever, but it's rather ridiculous. Because in that case Ajantis, Khalid and even Branwen are better tanks than Dorn.
I'd say Viconia was a better tank than Dorn. Even without buffs she can get -7 AC fairly easily. Her innate magic resistance also helps immensely. I used her as my tank in my last playthrough with Dorn as DD, it worked fine.
@DarkDogg I'm mainly sharing my own experience. And I'm not necessarily recommending what I do to others. Nor am I asserting that a frontline consisting entirely of characters with less than optimal HP and AC is 'better' than the more tried and true approaches to the game.
Where I arguably stepped out of line, and accept correction, is in asserting that Dorn is a superior "tank" to Kagain. What I should have said was something more along the lines that Dorn will likely get substantially more kills than Kagain fighting alongside him, even if he takes a little more damage. Now, to say that that makes Dorn more effective on the frontline is really not true. So I admit my error there. Dorn does not "best" Kagain as a tank. (He's just a stronger killing machine who obviously belongs on the forntline. Whatever you want to consider that. )
I've played lots of games over the years with some very offbeat party compositions. I can only speak for myself, I guess. But I really haven't had that hard a time at all using characters that don't have monster HP or very low AC as meleers. They may require a little more healing, sure. But not tremendously so. Not so much that it's a hassle, or even risks losing battles. I will hasten to add that this playstyle requires really smart spellcasting, though.
Without a doubt, one will have the least amount of post-battle healing to do by placing Kagain in the forward-most position on the front line. And if one's main character is also a formidable tank build, the two of them will absorb most of the melee damage. Yup.
But would I want to play every game that way? Nope.
I think for me, this discussion mostly reminds me that after many years of playing the game I'm always looking for new and interesting challenges.
I'd say Viconia was a better tank than Dorn. Even without buffs she can get -7 AC fairly easily. Her innate magic resistance also helps immensely. I used her as my tank in my last playthrough with Dorn as DD, it worked fine.
Yeah, with Viconia's 19 Dex in ankheg armor she's automatically at like -6 AC, I think. She's really hard to hit. She makes the enemy swing at air, basically. Unfortunately, her THACO and APR don't match a warrior class's. So while she doesn't get hit much, she also doesn't hit as much as a Fighter, Ranger, or Pally. She is a better "tank" than Dorn, though.
One more point I'd like to add: What makes Kagain undisputed king on the frontline, I would say, is that he can dual-wield axes in addition to being absorb so much punishment. And there are now two enchanted axes (Bala's axe plus the addition of the new one) that make this quite powerful. Why waste his talents as a Fighter by having him just absorb damage with a big shield and axe? As long as you get his AC low enough as a dual-wielder, what with his regeneration of HP, have him slaughter as many enemies as he can.
We've drifted quite a bit from who is most boring, haven't we, lol. But that's what I love about these threads.
When we talk about boring vesus interesting, I guess how capable a character is matters. So it makes sense that we find ourselves talking about how we use the characters, what their roles are, etc.
There has to be a distinction between "most boring to play" and "most boring personality" (or lack of such, right, Cernd?).
For example, I really like Branwen as a cleric. She doesn't need the items Viconia needs to be able to use a shield. Her special ability is inferior to the other clerics, but in turn, you get her very early without any hassle and can influence her abilities the most. She does indeed make a fine tank if neccessary, but can also serve as support. From the way you can play her and how flexible she is, she's not boring to me.
But her personality is, sadly, not much more than the stereotype amazonian woman who worships a god of war. Compared to Viconia and Yeslick, that's rather bland and boring.
On the other hand, like I mentioned before, it would be silly to use Kagain as anything but a frontlining tank (however you define "tank", lol). His role in any party is very static, which is somewhat boring compared to fighters who can be ranged or melee in different party combinations.
While a bit stereotype as grumpy axe-wielding dwarf, Kagain still shows personality. He abandons his quest, so I'm not taking that into consideration. But he does have an attitude that shows if in a party with Yeslick and Edwin. So his personality isn't boring, just his role in the party.
He abandons his quest, so I'm not taking that into consideration.
Actually, I would consider that as a positive thing. Just about everyone else in Baldur's Gate, in every other computer game, and at tabletop, never abandons their quests and goes through to the bitter end. It is universal enough to be kind of boring, and the moment someone goes "Meh, whatever", and displays the sort of character and personality to make it viable, is a breath of fresh air and an extra plus for Kagain.
@Chow: It actually says something about his personality to abandon it in the first place. I just meant I'm not specutaling on things that may have been in the quest (or not).
Comments
If you play a female though, or just tell her no the first time she brings it up, then there isn't anything. I think Jan and maybe some others to try to talk to her about it, but then she just mumbles or changes the subject. She doesn't appear to even discuss it with Haer'Dalis; not sure what to make of that. Maybe she does privately, or maybe it's the bhaalspawn's own experience of being locked in a birdcage and abused by Irenicus that triggers her as well.
A tank is someone who soaks damage, not someone who necessarily deals damage (though it's certainly preferable). Dorn is an absolute beast, no doubt about it; he will chunk basically every enemy you send him against. But he can't take anywhere near as much of a punch as Kagain can, due to the difference in hit points between them. Even if Kagain doesn't have the Gloves of Dexterity, he'll only have on average 1 AC more than Dorn, since he'll be using a shield. Add to that, Kagain's a dwarf, so he gets shortie bonuses to saving throws.
Dorn should be in melee, but preferably behind someone like Kagain who, with sword-and-board, is taking the hits for him--allowing him to hit with impunity without risking death due to lower AC, fewer hit points, and poorer saving throws. Dorn will certainly do more damage; even if they have the same strength, Dorn's using a better weapon, and he has his wonderful Poison ability that Kagain can't hope to duplicate. But when it comes to taking a hit, no one does it better than Kagain.
Myself, I don't think it's necessary to avoid having Dorn stand toe-to-toe against enemies. It's fine if one wants to have him strike from behind Kagain, but he's okay one vs.one.
I just finished my first EE game a few weeks ago with Dorn as one of my three frontliners alongside my unarmored Fighter/Mage and Viconia. Dorn's AC is low enough in ankheg armor or full plate that he's perfectly fine directly on the front line. AC is about -1 or -2, something like that.
Dorn was the main frontliner. He took a bit of damage, yes. But it was rarely anything terribly severe. Dorn can cast Absorb Health (which is virtually instantaneous). Although I admit that most of the time I didn't get around to using it, prefering to have him finish off opponents with his sword.
(Viconia barely got hit because her AC was ridiculously low with her high Dex and ankheg armor. But about half the time I had Viconia casting spells rather than meleeing. And my Fighter/Mage cast either right before rushing in to melee, and sometimes during. He took the most damage. But nothing that Viconia couldn't heal, or a few potions here and there didn't take care of.)
He may be enough of a tank that his increased damage output makes him an overall better choice than Kagain (I probably wouldn't disagree there), but Kagain is still the better tank of the two.
IF you actually need someone to take the hits, Dorn isn't a particularly good choice due to his Con and his two-handed weapon. Viconia is actually slightly better -- she has an amazing Dex score, uses a shield, has 50% magic resistance, and her Con score is not low enough to get a penalty, so while she has even fewer hit points than Dorn, she can get a much higher AC, and with her magic resistance, she doesn't take nearly as much magic damage.
That said, Dorn is still a Warrior-type, and has a d10 HD and plate armor, so he's a better choice than most others. (Certainly better than a naked Fighter/Mage, or any variety of Thief who still wants to backstab.) Of the tasks that he can actually perform, though--which would be melee damage dealer, tank, and ranged damage dealer--tank is the one he does worst at. Thanks to Poison Weapon, he can be a fine archer.
But myself, I've always thought of "tank" a little more broadly. I use it interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner."
Naturally, this has to be someone who can stand up to the punishment of melee. Therefore the character should have decent AC and/or HP to not get too bloodied up (constantly).
But that's only half the equation for melee capability, at least in my book.
The other half is what sorts of damage the frontliner can deal, which is determined by THACO, attacks per round, and Strength.
For me, if the meleer takes some damage... as my dual-wielding F/M did (although really not too badly--I got his AC into negative territory)... that's okay, as long as the character is a badass damage dealer. (Low THACO, 2-3 attacks per round, and massive Strength.) Because an enemy that is being utterly destroyed by a masterful warrior in my party will most often be dead too soon to hurt anyone substantially in return.
In other words, sometimes the best defense is a good offense. And I also rely heavily on disabling spells to make even quicker work of the enemy. So it's a coordinated and often pretty finely tuned attack.
Probably for the next four games or so in which I use Dorn, there is no way I am not having Dorn use that amazing sword of his. So equipping him with the bow is out of the question for perhaps the next year or so, for me. Maybe down the road when I'm ready to try a departure from the mundane for him. But not any time soon.
You can look at it the other way, too: The best offense is a good defense, when that defense is good enough that they cannot kill you before you kill them.
The lower your defense, the more offense you need to bring to the table. As a corollary, the higher your defense, the lower offense you can bring while still succeeding.
"Glass cannon" is the term we use for mages--they can deal heavy damage in very short time, but they die very easily as well. You wouldn't put a pure mage in as a tank, despite having far more offense than Dorn. They have too low defense.
Dorn is not as short on his defenses as a mage, but compared to Kagain, he's in more or less the same situation as a mage is compared to him.
Good for you. No one else uses "tank" interchangeably with "meleer" and "frontliner," so time to move on and learn to use the term properly. I can't run around acting like "lol" means "lots of love" and expect everyone to understand me or for that matter conform to my definition. It will always mean "laugh out loud" to them no matter how much I pointlessly argue about it.
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This is entirely irrelevant of the above, and it is NOT an extension of the above, but I figured I should mention this since it's come up: if forced to have only one fighter in my party, strategically I would take Kagain over Dorn every time. The encounters won't be over nearly as fast, but Kagain can hold out a good 10x longer than Dorn due to vastly superior AC, saving throws, and HP.
- You have to rescue her for Minsc
- Kill or keep an eye on her for Edwin
- She is assumed to be part of the Canon party
yet with all i don't even remember anything memorable about her, no dialogue, no interaction of any kind.
Maybe that's explains her fate at the start of BG2. Keep the better halves etc.
Anyway, that's not the point of this topic. I agree with @Malachy that Dynaheir sure got the worst deal out of the canon party. Not that I ever take her along or rescue her to begin with, but from all other NPCs I never or rarely use, I know at least a few quotes and banters. Dynaheir, total blank except maybe "she's kinda bitchy". That is both subjective and not the best thing for a lawful good character to be remembered by.
Even if couched within mistaken terminology, I feel the point I'm trying to make about which NPCs may be most advantageously placed on the front line has merit, though. To sum: for me the equation is about half "tankitude" and half damage-dealing capacity. At least in my style of play, it isn't essential to have only "tanks" as meleers. It's just as important for me to have warriors who deliver high damage. I mean, if there's discussion or debate to be had yet about the merits of that, I'm game.
In the final analysis, I don't think it's a terribly important distinction. Because I know from my own experience that I easily win the game with heavy damage dealers on the frontline who don't have whopping HP or regenerating Con. (Although that is much attributable to savvy spellcasting.)
@lDanielHolm is totally right.
It's not about the terminology or mythology :-)
There are 3 simple roles in ANY game:
1. Tank
2. Damage Dealer
3. Support
Some are better in their roles than others. Kagain is 100% a better TANK than Dorn. Even Branwen is a better TANK than Dorn :-)
1. Tank:
- Paladin with shield style and casting ability. With high con\dex. Ajantis with a shield comes in mind.
- Fighter with high dex\con. Ability to wear shields is a "+". Khalid with a shield comes in mind.
- Cleric with high dex\con and spell casting ability. With all their protective spells even Viconia could be a nice tank. Jaheira and Anomen are nice tanks in BG2.
2. DD:
- Fighters with high STR and 5 weap profs. Kensai probably is the best DD (Kensai\Mage for more power). But IMO the best DD class in the whole game is the Archer kit.
- Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians with high STR and two-handed weapons or two weapons style. (Keldorn, Minsc, Dorn).
- Backstabbing thieves or Swashbuckler kit or F\T multiclass.
- Mages with all their offensive spells (Edwin, Xzar, Baeloth).
- Any ranged warriors (Coran, Kivan, Montaron).
3. Support:
- Clerics and Druids - buffers\debuffers
- Mages - buffers\debuffers. Xan comes in mind. He isn't actually a DD, more a support unit.
- Any rogue - detrapping, open locks, identify, bard's song and etc.
The thing is, that NPCs can combine different roles, to be good tanks and nice DDs at the same time (Kagain, Korgan), or tanks and supports at the same time (Jaheira, Yeslick).
A TANK is mainly a defensive unit, like in Dragon Age, WOW or Lineage2 games for easy understanding.
For example, nobody uses Aveline or a Phoenix Knight as a DD. It's stupid.
Of course you can use Dorn or Minsc as main tanks like @Lemernis, if you have no other choice or give them shields or if you are in love with them or whatever, but it's rather ridiculous. Because in that case Ajantis, Khalid and even Branwen are better tanks than Dorn.
Where I arguably stepped out of line, and accept correction, is in asserting that Dorn is a superior "tank" to Kagain. What I should have said was something more along the lines that Dorn will likely get substantially more kills than Kagain fighting alongside him, even if he takes a little more damage. Now, to say that that makes Dorn more effective on the frontline is really not true. So I admit my error there. Dorn does not "best" Kagain as a tank. (He's just a stronger killing machine who obviously belongs on the forntline. Whatever you want to consider that.
I've played lots of games over the years with some very offbeat party compositions. I can only speak for myself, I guess. But I really haven't had that hard a time at all using characters that don't have monster HP or very low AC as meleers. They may require a little more healing, sure. But not tremendously so. Not so much that it's a hassle, or even risks losing battles. I will hasten to add that this playstyle requires really smart spellcasting, though.
Without a doubt, one will have the least amount of post-battle healing to do by placing Kagain in the forward-most position on the front line. And if one's main character is also a formidable tank build, the two of them will absorb most of the melee damage. Yup.
But would I want to play every game that way? Nope.
I think for me, this discussion mostly reminds me that after many years of playing the game I'm always looking for new and interesting challenges.
We've drifted quite a bit from who is most boring, haven't we, lol. But that's what I love about these threads.
When we talk about boring vesus interesting, I guess how capable a character is matters. So it makes sense that we find ourselves talking about how we use the characters, what their roles are, etc.
For example, I really like Branwen as a cleric. She doesn't need the items Viconia needs to be able to use a shield. Her special ability is inferior to the other clerics, but in turn, you get her very early without any hassle and can influence her abilities the most. She does indeed make a fine tank if neccessary, but can also serve as support. From the way you can play her and how flexible she is, she's not boring to me.
But her personality is, sadly, not much more than the stereotype amazonian woman who worships a god of war. Compared to Viconia and Yeslick, that's rather bland and boring.
On the other hand, like I mentioned before, it would be silly to use Kagain as anything but a frontlining tank (however you define "tank", lol). His role in any party is very static, which is somewhat boring compared to fighters who can be ranged or melee in different party combinations.
While a bit stereotype as grumpy axe-wielding dwarf, Kagain still shows personality. He abandons his quest, so I'm not taking that into consideration. But he does have an attitude that shows if in a party with Yeslick and Edwin. So his personality isn't boring, just his role in the party.