Cleric/Ranger is insane in BG because Rangers should not be getting access to some of the spheres that they are.
To this day I don't know why Ranger sphere access is not correct.
It's house rules I guess. BG doesn't seem to follow the core rules exactly in many cases.
They did work spheres in for Druids (Cleric does not have access to some spells) but the Ranger part was possibly because Rangers would otherwise have a small selection of spells with BG at a low cap, they never would of got anything beyond level 1 anyways. The bad part is that caries over to Ranger/Cleric, where Rangers get Druid spells basically. It's overpowered.
Cleric/Ranger is insane in BG because Rangers should not be getting access to some of the spheres that they are.
To this day I don't know why Ranger sphere access is not correct.
It's house rules I guess. BG doesn't seem to follow the core rules exactly in many cases.
They did work spheres in for Druids (Cleric does not have access to some spells) but the Ranger part was possibly because Rangers would otherwise have a small selection of spells with BG at a low cap, they never would of got anything beyond level 1 anyways. The bad part is that caries over to Ranger/Cleric, where Rangers get Druid spells basically. It's overpowered.
I think you're correct. I do know per official rules the Ranger could only choose from the plant and animal spheres, which is a pretty small list. And BG only has a small number of spells from every level, it's entirely possible there aren't even some for certain levels.
When BG1 was designed it wasn't a big deal because a Ranger/Cleric would not level that high. But in BG2 it becomes a big deal as the Ranger gets all the good Druid only spells.
I think he meant suck as a Cleric and a Mage. Which it would compared to a C/M multi.
He will be superior as a mage to a C/M multiclass.
For example, at 3.5M the C/M is level 14 mage and has 0 8th or 9th level spells, 1 level 7 spell and 2 level 6 spells. That character is 2.5 million experience away from 9th level spells and 4 million experience from capping out on most scaling spells.
At 3.5M XP, the dual C/M who dualed at say level 7 (access to 1st - 4th level cleric spells) is a level 19 mage who can cast any mage spell in the game (including a choice between 2 of the HLA spells) and has 1 9th level spell, 3 8th level spells, 3 7th level spells and 3 6th level spells. He is just over .3M away from capping out on most scaling spells.
I get the argument that the blend of mage and cleric spells is such that you can argue access to the level 7 cleric spells (1 at 3.5M XP) is better than the high level mage spells but that is close enough to be a matter of taste. (For me, dropping a chain contingency 3x horrid wilting on someone is probably better than any cleric spell for your typical battles. The 19th level mage can also replicate some cleric abilities like resurrection by using the planatar ability with raise dead and multiple heals or with the wish spell.)
The C/M only becomes objectively superior in the later stages of TOB after he crosses the 6M experience level and has access to all mage spells and mage HLA.
he wants to be a full Mage with some smaller Cleric powers.
Was the next part of that quote, so I guess we're in agreement?
I agree that he is a full mage with some smaller cleric powers. I disagreed that he would suck as a cleric and a mage (only as a cleric) and think that he would be so superior as a mage that it can be said to offset the loss of the multi-class cleric casting for 90%+ of the trilogy.
If significantly superior mage/woefully inferior cleric was where you were going, we are 100% on the same page.
Yeah... I meant suck as a (mage AND a cleric). (Compared to a multi C/M)
Not suck as a mage and suck as a cleric.
Fair enough!
I just think the difference is big enough on the mage side that someone can reasonably argue that the additional mage levels for the dual character offset or more than offset the weakness on cleric levels so it really amounts to comparably powerful characters. Superior mage/inferior cleric = balanced cleric/mage. Personally, I would view the dual character as less versatile but more powerful for a lot of the game but I am not the world's biggest fan of the cleric spell set. I only really love the versatility when you start busting out chain contingencies and sequencers.
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For example, at 3.5M the C/M is level 14 mage and has 0 8th or 9th level spells, 1 level 7 spell and 2 level 6 spells. That character is 2.5 million experience away from 9th level spells and 4 million experience from capping out on most scaling spells.
At 3.5M XP, the dual C/M who dualed at say level 7 (access to 1st - 4th level cleric spells) is a level 19 mage who can cast any mage spell in the game (including a choice between 2 of the HLA spells) and has 1 9th level spell, 3 8th level spells, 3 7th level spells and 3 6th level spells. He is just over .3M away from capping out on most scaling spells.
I get the argument that the blend of mage and cleric spells is such that you can argue access to the level 7 cleric spells (1 at 3.5M XP) is better than the high level mage spells but that is close enough to be a matter of taste. (For me, dropping a chain contingency 3x horrid wilting on someone is probably better than any cleric spell for your typical battles. The 19th level mage can also replicate some cleric abilities like resurrection by using the planatar ability with raise dead and multiple heals or with the wish spell.)
The C/M only becomes objectively superior in the later stages of TOB after he crosses the 6M experience level and has access to all mage spells and mage HLA.
If significantly superior mage/woefully inferior cleric was where you were going, we are 100% on the same page.
Not suck as a mage and suck as a cleric.
I just think the difference is big enough on the mage side that someone can reasonably argue that the additional mage levels for the dual character offset or more than offset the weakness on cleric levels so it really amounts to comparably powerful characters. Superior mage/inferior cleric = balanced cleric/mage. Personally, I would view the dual character as less versatile but more powerful for a lot of the game but I am not the world's biggest fan of the cleric spell set. I only really love the versatility when you start busting out chain contingencies and sequencers.