Reload on levelling?

24jel

Hi there,

I just finished Baldur's Gate and was reading up on some aspects of the game. I encountered somewhere that some people reload the game on level up to get the best rolls possible for health and number of spell slots. I never did this in the game - is it even worth the trouble?

TJ_Hooker

It only affects HP. Also, were you playing on Normal difficulty (I believe this is the default difficulty)? Because if you were, you got max HP at level up automatically.

Decadoice

It only affects HP rolls, and only on Core or above difficulty - it will generally add up to about 15-30 extra max HP on average (depending on your class) by the end of BG.

24jel

Thanks for your answers. I was playing on the default difficulty so it doesn't apply then.

Oxford_Guy

24jel said:

Thanks for your answers. I was playing on the default difficulty so it doesn't apply then.

BTW "Core" difficulty is what most people play on, as is the closest to AD&D rules, though some drop down to Normal to max HP when levelling and to avoid the chance of failure when scribing spells, though I think it makes the game less interesting and too easy

Erg

Oxford_Guy said:

some drop down to Normal to max HP when levelling and to avoid the chance of failure when scribing spells, though I think it makes the game less interesting and too easy

I don't always do that, but when I do I prefer to go in a place where there aren't foes to level up (e.g. a store, a commoner house, etc.)

I believe it is worth mentioning that, at least in BG2 (I don't know if this is the case also in BGEE), there are some foes that are scripted to vanish at normal or lower levels. So playing at core rules and then lowering to normal may decrease the challenge even if you then raise back to core or higher and I know at least a map in BG2 where because of this you lose valuable loot.

SCARY_WIZARD

I like doing that, especially when playing a multi-classed character. No way am I going to get nipped at by Vampiric Wolves without something to show for it.

Djimmy

It's not worth it. I mean, it's like cheesing in my opinion. If you start a core rules game, keep it that way.

Madhax

Erg said:

Oxford_Guy said:

some drop down to Normal to max HP when levelling and to avoid the chance of failure when scribing spells, though I think it makes the game less interesting and too easy

I don't always do that, but when I do I prefer to go in a place where there aren't foes to level up (e.g. a store, a commoner house, etc.)

I believe it is worth mentioning that, at least in BG2 (I don't know if this is the case also in BGEE), there are some foes that are scripted to vanish at normal or lower levels. So playing at core rules and then lowering to normal may decrease the challenge even if you then raise back to core or higher and I know at least a map in BG2 where because of this you lose valuable loot.

Wait, where in BG2 do you miss out on loot for fiddling with the difficulty? PM me or Spoiler-tag it if it's sensitive, I didn't know about this. Thanks.

Erg

Madhax said:

Wait, where in BG2 do you miss out on loot for fiddling with the difficulty? PM me or Spoiler-tag it if it's sensitive, I didn't know about this. Thanks.

@Madhax

Planar Sphere. Some of the feral halfling would disappear with their loot, including some unique items. I don't remember now which items, but if you want to know more I can check the BG2 install on my old computer later on.

griever0483

Erg said:

Madhax said:

Wait, where in BG2 do you miss out on loot for fiddling with the difficulty? PM me or Spoiler-tag it if it's sensitive, I didn't know about this. Thanks.

@Madhax

Planar Sphere. Some of the feral halfling would disappear with their loot, including some unique items. I don't remember now which items, but if you want to know more I can check the BG2 install on my old computer later on.

I didn't know it... please can you tell me more, @Erg ?

Madhax

@Erg Interesting, thanks for that. Don't trouble yourself to check the items for my sake, I'll probably be at the sphere myself fairly soon in my current BG2 game.

Erg

Madhax said:

@Erg Interesting, thanks for that. Don't trouble yourself to check the items for my sake, I'll probably be at the sphere myself fairly soon in my current BG2 game.

@Madhax, @griever0483

I've just checked anyway. These are the only ones I know, but there may be more:

==================================
Creature -> Loot
-----------------------------------------------
Necre -> Stiletto of Demarchess +2 (unique dagger)
Taibela -> no loot
==================================

They destroy themselves at the lowest difficulty level (novice), but they are still present at normal or higher

Lemernis

Playing Core Rules I admit that I make a regular practice of quicksaving before the level-up. If it's a really dismal result I'll have a go at it again. I don't get carried away, though. Maybe a few reloads just to get at least some fairly decent HP.

Once you develop some tactical proficiency (mainly: becoming a smart spellcaster), and learn what gear helps each character the most, it really isn't necessary to worry about maximizing HP.

reedmilfam

It might be cheese to do so, but I disagree. A roll of 1 for HP is ridiculous from my perspective and it seems to happen a lot. I've never liked linear HP for this reason (stats are 3d6, making a mid roll very likely). I'd like HP to be similar.

Lemernis

There is a way to ensure maximum HP on level-ups. On the game settings screen you can temporarily move the difficulty slider to Normal (middle left) just for the level up, and it will automatically confer maximum HP. Then after leveling change the slider back to Core Rules (middle).

Oxford_Guy

Lemernis said:

There is a way to ensure maximum HP on level-ups. On the game settings screen you can temporarily move the difficulty slider to Normal (middle left) just for the level up, and it will automatically confer maximum HP. Then after leveling change the slider back to Core Rules (middle).

I don't understand why people want maximum HP, the game isn't *that* hard on Core! If you're finding it is, then play on "normal"...

TJ_Hooker

Oxford_Guy said:

Lemernis said:

There is a way to ensure maximum HP on level-ups. On the game settings screen you can temporarily move the difficulty slider to Normal (middle left) just for the level up, and it will automatically confer maximum HP. Then after leveling change the slider back to Core Rules (middle).

I don't understand why people want maximum HP, the game isn't *that* hard on Core! If you're finding it is, then play on "normal"...

Probably the same reason some people spend a lot of time when rolling stats; they like making their character as powerful as they can. Personally, I prefer having game difficulty be decided by how poweful my enemies are, rather than by how weak my PC is. I could make a minimum stats/random HP character and play on Easy, or a max stats/max HP character and play on Insane, and while both options might be similar in difficulty (at least in theory), I would find the latter much more satisfying.

atcDave

Oxford_Guy said:

Lemernis said:

There is a way to ensure maximum HP on level-ups. On the game settings screen you can temporarily move the difficulty slider to Normal (middle left) just for the level up, and it will automatically confer maximum HP. Then after leveling change the slider back to Core Rules (middle).

I don't understand why people want maximum HP, the game isn't *that* hard on Core! If you're finding it is, then play on "normal"...

The frustration of a really lousy roll when levels are hard to come by can be VERY high!

IWD does offer a max HP on level up option that doesn't otherwise affect difficulty, I like that. Most PNP games I play in allow some mechanism for getting better rolls; one DM I know just automatically allows re-rolls on 1s or 2s. I always allow players to re-roll any time they want, on the next die smaller (don't like your d8 roll? Feel free to try again on a d6, but there's no going back if you do!)
Normally when I level up in BG I only accept rolls in the upper half of the die. So if my fighter gets a 5 or less I'll reload and try again. That way, I see more variety than just straight 10s, but still get a reasonably good total too.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

As a beginner with a keen interest in GameDesign and PlayBalance- IMHO, HP gain on levelling should not involve % at all. An adjusted Max HP should be awarded at each Level.

Adjustments could be made for some or all of the following Game facts as Comp decides.
1.A penalty for actions violating alignment that were not reflected in Rep...a debatable point--e.g.Killing the Mercenary in S.Beregost if you are playing Lawful-Neutral Good or indiscriminate Looting.
2.Each failed Morale Check on the previous level.
3.Each Ressurection on the previous level.
4.Each time a Party Member disbanded Him/herself or any Interparty Violence on the previous level.
5. Bonus for achieving certain goals ahead of expected date...
6. Bonus for achieving +3Rep on previous level [very welcome for Multiclass PC]
7. Bonus For each Level when Party Members at beginning and end are the same?

That sort of stuff. Just off the top of my head...

atcDave

Eadwyn those are some intriguing ideas, but in most cases that's way too complex. Some of your examples ARE implemented in PNP (like loosing a point of constitution from Raise Dead, it's a more indirect mechanism, bit it will eventually impact hit points). It might work if you were awarding bonuses or penalties for good or bad examples of role playing or alignment behavior (although usually such awards and penalties are applied to experience earned, not hit points). But in my experience codifying such things slows game-play down way too much in PNP, and I don't like the idea of adding so much to the core rules.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

Not intended as actual suggested add-ons to BG. More of a refinement to my basic postion that the high variability of HP gain is a hard-to-explain weakness of ADD in general as an RPG system...

In the context of 1)-Lowering Game Play setting when Levelling to insure MaxHP. 2)-Rerolling until you get something Par or better. 3)-Taking the best of 5 rolls. 4)- Playing the cards you are dealt.

@atcDave: This is not, for me, a matter of Right/Wrong. Just the sort of fine tuning/Design stuff I like to think about. While still blown away by the Whole RPG-world that GaryGygax et al imagined...

RnRClown

Lemernis said:

There is a way to ensure maximum HP on level-ups. On the game settings screen you can temporarily move the difficulty slider to Normal (middle left) just for the level up, and it will automatically confer maximum HP. Then after leveling change the slider back to Core Rules (middle).

I will follow this train of thought when it is time to level-up. I like to play on core rules, but the roll of a dice HP gains can be cruel. I may alternate between odd levels and even levels to maintain a balance.

Level 1: Maximum HP (Normal)
Level 2: Random HP (Core)
Level 3: Maximum HP (Normal)
Level 4: Random HP (Core)

JuliusBorisov

It is connected with the difficulty you choose.

I always play on the insane level and think that to have a max HP per level as well as good stats from the start is not OP. Also, I never move the difficulty slider, so to get max HP I save/load till I get the proper result. The time spent on such levelling up makes up for the result someone tends to call cheese. Even if I play a no-reload game, I use the same method.

The big amount of HP and good stats won't help you to survive a hold-person effect or some nasty traps.

I mean, these things don't have a big influence on the success of your no-reload play. Usually the reason of the death of the main character is not his little amount of HP or small stats but a mistake and (or) self-confidence.

Oxford_Guy

bengoshi said:

It is connected with the difficulty you choose.

I always play on the insane level and think that to have a max HP per level as well as good stats from the start is not OP. Also, I never move the difficulty slider, so to get max HP I save/load till I get the proper result. The time spent on such levelling up makes up for the result someone tends to call cheese. Even if I play a no-reload game, I use the same method.

The big amount of HP and good stats won't help you to survive a hold-person effect or some nasty traps.

I mean, these things don't have a big influence on the success of your no-reload play. Usually the reason of the death of the main character is not his little amount of HP or small stats but a mistake and (or) self-confidence.

So if it doesn't make a big difference, why reload on level-up? ;-)

JuliusBorisov

It's a part of my gameplay. I like to look at such attributes and think something like "Not bad, for the child of Bhaal, not bad at all".

Sarevok has good stats. He's a son of the god too . So the main character can have high stats because of his nature. When you take NPC into your party at the moment they join you they have max HP. For example, the devs even changed Dorn's starting HP in one of the patches. So, it doesn't contradict the game when you give max hp to your char.

TJ_Hooker

bengoshi said:

It's a part of my gameplay. I like to look at such attributes and think something like "Not bad, for the child of Bhaal, not bad at all".

Sarevok has good stats. He's a son of the god too . So the main character can have high stats because of his nature. When you take NPC into your party at the moment they join you they have max HP. For example, the devs even changed Dorn's starting HP in one of the patches. So, it doesn't contradict the game when you give max hp to your char.

The only time NPCs have max HP is if you get them at level 1, which is because all characters automatically get max HP at first level. That's why they fixed Dorn, because IIRC he only had 7 HP at level 1. NPCs will have less than optimal HP when you get them at higher levels.

JuliusBorisov

Thanks for the clarification! I've tried to take NPCs into the pary at level 1.

After importing the character into BG2 his HP (if maxed in BG:EE) will be lower. But in the same time if you create a character with simular stats in BG2, he'll have max HP. The latter makes me think I have a right to give the main character max HP every level.

Eadwyn_G8keeper

@TJHooker - it is well observed however that NPCs, Branwen and Viconia for example, show very different profiles re LevellingHPs when recruited at higher levels. At levels 2 and 4 when recruited Branwen has 17HP[Max=18 or 38[Max =40]* while Viconia fares much more poorly with 12[Max=16 or 18[Max=32].

*Info from a nameless Walkthrough which reported Viconia's Level 4 stats [described as only 2 below Max] as being her Level 5 stats. ???

In the game this makes for an interesting trade-off between:
A.Viconia's 'Tank-esquetude' and the perhaps necessary benefit she receives from prompt recruitment by players adopting some mode more lenient than Unadjusted Core and
B. The possibility of playing with only 4NPCs until ready to recruit Branwen and head for the Mines which essentially boosts the total XP of the party by 20%. Which leads to...
C. If playing straight Core it makes much less difference whether Viconia is recruited in Chapter 1, 2 or even 3...


[Note: Recruiting Jaheira-Khalid-Kivan and then Viconia makes a sensible plot-line for my CG-FM as exploring Peldvale can easily be explained as an early response to Kivan's motives after completing Landrin's Quest. Once Ajantis has been recruited I cannot see him readily accepting the Peldvale Plate Mail if he was on-scene. Perhaps he might consider it purified once 500GP is donated to Helm at the Temple in Nashkel. Interesting sub-plot!!].

What this suggests to me is that choosing different modes of determining HPLevelling for different NPCs and Charname already seems to be present in the game without explanation and can serve as a fine-tuning device for my God-in-the-Machine tendencies... Olla!

Gallowglass

@Erg: wow, that was something I didn't know about BG2, thanks for the info. I've never played at novice level, but IMO

the Stiletto of Demarchess

is pretty much the best dagger in SoA because of

its 20% stun effect.

Losing it would be a significant penalty for any dagger-wielding character.