Well maybe toss in a good/neutral thief too. Otherwise non evil parties will only have Jan to choose from if they want a thief that can gain levels in their thief class. Maybe a swashbuckler.
See, the reason why an evil thief is necessary is because otherwise there's no evil thief for those of us who side with Bohdi. Yoshimo is, well...Yoshimo. And Jan is only funny the first time.
That said, I want Baeloth in BG2 as a party member, oh yes. Beyond him the other 3 EE NPCs, and said evil thief, I just want *more*. I know that in BG2 they went quality-over-quantity with the NPCs, but frankly there aren't enough to go around.
Have you tried the Valen mod? Chaotic evil Vampire Fighter/Thief. I've heard she's pretty cool, but I've never used her myself.
She Is cool (and she's got awesome vampire ability "upgrades" separate from her normal level ups); but she has a hard time not attacking people to feed, and eventually some *seriously* bad ass vampire hunters come after you. It's like "Okay we know she's cheesy and overpowered, but you're gonna PAY for it!"
BG2 needs a good single class thief. Yeah, and she should be cool, not irritating -OverhaulTrent
Evil + "she" + thief = evil female thief. Of course, it's not like this has been written in stone or anything, but at the very least it's an indication of where the winds are blowing, so to speak...
@leeho730 We already just had a sorcerer. Or is he? At least that's what I remember reading somewhere. But prior to that, yes, my vote used to go to sorcerer too. Aha! I know! They have Shadowdancer placeholder, and the devs say they would add a thief NPC...it wouldn't surprise me that it'll be a female Shadowdancer. That's cool! But another evil NPC? Why is there hardly any love for good alignment NPC? Baeloth and now that?
@Illustair: The thing is, Good parties already have considerable firepower - Keldorn, Mazzy, Minsc and Aerie are all very formidable in their own right. And, as has been stated before, Good PCs tend to rack up more experience, get better rewards and save more gold thanks to store discounts; the only way an Evil party can keep up is to have more powerful NPCs, hence Dorn, Edwin, etc.
And yes, the latest addition to the roster is indeed a Sorcerer.
I can understand that, but isn't it going a little bit too far? Edwin, Korgan, and Viconia can already hold off pretty well on their own before. Then there's the badass Dorn, and most importantly the new guy
Baeloth
Another evil Shadowdancer would just be depressing to the majority of BG players, as most people I believe tend to play good. But believe me, I understand where they're coming from - that there's no evil thief in BG2. It's just...at least give us someone as cool and as badass as them. None of the good guys can offer that.
Evil didn't even have enough NPCs to fill ONE party, without being picky or anything. If a game already offers the option to pick an alignment, it should at least offer enough NPCs for each. Yes, yes, yes, Viconia, Korgan and Edwin (and now Dorn) are so super powerful, the evil parties don't need to be 6 characters, but that's bullshit. The less NPCs you take along, the more you miss out on banters and personal quests and storylines. Not everyone is a powergamer who only cares about how mighty an NPC is. It's a roleplaying game, so one can expect a majority of players to be interested in the roleplay aspect. So no, I don't think evil has "enough" NPCs. There's no word if Baeloth will be in BG2:EE. As it stands, it's still a party of 5 since Dorn, and should the female evil thief be included, it would finally make an all evil party possible. And I could still not be picky and change it like a good or neutral party could; I'd be stuck with these 5 NPCs and have no other options.
With the reputation system as it is, I'd vote for neutral NPCs, so they are usable by all alignments with minimal rep management.
Evil didn't even have enough NPCs to fill ONE party, without being picky or anything. If a game already offers the option to pick an alignment, it should at least offer enough NPCs for each. Yes, yes, yes, Viconia, Korgan and Edwin (and now Dorn) are so super powerful, the evil parties don't need to be 6 characters, but that's bullshit. The less NPCs you take along, the more you miss out on banters and personal quests and storylines. Not everyone is a powergamer who only cares about how mighty an NPC is. It's a roleplaying game, so one can expect a majority of players to be interested in the roleplay aspect. So no, I don't think evil has "enough" NPCs. There's no word if Baeloth will be in BG2:EE. As it stands, it's still a party of 5 since Dorn, and should the female evil thief be included, it would finally make an all evil party possible. And I could still not be picky and change it like a good or neutral party could; I'd be stuck with these 5 NPCs and have no other options.
With the reputation system as it is, I'd vote for neutral NPCs, so they are usable by all alignments with minimal rep management.
@KidCarnival: Trent Oster had this to say in response to the question of whether Baeloth would appear in BG2:EE:
We have some plan for the Baeloth character. He's just too much fun to abandon him.
That's not a concrete statement, but take it for what it's worth...
Now, regarding balance and representation, I think the best way to parse this is to look at it from a purely mathematical perspective, adhering to the basic facts. What we know for certain is that BG2:EE will have a minimum of 19 NPCs (not counting the new recruit at the start of ToB). It breaks down like this:
Good has 8 NPCs: Aerie (Cleric/Mage), Imoen (Mage), Keldorn (Inquisitor), Mazzy (Fighter), Minsc (Ranger), Nalia (Mage), Valygar (Stalker) and Rasaad (Monk). This count goes up to 9 if
Anomen's quest is completed successfully.
Neutral has 7 NPCs: Anomen (Fighter/Cleric), Cernd (Shapeshifter), Haer'Dalis (Blade), Jaheira (Fighter/Druid), Jan (Thief/Illusionist), Yoshimo (Bounty Hunter) and Neera (Wild Mage). However, for practical purposes that count should actually be 6 or 5, since
you'd need to replace Yoshimo anyway and Anomen converts to Good upon completion of his sidequest.
And finally, Evil has 4 NPCs: Dorn (Blackguard), Korgan (Berserker), Viconia (Cleric) and Edwin (Mage). This count could potentially go down to 3 if you
romance Viconia and convert her to Neutral.
If we take the Reddit mentions of a female thief as a guarantee, that's 5. If Baeloth (Sorcerer) can be recruited again, that's 6.
Looking at this data, several things become apparent:
1. Of the 11 base classes, only Barbarians are not represented at all.
2. Pure thieves are underrepresented across the board, though Good and Neutral parties will at least have characters theoretically capable of using thief skills. The addition of an evil thief will offset this issue.
3. Neutral has no dedicated melee characters like Keldorn or Korgan. A Neutral party would need to rely on Anomen and Jaheira for frontline combat
and would need to deliberately botch Anomen's quest to keep him Neutral.
4. The following gender/race combinations are not present in BG2:EE: female half-orc, male halfling, female gnome, male elf and female dwarf.
With the possibility of sub-races and new race options, I wouldn't count Haer'Dalis as elf. He's a tiefling, and tieflings are high on the list of likely new races. If he was a nerfed version of something that will very likely not become playable, let's say a mind flayer, I might count him in "exotic/underrepresented races".
"Too awesome to abandon"... Until there's something more clear in the direction of "recruitable", I consider that a neutral statement. He might return as not recruitable, and be a quest giver, enemy or have a new area instead.
Under 4. you forgot "female dwarf", which isn't present in any part.
From the numbers alone, this isn't balanced at all. Evil has half the NPCs good has. Neutral has at least enough to fill a party. It may also be just my opinion, but most of the neutral NPCs are more leaning toward good from their personality and story, where BG1 has more balance in that regard. Some feel more right in a good party, others fit in better or equally good with evil. With the more detailed personalities due to quests and banters, it's even more obvious that there is a lack for evil options.
With the possibility of sub-races and new race options, I wouldn't count Haer'Dalis as elf. He's a tiefling, and tieflings are high on the list of likely new races. If he was a nerfed version of something that will very likely not become playable, let's say a mind flayer, I might count him in "exotic/underrepresented races".
I'd rather we stick to the bare facts for now - if new race options and kits become available further down the line, we can re-evaluate at that time. That said, Haer'Dalis' character information sheet lists him as tiefling, so I take your point.
"Too awesome to abandon"... Until there's something more clear in the direction of "recruitable", I consider that a neutral statement. He might return as not recruitable, and be a quest giver, enemy or have a new area instead.
I agree, it's not necessarily indicative of Baeloth being an NPC, which is why I don't list him as an "official" party member for BG2 yet.
From the numbers alone, this isn't balanced at all. Evil has half the NPCs good has. Neutral has at least enough to fill a party. It may also be just my opinion, but most of the neutral NPCs are more leaning toward good from their personality and story, where BG1 has more balance in that regard. Some feel more right in a good party, others fit in better or equally good with evil. With the more detailed personalities due to quests and banters, it's even more obvious that there is a lack for evil options.
Well... bear in mind that this analysis does have certain caveats.
First, we must take into account the simple fact that there's a trade-off at work here: the game offers substantial bonuses to Good RPs, and offsets them with more powerful Evil NPCs. So when it comes to evil parties, the mindset is clearly "quality over quantity" and I don't think that needs to change.
That said, you're right to point out that at the very least, there must be enough characters for a full and balanced party. If this thief character materializes, we'll have Blackguard/Berserker/Thief/Cleric/Mage, which works out just fine.
Regarding Neutral characters, I think that depends more on your own personal interpretation of the character; Jaheira was with me throughout my entire evil playthrough, and apart from walking away from a fight with Drizzt, I never had any problems with her. By the same token, Neera fits in rather nicely with my current team of Dorn, Shar-Teel, Viconia and Montaron - it's just a question of how you view their personalities.
From my perspective, Jaheira and Cernd both lean towards good, whereas Yoshimo and Jan (and Neera, from my impressions of her so far) don't give a toss unless it affects them personally. Anomen, of course, depends on how you handle his side quest. Haer'Dalis is very much a chameleon; if you look at his banters with various party members, he seems to project what they want to see, and so he comes off as good-natured but fatalistic in a good party and morbidly fascinated in an evil party (watching him tip toe around all the sociopaths is something I find entertaining). Aerie seems to be the only person he is "himself" around.
We NEEEEEEEED a not Anomen option for good parties that want a fast leveling cleric. And a not Anomen romance option for the girls. (I am using him right now for the first time if you can't tell.)
I always use Anomen in a good-aligned party, he's still a decent frontliner when not healing. Plus later on he's a total beast with Crom Faeyr.
And I agree, male players get three romance options while female players only get one. I've never understood that, seems a bit unfair. I'm sure Valygar or Haer'Dalis could have made for decent options as well.
But it doesn't really affect me personally, I usually go for Jaheira. Something about her voice really grabs me... lol
From what I read, both Haer'Dalis and Valygar were meant to be romance options (Haer'Dalis for both m and f, Valygar for f) and didn't make it due to deadlines. I guess it would be fair to finish these plans. Anomen as only option seems more like a punishment and a way to tell players "MAKE A MALE CHARACTER, WE DO NOT LIKE WOMEN AROUND HERE".
@shawne: I get the quality over quantity idea, but still... not all evil players are powergamers who only care about the gameplay aspect of their NPCs. I would play evil even if the NPCs were not the most powerful and I often restrict myself a bit to have them more balanced (i.e. Edwin sticks more closely to conjuration and uses spells true to his school; Kagain uses axes even if better weapons become available). I simply prefer their personalities, and it isn't the most insane claim ever to say that in a roleplaying game, most players will pay attention to that. That's my point, it's a RPG. It shouldn't favor either side for powergaming. If you want to do that, it makes no difference if you play good, neutral or evil because you'll metagame and rep manage anyway to have the best of all available NPCs. From a roleplay perspective, all alignments are equally logical for a bhaalspawn. Charname may be a good person and be truly not aware of the evil inside. Charname may be torn between both sides and hence turn out to be neutral. Charname may subconciously be drawn to evil and embrace those impulses. There is nothing that says Charname's life should be easier or harder due to that.
@KidCarnival: I don't think it's an issue of powergaming at all, though. I mean, let's say the evil NPCs were equal to (or weaker than) the good NPCs - the game is still designed in such a way that you'd consistently miss out on rewards, money and EXP by choosing Smart Evil courses of action. In the absence of any other counterbalance, it would come across as incredibly skewed. Powergaming is incidental to an evil playthrough, it's just the benefit you get as opposed to hitting the level cap sooner and swimming in gold the entire time.
@shawne: Playing evil isn't missing out on rewards. You have the smart evil option, and you have other ways to make up for it - evil deeds, like stealing and killing. You may get half the gold as a quest reward, but you can steal from stores and commoners and still have the same amount (or in case of items, no need to first get gold). All in all, the game should be balanced both in numbers and power of NPCs.
@KidCarnival: Gold is one thing, EXP is quite another. I managed to reach level 28 in my first evil BGT playthrough, but it took me substantially longer to level up in the BG1 portion of the game. And I don't think I would have made it that far if I'd had to play with sub-par types like Tiax or Eldoth, as opposed to powerhouses like Viconia, Edwin, Shar-Teel and Sarevok...
@shawne: I actually like a slower progress, and I like to figure out what use I can make of an NPC I usually wouldn't take along, if they are interesting from quest or personality. Guess it's a matter of taste, as so many things.
Comments
They heavily implied "female evil thief" in the Reddit AMAA.
That said, I want Baeloth in BG2 as a party member, oh yes. Beyond him the other 3 EE NPCs, and said evil thief, I just want *more*. I know that in BG2 they went quality-over-quantity with the NPCs, but frankly there aren't enough to go around.
Thanks for the info. Being from Reddit explains why I missed that info.
2. Dual fighter thief or pure kitted thief
3. One NPC for each new DLC class.
BG2 needs a good single class thief. Yeah, and she should be cool, not irritating -OverhaulTrent
Evil + "she" + thief = evil female thief.
We already just had a sorcerer. Or is he? At least that's what I remember reading somewhere. But prior to that, yes, my vote used to go to sorcerer too. Aha! I know! They have Shadowdancer placeholder, and the devs say they would add a thief NPC...it wouldn't surprise me that it'll be a female Shadowdancer. That's cool! But another evil NPC? Why is there hardly any love for good alignment NPC? Baeloth and now that?
And yes, the latest addition to the roster is indeed a Sorcerer.
@leeho730
Maybe. Try having a new game.
He's a bit of an Easter Egg though. Slightly hidden.
With the reputation system as it is, I'd vote for neutral NPCs, so they are usable by all alignments with minimal rep management.
With the reputation system as it is, I'd vote for neutral NPCs, so they are usable by all alignments with minimal rep management.
We have some plan for the Baeloth character. He's just too much fun to abandon him.
That's not a concrete statement, but take it for what it's worth...
Now, regarding balance and representation, I think the best way to parse this is to look at it from a purely mathematical perspective, adhering to the basic facts. What we know for certain is that BG2:EE will have a minimum of 19 NPCs (not counting the new recruit at the start of ToB). It breaks down like this:
Good has 8 NPCs: Aerie (Cleric/Mage), Imoen (Mage), Keldorn (Inquisitor), Mazzy (Fighter), Minsc (Ranger), Nalia (Mage), Valygar (Stalker) and Rasaad (Monk). This count goes up to 9 if
Neutral has 7 NPCs: Anomen (Fighter/Cleric), Cernd (Shapeshifter), Haer'Dalis (Blade), Jaheira (Fighter/Druid), Jan (Thief/Illusionist), Yoshimo (Bounty Hunter) and Neera (Wild Mage). However, for practical purposes that count should actually be 6 or 5, since
And finally, Evil has 4 NPCs: Dorn (Blackguard), Korgan (Berserker), Viconia (Cleric) and Edwin (Mage). This count could potentially go down to 3 if you
If we take the Reddit mentions of a female thief as a guarantee, that's 5. If Baeloth (Sorcerer) can be recruited again, that's 6.
Looking at this data, several things become apparent:
1. Of the 11 base classes, only Barbarians are not represented at all.
2. Pure thieves are underrepresented across the board, though Good and Neutral parties will at least have characters theoretically capable of using thief skills. The addition of an evil thief will offset this issue.
3. Neutral has no dedicated melee characters like Keldorn or Korgan. A Neutral party would need to rely on Anomen and Jaheira for frontline combat
4. The following gender/race combinations are not present in BG2:EE: female half-orc, male halfling, female gnome, male elf and female dwarf.
"Too awesome to abandon"... Until there's something more clear in the direction of "recruitable", I consider that a neutral statement. He might return as not recruitable, and be a quest giver, enemy or have a new area instead.
Under 4. you forgot "female dwarf", which isn't present in any part.
From the numbers alone, this isn't balanced at all. Evil has half the NPCs good has. Neutral has at least enough to fill a party. It may also be just my opinion, but most of the neutral NPCs are more leaning toward good from their personality and story, where BG1 has more balance in that regard. Some feel more right in a good party, others fit in better or equally good with evil. With the more detailed personalities due to quests and banters, it's even more obvious that there is a lack for evil options.
First, we must take into account the simple fact that there's a trade-off at work here: the game offers substantial bonuses to Good RPs, and offsets them with more powerful Evil NPCs. So when it comes to evil parties, the mindset is clearly "quality over quantity" and I don't think that needs to change.
That said, you're right to point out that at the very least, there must be enough characters for a full and balanced party. If this thief character materializes, we'll have Blackguard/Berserker/Thief/Cleric/Mage, which works out just fine.
Regarding Neutral characters, I think that depends more on your own personal interpretation of the character; Jaheira was with me throughout my entire evil playthrough, and apart from walking away from a fight with Drizzt, I never had any problems with her. By the same token, Neera fits in rather nicely with my current team of Dorn, Shar-Teel, Viconia and Montaron - it's just a question of how you view their personalities.
And I agree, male players get three romance options while female players only get one. I've never understood that, seems a bit unfair. I'm sure Valygar or Haer'Dalis could have made for decent options as well.
But it doesn't really affect me personally, I usually go for Jaheira. Something about her voice really grabs me... lol
@shawne: I get the quality over quantity idea, but still... not all evil players are powergamers who only care about the gameplay aspect of their NPCs. I would play evil even if the NPCs were not the most powerful and I often restrict myself a bit to have them more balanced (i.e. Edwin sticks more closely to conjuration and uses spells true to his school; Kagain uses axes even if better weapons become available). I simply prefer their personalities, and it isn't the most insane claim ever to say that in a roleplaying game, most players will pay attention to that. That's my point, it's a RPG. It shouldn't favor either side for powergaming. If you want to do that, it makes no difference if you play good, neutral or evil because you'll metagame and rep manage anyway to have the best of all available NPCs.
From a roleplay perspective, all alignments are equally logical for a bhaalspawn. Charname may be a good person and be truly not aware of the evil inside. Charname may be torn between both sides and hence turn out to be neutral. Charname may subconciously be drawn to evil and embrace those impulses. There is nothing that says Charname's life should be easier or harder due to that.
All in all, the game should be balanced both in numbers and power of NPCs.
In a more expansive game I don't mind slow progression, but have you ever tried clearing Durlag's Tower at level 4? It's not pretty...