How good is a cleric/mage dual?

RedWizard

I'd like to try something new this time and I'm not really a fan of multiclassing.
Clerics have a fast xp progression and very nice spells for BG1, and you'll be swimming in level 1-4 spell slots from 18-21 WIS + Ring of Sune, which you get quite early.
I guess you'd have to dual at level 7 if you still want to get your cleric abilities back in BG1 right? So, is dualing at 7 worth it or just a waste of time?
Also, will a cleric 7/mage X Charname still be decent in BG2? I can see dualing at higher levels as a better option, but I'd rather not have to wait until BG2 to dual...

Aranthys

Rather than a dual class, I'd play these as a multiclass.
Sure, you only get cleric 7 / Wizard 7 instead of Cleric 7 / Wizard 8, but the only thing you'll be missing is a level 3 spell and a level 4 spell, and for that, you do not have to suffer an inactive class and a sucky mage for ~30% of the game.

Edit.: Regarding your original question, yes, Cleric / Mages are great to play, there's a lot of possibilities with this combo in BG2.
In BG1, it's a bit limited, but still very nice

Wanderon

I agree that multiclass would be a much better option for C/M - by the time you dual to mage the only thing your character would have going for it would be decent hps for the next several levels and would be of little use to the party during this time. Multiclass on the other hand would continue to grow stronger all through BG1 & 2 and the progression is not all that much slower than a single class of either.

mjs

if you were to dual class, i'd do either the Priest of Talos (for extra lightning bolts and the excellent Storm Shield) or Priest of Lothander (for the hold undead and Boon of Lothander, which would stack well when buffing and going on the front line) and wait till level 10, so you get an extra SS or BoL, you have the Word of Power spell (good for front line buffing) and some decent lower level healing spells.

but in the end, i'd still multi and probably as a gnome C/I.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

ReadingRambo

I couldn't imagine doing a dual class as c/m but as a multi they are tons of fun. Being able to use spell sequencer and contingency with clerical spells makes for some potent combinations

atcDave

I would prefer to multi-class this combination, but dualing should work fine too. It's a natural combination as both classes can function well behind the lines, and adding the cleric weapon restrictions is actually an improvement for the Mage. Going into BG2 you'll basically have a single class Mage (VERY useful in that game!) with some extra hit points and a lot of extra healing/buffing spells. Not bad thing at all!

Ignatius

A Cleric/Mage has access to both spheres and almost every spell that exist in the game. That is powerful by itself. Not only is he extremely versatile, but there are exciting combos when you start mixing both spell books. There are also equipment advantages over mages (helmet, shield for instance).

RedWizard

I know about how multiclassing is better guys, but that's out of the question since I want to play as a human, which is why the dual classing question.

[Deleted User]

Whenever you are thinking about starting in a spellcasting class and dual-classing away from it, you have to ask yourself what you're trying to get from the starting class. Generally, you need to focus on spells which are not heavily reliant on caster level (since yours will be frozen at a low point) and which provide effects that are useful to your second class. For instance, there are several low level Cleric spells that provide effects that could be useful to a Mage: Doom, Command, Sanctuary, Silence, and Chant are all examples of these. Since these all function independently of caster level (except Silence, which probably lasts long enough even with a low caster level), and since you get bonus spells for Wisdom, you'll have enough spell slots to make use of them even with only a few levels of Cleric (you can get 5 or 6 and still be able to hit Mage 9).

If you're looking at Animate Dead or Holy Smite, on the other hand, you may as well multiclass, since otherwise you won't be able to manage a good enough caster level to keep these relevant long term.

moopy

21 Wild Mage / 25 Cleric

RedWizard

It was more along the lines of having some utility spells from the cleric list that are good even without caster level, like you said. The last time I played BG2 I found I could really use another cleric besides Viconia, mostly for level 1-4 spells, especially since I like to keep rest to a minimum. And considering I'm not fond of Anomen, Jaheira or Aerie, I'd like to try a cleric/mage dual for once.
I know saving the dual for later to get more 5th-7th spells in cleric could be decent, but I find having to wait that damn long too boring.

Bercon

IMO there is no point in dual classing away from caster class ever. This includes C/M. What you get is some crappy low level cleric spells that are useful in BG1 sure, but in BG2 when you start getting high level mage spells it is just much more worth while casting those. You have limited amount spells per battle, if it lasts 10 rounds, you can cast 10 spells. Do you really waste those on low level clerical spells? Also, you'll lose on 1 spell slot per level because you cannot be specialist or you lose on some other nice dual classing options which simply benefit you a lot more than few cleric spells.

Multi classing C/M is of course strong, because you get the high level spells of both.

moopy

@Bercon

A dualed 21 Wild Mage / 25 Cleric is better than a Multi 20 Mage / 25 Cleric. One more mage level and an extra spell slot per mage level for being specialized. And you can Nahal's Reckless cleric spells.

All you have to do is get 4125000 xp on your wild mage, and then get 3150000 on your cleric and you get your levels back. So once you reach 7.275 million xp you can start playing both your classes. Maybe even in time for the final battle in ToB.

ReadingRambo

RedWizard said:

I know about how multiclassing is better guys, but that's out of the question since I want to play as a human, which is why the dual classing question.

I would Shadowkeeper him as a multi then. It's not like they are more powerful than a half elf cleric mage, they don't have 30 percent sleep charm resist nor infra vision (which admittedly isn't very useful). Still, it's only a cosmetic change really, so if u are set on human for RP purposes than make him a multi.

You are a special human, so I've never had trouble justifying a human multi class.

Ignatius

@RedWizard: ok, understand now about the dual-classing. Besides what I have said about helmet & shield (which is VERY nice to have for a mage in BG2), but also weapon access and even armor, only looking at spells lvl.1-4 meaning a dual-class from Cleric at lvl.7 (which at 55K is a key level for a Cleric: unlocks lvl.4 spells, +2 THAC0, reduced saving throws, +1 weapon proficiency), these are the ones which IMO could be useful to a mage for quite a while and which are not dependant on caster's level:

- all healing spells (one for each of lvl.1/3/4)
- Command, Doom, Remove Fear, Sanctuary (lvl.1)
- Chant, DUHM, Silence (lvl.2)
- Strength of One (lvl.3)
- Death Ward, Defensive Harmony, Lesser Restoration, Neutralize Poison, Negative Plane Protection, PfE 10' Radius (lvl.4)

That is a nice support list for a mage to have, with: healing/self-party buffs/a few disablers and the awesome Sanctuary.

One issue though: the buffs will be easily removed by a dispel magic cast by a high level caster, since they would have been cast from lvl.7 Cleric.

[Deleted User]

@Bercon Keep in mind also that you can slot your low level Cleric spells into spell sequencers. Doom + Glitterdust in a spell-sequencer is a nice opener for Save or Suck attacks, and doesn't give one fig what your Cleric caster level is. Furthermore, you're not going to be bombarding the enemy with high level mage spells every combat of the day. Casting a Silence spell on that pack of Druids is a good way to nullify them without wasting a bunch of Cloudkills.

Personally, I prefer the multiclass. But a Cleric->Mage dual-class provides your Mage with extra hitpoints and weapon options (better than Thief, not as good as Fighter) along with some utility that synergizes well with your high level Mage spells (a Mage with Greater Malison, Glitterdust, Doom, AND Chant has much better options for debuffing saves before that Charm/Hold/Instant Death spell than a single-classed Mage).

I don't think I'd ever dual away from Mage, though; crappy hit points, and low level Mage spells tend to either expire quickly, or are cripplingly reliant on caster level to be effective.

RedWizard

Well, being easily dispelled isn't really a problem to me, from my experience in BG2 even my pure casters had their spells easily dispelled anyway... or maybe that was from that SCSII mod or something.

[Deleted User]

@RedWizard Considering my Blade has to expect that a few of his buffs will disappear every time an enemy spellcaster throws a dispel his way, I'd be inclined to agree.

lunar

Oh that's my current new character! I dualed at lvl 3 cleric to wild mage (with SK, and added +1 spell per level via affects ot it won't work)

While a multi is very viable in long term, a dual is interesting as my character will end up as powerful as a mage can get in BG1, with quite a lot of bonuses: extra hp, weapon/shield usage, good save vs death/poison, and level 1-2 cleric spells. All with only a measly xp spent in cleric class. And lvl 1-2 cleric spells are the best:cure wounds, doom, command, remove fear, hold person, silence, slow poison. And unless I am mistaken my character will be able to cast 5th lvl mage spells too. (Still mage lvl3 with cleric inactive) I love this build, essentially I am a single classed mage with some good clerical tricks up his sleeve. A full mage being able to cast four cure light wounds/day (not counting Bhaal abilities) and wield a mean flail/shield (though my char would need a str boost) with a few extra hp and better save vs poison. I love that ^^

Quartz

moopy said:

A dualed 21 Wild Mage / 25 Cleric is better than a Multi 20 Mage / 25 Cleric. One more mage level and an extra spell slot per mage level for being specialized. And you can Nahal's Reckless cleric spells.

All you have to do is get 4125000 xp on your wild mage, and then get 3150000 on your cleric and you get your levels back. So once you reach 7.275 million xp you can start playing both your classes. Maybe even in time for the final battle in ToB.

This post is dripping with sarcasm and I love it.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Fardragon

It illustrates the point though. If you are going to dual class a caster you need to consider your final level and change classes as close to the half way point as possible, otherwise your first class will be gimped.

RedWizard

subtledoctor said:

Is powergaming all that matters?? Is a cleric/mage dual not going to be able to pull his weight? Of course not, he'll be fine. A pure mage is totally viable and a cleric/mage dual is better in almost every way, except for the short time in mid-BG1 when catching up in mage levels. And even then, your handful of Magic Missiles and Acid Arrows will be plenty useful for the party, especially when supplemented by the Wands of MM, Fire, Fear, and Monster Summoning, plus whatever extra scrolls you have.

Beyond that, I like it from a role-playing perspective. Especially with the Divine Remix mod installed (hopefully to be available with EE soon), which lets you play as a priest of Oghma - that is after all how you were raised, in the shadow of the Temple of Oghma at Candlekeep. That kit meshes well with mages; if you dual at level 7 you end up with an extra casting of Secret Word, which is useful for a fair portion of SoA.

This is exactly what I have in mind for this character, which is why I also want human and will go with just... default cleric instead of choosing a kit, as I don't really like any of the 3 gods you can have. Oghma would be awesome, especially since he's the kind of god that allows pretty much everything so long as you don't hoard knowledge.

[Deleted User]

Fardragon said:

It illustrates the point though. If you are going to dual class a caster you need to consider your final level and change classes as close to the half way point as possible, otherwise your first class will be gimped.

I think it rather illustrates the point that if you powergame with only what your character will look like at the very end of their career in mind, you end up with something that sucks to play through for a significant portion of it.

Furthermore, nobody cares about their first class being "gimped" in any dual-class combination. It's all about the second class and what those few levels in the first class add to it.

moopy

I just thought I was being a sarcastic ass.

But apparently I meant several smart things to different people.

Though now I want to play a wild mage / cleric to wild surge cleric spells.

Mathmick

The problem with dual-classing here is because Clerics and Mages both scale off their level rather than items. Spell slots, spell damage and spell duration all only consider the caster's level for their effects.

Once you dual out of one or the other you end up with a few low-levelled spells that sit there collecting dust while you're playing with excessive damage, guaranteed CC and throwing celebration parties for your enemies with demon lap-dancers.

The possible alternative is to dual at level 14 Cleric, but the frustration there is that you get the awesome-superb-amazing tier of Divine Spellcasting, only to have it snatched away while you go grind some more.

You want to dual at level 7 Cleric. These are the advantages I can see from dualing away at that point:

-You can wear armour. (yeahhhh... woo?)
-You can use helmets/shields
-You have more HP
-You have broader weapon selection.
-Gain Level 4 Cleric spells.

To be completely honest I'm not sold on the idea of it past BG:EE. In BG:EE you're pretty much max level in both of your classes, but in BG2:EE you are a Fighter/Mage with a bit less HP and slightly worse THAC0, with a few light shows to make up for it.

The real question is what do you want to gain from adding the cleric levels? Most I could see is that you get to be creative with your Spell Sequencers and Contingency every now and again. As awesome as that could be, it's probably only going to be a Slow Poison on Poisoned or Cure Serious Wounds on 50% HP.

Nevertheless, just because I don't feel it would be that effective doesn't mean you'll have the same problem. Just go for it. If it works it works. If not then not.

moopy

I think the main point is the OP doesn't want to be a Cleric Mage, to be a Cleric Mage you REALLY need to multi.

It sounds like he wants to be a mage with some low level cleric abilities.

Nifft

moopy said:

It sounds like he wants to be a mage with some low level cleric abilities.

He'd get those for free just by having a high Reputation.

EDIT: I agree with earlier poster, a Gnome Cleric/Illusionist can be great.

Kaltzor

The thing with Cleric/Mage multi/dual is spellcasting... While you can have access to most spells in the game, you can only use one spell per turn, either a mage or priest one... And mage can't cast spells while in armor other than robes so that bonus from cleric goes away.

In parties I personally find them usually ending up being used more as a mage or more as a cleric and the other part mostly ignored.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.