about NPC mods
Xavioria
Member Posts: 874
After finally completing my first (albeit quite simple) NPC mod for BG:EE I started getting a HEAPload of ideas, and was wondering about the thoughts of the community. SO, here's the poll, and this will influence my next creation which will probably be terrible (therefore not shared because I'm not actually a modder... YET) but I was wondering on everyone's opinions nevertheless.
What Kinds of NPC mods does everyone like (All being well written of course)
What Kinds of NPC mods does everyone like (All being well written of course)
- about NPC mods77 votes
- NPCs HAVE to follow the guidelines of the game, no illegalities.9.09%
- NPCs can be illegal class/race or alignment or kitted multiclass as long as it makes good sense62.34%
- NPCs can be illegal, but ONLY if there is some sort of balancing factor (stats or whatever)19.48%
- I don't like NPC mods whatsoever9.09%
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Comments
Coran is an AMAZING archer, but can't really get any better than he already is, is pretty weak outside of archery and can't make use of the new compound bows.
Kagain can take a hit like nobody else... but his STR is so-so and without Gauntlets of Dexterity he's going to get hit a LOT.
On the other hand, if you make a Half-Orc Ranger/Priest of Lathander with 19 Str/Con, I'm unlikely to download your NPC mod or take it very seriously.
So as long as the NPC is a fair choice that doesn't overshadow other characters I might want or underperform and be better of dead I'd be willing to see whatever class/kit that makes sense for the character.
If I see a halfling paladin of a drow god, though, you might want to give me a reason to not laugh.
Every NPC should follow the rules of the game. No NPC should start equipped with a weapon that is too heavy, for example, and a single-class fighter shouldn't have mage spells in his spellbook. A multiclass thief/mage still can't wear plate armor, and can't cast spells when wearing anything more than a mage robe (unless it's of elvish make).
That said, an NPC is an opportunity. It's a chance to do something that the CharName can't. It's a chance, for example, to make a Cleric/Mage multiclass, or to give a character the ability to make his own ammunition, or to develop an interesting persona based on an unusually high (or unusually low) ability score. Viconia would be boring without Magic Resistance, because she would add nothing to the party that you couldn't get by creating a second PC. If you're not willing to bend the rules once in a while, then you have to ask yourself why you're creating an NPC in the first place.
That said, if the only reason you're creating an NPC is because of the cool mechanics involved, then the resulting character won't be very interesting to players and no one will use it. If your character is too powerful, then only a specific subset of players will use it, and not for very long at that. It's important to make sure that, for whatever strengths you give a character, those strengths are not so potent as to remove the challenge from the game.
All that being said, I tend to be very skeptical of NPC mods in general, in the same way that I tend to be skeptical of fan fiction. Some of it's very good, and all of it has required a lot of work, but none of it is canon, which means that most of the time it sticks out like a sore thumb. More important to me than any part of the character's mechanics is how it fits into the story and the world of the game.
If the character fills a plot hole or a gap in storytelling, then it can be valuable. If the character is nothing more than a cameo designed to make a few people chuckle and a lot of people groan, then that can be valuable too. If the character tries to do too much more than either of those things, it runs the risk of trying to be its own story. Which is fine and good, but then it's going to stick out to me as something that "doesn't fit".
I hate, hate, hate NPCs that hijack the story too much. ...those NPCs, I want to trick into saying Luthic's name. Out loud. Fifty times. And then have them kiss a leper. They live so long as I tolerate it.
One thing I found really cool about the Icewind Dale NPC Project, was how you could choose an NPC's classes from a list of likely candidates -- like Teri, a half-elven Fighter/Thief who could just as likely be a Thief, Mage/Thief or Fighter/Mage/Thief. I also like it when NPCs come with cool, optional perks! Though some of the banter accelerators might have given my Nalia Romance mod a minor tummyache...
If I don't like somebody's character or mod, I just don't download the mod, and leave it at that. If I don't like somebody's character or mod after I install it, I skirt the content. Same with stuff that affects official NPCs.
I absolutely adore NPCs like Finch and Indira, because they strike me as being believable, and I just like them. Same with Keto, and Aurora. I love Aurora. I...I want to hug whoever thought that mod up, it's a lot of fun.
I like the ones that add to the story line and RP experience
like the Nalia Romance mod
What I don't like is bad writing and that does include ridicolously overpowered personal items. Solaufein's sword comes to mind. I do like NPCs with personal items if they are equal in power to items a PC can get, and if the items aren't so insanely awesome that you would be stupid to ever switch them out. This limits NPCs in my opinion because it takes away their versatility and the fun to try out different strategies with them. For example, an NPC coming with a personal mace and 5 pips in maces, and it's the best mace in the game, you wouldn't do yourself any favors by giving the NPC a different weapon. They would always do worse.
Keto's non-removables were sort of neat, and so are the personal items that belong to Finch and Indira, but here I go again, with those three...
I really like NPCs having non-removable items, to a point where I make them with Shadowkeeper for NPCs that have none (Xzar's skull friend), even if they serve no other purpose than giving the NPC more personality. If it came down to a choice between "personal item that boosts 5 stats (sword with cool name)" or "personal item that boosts 1 skill (funniest-looking helm ever)", I'd take the unique/funny item any day.
And, yes, nonsensical class/race combos could potentially disrupt that as well. Ultimately, though, I'm way more likely to forgive a dwarven druid/mage in an NPC mod than I am a human fighter with 1000 lines of dialogue and a portrait that stands out from across the room.
I'm currently playing with Valen right now. She's pretty strong, but I find that her being a vampire is counterbalanced by her being a vampire. She can punch things and drain levels from them, but only to a certain extent (so far?); if you need her to hit something immune to +2 weapons, give her something with a higher enchantment or teach her to dual-wield if for some reason you don't want to swap out. She can still love-tap mooks!
While you're not on the unicorn, let me ride it a bit: my dream mod has "mentor paths", where charname can become the student of an NPC with a similar class, leading to a reward for both (i.e. completing a path for a mage who becomes Xzar's student gives both charname and Xzar +1 int, like a tome). It would have dialogues stretched out by chapters, be limited to one mentor per charname and only be offered by single class NPCs. It always made sense to me that a 20 years old sheltered charname who just lost Gorion would look for guidance.
I'm aware of an NPC sorcerer mod (Kelsey?) that is generally touted as being well balanced by having a kickass class paired with average stats.
Variety/options are often better than pure power. Shar-Teel makes a great thief dual for example, but an average fighter. A human fighter with 15 str and 17 int & dex would open up a lot of options, for example.
There are always limits, of course. The class/race issue for example has very little impact, but something like exceptionally high stats on an NPC can quickly turn OP and sour the experience. On the other hand, it can also greatly improve it. Take Minsc for example: his Berserk ability is out of class, but it's not OP and it fits well with his overall character and story. Such minor details spice up an already far too bland world and are imo a welcome addition, provided they are done right.
MODEST SPOILERS
I love the Valen mod - it is my favorite NPC mod for (a) fitting the story pretty well, (b) not overwhelming the PC, and (c) helping me to play an evil (or at least non-good) play through. I do find the claws become OP'd, though, so I typically have her wield daggers so she doesn't shred opponents by massive level drain. (Her claws ramp up in enchantment and level drain over time). A naturally regenerating F/T is a great character even without the level drain and the perma death on higher difficulties is a nice RP feature.
That quote is the beginning and end of the answer to this poll, and I don't think I'm alone in that belief. As others have said, most of us don't balk at official game NPCs that break the rules.
The thing is, the options you list tend to be correlated with bad writing.
If there's something illegal, but there has clearly been some thought given to balancing that character's power compared to the PC and other NPCs, that usually means we're entering somebody's fan fiction world, but the author is at least conscious of not wanting to let that NPC dominate the story. That's not bad, and if the official NPCs are any indication, these can wind up being people's favorite NPCs in the game. But the more min/max that balancing act gets, the worse the writing will be ("To compensate for this character's 25 Dexterity, we will have her die instantly if you tell her you don't like her new haircut. BALANCE!")
If there's something illegal that is obviously overpowered, it's virtually guaranteed that the writing will be terrible, either because the character is a Mary Sue, or because the author was more interested in creating the illegal class/stats than in creating the character/story. If you see a Kensai/Assasin multi-class half-orc, I personally guarantee it's a terrible NPC mod.
I also make a distinction between an illegal class/combo for a race (Elf cleric/mage, Dwarf Bard, ), and a unique race (Avariel, Tiefling, Half-Demon, Centaur, Mer-man). Illegal classes or class combos are usually easier to swallow, but unique races are much harder to pull off. The official NPCs have an easier time pulling it off for two reasons:
1. There's only a few of them. The more incredibly rare and out of place NPCs you get, the more their supposed rarity begins to turn your party into a zoo. When you walk into a bar with a half-orc, a tiefling, an avariel, and two drows, that should be the setup of a joke. But in this scenario, it just means you've decided to roll with Dorn, Haer'Dalis, Aerie, Viconia, and Baeloth. The punchline is that nobody in the bar acts like there's anything weird about that.
So why do the official NPCs get a pass, and mod NPCs don't? Because the official NPCs were there first. So it's the mod NPCs that get the response of, "Enough already! HOW ABOUT YOU MAKE A DWARF, A GNOME, OR A HALFLING INSTEAD?"
2. The developers got to create the world that these characters fit into. Mod NPCs have to be shoehorned in. Often this means they get shoved into somebody else's storyline, where they proceed to either trample all over that storyline (which is off-putting), or be an afterthought (which isn't fun).
Particulars where people are from different dimensions, and from heaven, or hell, or OMFG! What is so wrong about having an NPC that is in that world that was BORN there and is just trying to make a name or life for themselves?
Suffice to say that I don't even powergame with my CHARNAME let alone a custom made NPC. I was thinking of making a halfling Stalker (Thief turned woodsman (insert story plot here)), or maybe a Dwarf Druid (brother said something about one of Drizzt's companions). I personally want to include a Dwarf, Halfling, or Gnome that is sufficiently interesting and useful AND unique to the point where people will find them interesting and fun, yet still replaceable if they only want to use them in their party for a limited period of time.
Tha-ha-hank you!
Sounds well enough thought out, I say go for it!