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Investigating the Wizard Touch Attack Spells

ElderElder Member Posts: 14
I like to mix it up and use less-popular spells once in a while. Like everyone, I love Magic Missile, but I like some variety, too!

I've tried out the Level 1 and 2 touch attacks and found out they are actually better than expected and can be reasonably effective in some situations. The spell descriptions don’t accurately describe them nor do them justice, so I thought I’d report what I have found (and tested).

Shocking Grasp:
• +4 To Hit
• Counts as a Crushing attack, so modifiers to crushing attacks are applied
• Lasts only 1 round, so you get only one attack.
• Damage: 1d8 plus 1/level electrical damage (so for example a Level 5 mage would do 6-13)
(This one is definitely the weakest of the three)

Chill Touch
• + 5 To Hit (for some reason this one is a bit higher than the other two)
• Counts as a Piercing attack, so modifiers to piercing attacks are applied
• Lasts 10 rounds, so you get 10 attacks
• Damage: 1d3 physical plus 1d8 cold damage, for a total of 2-11 each hit. (Cold resistance blocks the cold damage, of course, but not the physical)
• Special effect: If hit, the target must make a saving throw or suffer -2 to his THACO (the penalty lasts 5 rounds)
• The cold damage goes through whether or not the target saves! (This is contrary to the spell description.)
• The physical damage is unaffected by strength modification, so there is no extra damage even if the caster has high strength.

Ghoul Touch
• +4 To Hit
• Counts as a Piercing attack, so modifiers to piercing attacks are applied
• Lasts 5 rounds, so you get 5 attacks
• No damage
• If hit, target must Save or be Paralyzed (for 5 rounds)

For all of these spells, I also discovered that increased Strength did not increase the To Hit chances (nor did it increase the damage, not even to Chill Touch, to my surprise, even though that spell inflicts some physical damage).

I also discovered that the game treats Ghoul Touch and Chill Touch as Piercing/Missile Damage, and Shocking Grasp as Crushing damage. Modifiers that affect these attack types get applied to your To Hit Chances. For example, if the target of Shocking Grasp is wearing the belt that gives +4 AC against Crushing attacks, the attack roll suffers a -4 penalty, giving the To Hit roll a net +0 modifier (+4 bonus for the spell, -4 penalty because it counts as a Crushing attack). Note that the various armors also have modifiers for different types of attacks. For example, wearing Splint applies a -2 penalty to Shocking Grasp To Hit chances, and -1 penalty to Chill and Ghoul Touch.

Also, if the target has a ranged weapon equipped when attacked, the To Hit roll gets the +4 bonus that is given to a melee attack when an opponent is holding a ranged weapon. Thus attacking an archer with Chill Touch gives you a +9 bonus To Hit.

I found Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch can be pretty useful, and a great way to mix it up and have a bit of fun. They are even more effective in the hands of a fighter/mage combos with better base THACO, of course, but even regular mages can find them useful. A good tactic is to attack opponents already engaged with your tanks. I have used Chill Touch quite effectively, especially early-mid game; 10 attacks at +5 To Hit and doing 2-11 is pretty excellent! And Ghoul Touch can be very useful in support of my tanks. 5 chances to paralyze isn’t bad!

Shocking Grasp is the weakest by far because it lasts only one round. It scales but Magic Missile is always a better choice: ranged attack that always hits, and generally for more damage. Thus I’d never choose it over Magic Missile, but at least the scrolls you find can be used instead of selling them, knowing they attack at +4. (Oddly, the spell description in the original BG1 and BG2 manuals says this spell was supposed to do 1-10 and never miss, unless the wizard was disrupted casting the spell. I’d love to see this spell tweaked so it wasn’t a total throw-away.)

Hope this helped a few of you!
Post edited by Elder on
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Comments

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited February 2013
    Thanks @Elder - that's really interesting, I only found out myself recently that the description for Chill Touch is wrong and that your enemy doesn't get a save vs. the 1-8 cold damage (it would be terrible otherwise) so it's actually not bad, not amazing, but useful in some situations. A few comments below:
    Elder said:

    I like to mix it up and use less-popular spells once in a while. Like everyone, I love Magic Missile, but I like some variety, too!

    I've tried out the Level 1 and 2 touch attacks and found out they are actually better than expected and can be reasonably effective in some situations. The spell descriptions don’t accurately describe them nor do them justice, so I thought I’d report what I have found (and tested).

    Shocking Grasp:
    • +4 To Hit
    • Counts as a Crushing attack, so modifiers to crushing attacks are applied
    • Lasts only 1 round, so you get only one attack.
    • Damage: 1d8 plus 1/level electrical damage (so for example a Level 5 mage would do 6-13)
    (This one is definitely the weakest of the three)

    Shocking Grasp is indeed pretty awful as it currently stands, though I'll cast it from a scroll (I think the casting Level is 5 or 6) at low character levels
    Elder said:


    Chill Touch
    • + 5 To Hit (for some reason this one is a bit higher than the other two)
    • Counts as a Piercing attack, so modifiers to piercing attacks are applied
    • Lasts 10 rounds, so you get 10 attacks

    If you're a level 7/x Fighter/Mage do you get an extra 1/2 attack per round with it (though a Level 7/x fighter/mage would probably not need this spell)? What about if you're Hasted or using the Oil of Speed - do you get an extra attack per round?

    If your initial attack is from Invisibility or stealth, do you get he +4 THAC0 bonus for the first attack?
    Elder said:


    • Damage: 1d3 physical plus 1d8 cold damage, for a total of 2-11 each hit. (Cold resistance blocks the cold damage, of course, but not the physical)
    • Special effect: If hit, the target must make a saving throw or suffer -2 to his THACO (the penalty lasts 5 rounds)
    • The cold damage goes through whether or not the target saves! (This is contrary to the spell description.)
    • The physical damage is unaffected by strength modification, so there is no extra damage even if the caster has high strength.


    Ghoul Touch
    • +4 To Hit
    • Counts as a Piercing attack, so modifiers to piercing attacks are applied
    • No damage
    • If hit, target must Save or be Paralyzed (for 5 rounds)

    How many Ghoul Touch attacks can you make with one casting, this isn't clear from the description. Does Ghoul Touch just last until the first hit you make or for multiple attacks over 5 rounds, for example?
    Elder said:


    For all of these spells, I also discovered that increased Strength did not increase the To Hit chances (nor did it increase the damage, not even to Chill Touch, to my surprise, even though that spell inflicts some physical damage).

    I also discovered that the game treats Ghoul Touch and Chill Touch as Piercing/Missile Damage, and Shocking Grasp as Crushing damage.

    Crushing damage is the most effective vs. plate armour, and piercing more so than slashing, so it's not all bad, though some enemies have piercing resistance - would that reduce the damage the physical attack does?
    Elder said:


    Modifiers that affect these attack types get applied to your To Hit Chances. For example, if the target of Shocking Grasp is wearing the belt that gives +4 AC against Crushing attacks, the attack roll suffers a -4 penalty, giving the To Hit roll a net +0 modifier (+4 bonus for the spell, -4 penalty because it counts as a Crushing attack). Note that the various armors also have modifiers for different types of attacks. For example, wearing Splint applies a -2 penalty to Shocking Grasp To Hit chances, and -1 penalty to Chill and Ghoul Touch.

    Also, if the target has a ranged weapon equipped when attacked, the To Hit roll gets the +4 bonus that is given to a melee attack when an opponent is holding a ranged weapon. Thus attacking an archer with Chill Touch gives you a +9 bonus To Hit.

    I found Chill Touch and Ghoul Touch can be pretty useful, and a great way to mix it up and have a bit of fun. They are even more effective in the hands of a fighter/mage combos with better base THACO, of course, but even regular mages can find them useful. A good tactic is to attack opponents already engaged with your tanks. I have used Chill Touch quite effectively, especially early-mid game; 10 attacks at +5 To Hit and doing 2-11 is pretty excellent! And Ghoul Touch can be very useful in support of my tanks. 5 chances to paralyze isn’t bad!

    My Jester (with only 15 Strength) has been using Chilltouch a bit, to reasonable effect. I've not found a Ghoul Touch scroll for him yet, though. I think for Bards (who need THAC0 help) they're not bad spells, though, if you can't avoid melee or your ranged options are not proving effective.
    Elder said:


    Shocking Grasp is the weakest by far because it lasts only one round. It scales but Magic Missile is always a better choice: ranged attack that always hits, and generally for more damage. Thus I’d never choose it over Magic Missile, but at least the scrolls you find can be used instead of selling them, knowing they attack at +4. (Oddly, the spell description in the original BG1 and BG2 manuals says this spell was supposed to do 1-10 and never miss, unless the wizard was disrupted casting the spell. I’d love to see this spell tweaked so it wasn’t a total throw-away.)

    Me too!
    Elder said:


    Hope this helped a few of you!

    Yes, Indeed!
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    BTW how does Vampiric Touch work, does that get a +x to hit or do you automatically hit? How long does it last - just for the first successful touch?
  • ElderElder Member Posts: 14
    My apologies for not remembering to add that Ghoul touch lasts 5 rounds, giving you 5 attacks. You can indeed paralyze 5 enemies (if you hit them all of course).

    I have not tested hasted or high level fighters to see if extra attacks are possible. It would be interesting to find out, and I may test that sometime. Nor have I tested attacking from stealth/invis.

    Vampiric Touch works differently. It's very similar to Larloch's Drain. You cast it on an enemy. It always hits. Unlike Larloch's, however, the caster will move adjacent to the target when the spell is cast (to touch the target). The target loses HP's and you gain HP's. The spell description says it lasts 5 turns, but that is so long I haven't tested it to confirm.

  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Elder said:

    My apologies for not remembering to add that Ghoul touch lasts 5 rounds, giving you 5 attacks. You can indeed paralyze 5 enemies (if you hit them all of course).

    Thanks, nice if you've cast Doomed or Greater Malison on them first, or if they're covered in Glitterdust (-4 to saves)
    Elder said:


    I have not tested hasted or high level fighters to see if extra attacks are possible. It would be interesting to find out, and I may test that sometime. Nor have I tested attacking from stealth/invis.

    If you do, could you post here? I'd be very interested to know...
    Elder said:


    Vampiric Touch works differently. It's very similar to Larloch's Drain. You cast it on an enemy. It always hits. Unlike Larloch's, however, the caster will move adjacent to the target when the spell is cast (to touch the target). The target loses HP's and you gain HP's. The spell description says it lasts 5 turns, but that is so long I haven't tested it to confirm.

    Could be useful for a fighter/mage or a solo mage or sorcerer (or bard, come to that) who has limited ways to heal
  • ElderElder Member Posts: 14
    Just tested, and yes, you get an additional +4 To Hit if invisible. (It was easy for me to test with an Invisibility potion.) You have to cast Chill or Ghoul touch first, then go invisible, then attack. (Drinking the potion uses up one round of the spell.) So for example, I cast Chill Touch, drank an Invis potion, then attacked and got +9 To Hit.
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    What about the summoned weapon spells like Phantom Blade, Spiritual Hammer, and Black Blade of Disaster? I've been meaning to make a fighter/mage that uses these summoned weapons often instead of normal weapons and I wanted to know how effective these are.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    +9 to hit with Ghoul Touch when Invisible is darned impressive. Especially dealt by a Fighter/Mage whose THAC0 is fairly low to begin with. Stunned = dead.
  • The problem with Chill Touch on a Fighter/Mage is that if you have a good strength, even a normal weapon can put out more damage (and you'll have a pretty close THAC0 as well). It's still interesting for a mage who wants to mix it up in melee combat once the enemies are focused on the tank, though, especially in those early levels before Magic Missile becomes good. Ghoul Touch is one my Fighter/Mages (and Bards) are going to have to memorize more often, though.

    Piercing is actually a pretty good damage type for BGEE as far as armor goes, as it only gets significant penalties against Full Plate (which maybe two or three enemies in the game wear), and it performs better than crushing against the more common armor types of leather and splint.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Neat! I'll be keeping these in mind...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    I'm looking forward to the Dark Moon Monk kit.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @Flashburn

    Phantom Blade: longsword, enchantment +3, 1d10+3 slashing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl1-6): war hammer, enchantment +1, 1d4+2 crushing damage , +1 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl7-12): war hammer, enchantment +2, 1d4+3 crushing damage , +2 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl13+): war hammer, enchantment +3, 1d4+4 crushing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1

    Black Blade of Disaster: longsword, enchantment +6, 2d12+5 slashing damage , +5 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1 + various effects reported in the spell description

    Can a mage/thief or illusionist/thief backstab with the Phantom Blade and/or Black Blade of Disaster: as their "longswords"?
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    @Flashburn

    Phantom Blade: longsword, enchantment +3, 1d10+3 slashing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl1-6): war hammer, enchantment +1, 1d4+2 crushing damage , +1 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl7-12): war hammer, enchantment +2, 1d4+3 crushing damage , +2 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl13+): war hammer, enchantment +3, 1d4+4 crushing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1

    Black Blade of Disaster: longsword, enchantment +6, 2d12+5 slashing damage , +5 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1 + various effects reported in the spell description

    Can a mage/thief or illusionist/thief backstab with the Phantom Blade and/or Black Blade of Disaster: as their "longswords"?
    They can with the BBoD, but I am not sure about the Phantom Blade.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    AHF said:

    @Flashburn

    Phantom Blade: longsword, enchantment +3, 1d10+3 slashing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl1-6): war hammer, enchantment +1, 1d4+2 crushing damage , +1 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl7-12): war hammer, enchantment +2, 1d4+3 crushing damage , +2 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl13+): war hammer, enchantment +3, 1d4+4 crushing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1

    Black Blade of Disaster: longsword, enchantment +6, 2d12+5 slashing damage , +5 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1 + various effects reported in the spell description

    Can a mage/thief or illusionist/thief backstab with the Phantom Blade and/or Black Blade of Disaster: as their "longswords"?
    They can with the BBoD, but I am not sure about the Phantom Blade.
    Oh I didn't know that, nice! :-)

    Would be interested to kno about the Plantom blade too
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    @Oxford_Guy yes for both ;)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @Oxford_Guy yes for both ;)

    Interesting! :-)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729

    @Flashburn

    Phantom Blade: longsword, enchantment +3, 1d10+3 slashing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    BTW doesn't this also do an extra +10 damage against undead? On the downside, it's a level 5 spell...


    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl1-6): war hammer, enchantment +1, 1d4+2 crushing damage , +1 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl7-12): war hammer, enchantment +2, 1d4+3 crushing damage , +2 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 2

    Spiritual Hammer (caster lvl13+): war hammer, enchantment +3, 1d4+4 crushing damage , +3 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1

    Black Blade of Disaster: longsword, enchantment +6, 2d12+5 slashing damage , +5 to Hit, adds Str bonus (if any), speed factor 1 + various effects reported in the spell description

    Black Blade of Disaster is good, but am not sure it's worth a level 9 spell slot!
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    I never use phantom blade because there are always 5th level spells I would prefer and I never bother with the scroll (you can get a +3 longsword moments into BG2). Likewise, I don't bother with spiritual hammer.

    BBoD, on the other hand, is a nice scroll for a thief (single, dual or multi) so that gets use. It can also be very effect for a F/M character when going up against something like the Ravager that requires very highly enchanted items.
  • Black Blade of Disaster is arguably the best backstab-capable weapon in the game. It has higher average damage than even the Staff of the Ram, though the Staff of the Ram has a higher minimum damage and so might more reliably put down certain enemies. Still, as a 9th level spell, it does have to compete against the likes of Time Stop and Improved Alacrity.
  • ElderElder Member Posts: 14
    As for the lower level Cleric/Druid summoned weapon spells (Shillelagh, Spirit Hammer, and Flame Blade), unfortunately, I have generally found them not worth using.

    One big problem is that Shill and Spirit Ham are generally about the same, or not even as good, as using a +1 weapon, so you’d be better off with a different spell, at least assuming you have a +1 weapon, which generally you can get pretty early. And in the case of fighter combos like Jaheira, the spells are an even worse deal because you lose the benefits of having 2 proficiency points in a weapon, no matter what you are proficient in, so you lose the +1/+2 and extra attacks you would get when using your specialized weapon. (More on this below.) And another negative of these spells is that once cast, you can’t switch back to your ranged weapon until the spell wears off.

    Flame Blade is slightly better than the other two and can be useful at times (especially in BG2 when fighting trolls!). On the plus side is that it does a base of 6-10 damage compared with the 2-7 or 3-6 for most +1 melee weapons usable by clerics and druids. That’s okay for those characters who can only have one proficiency point in weapons, such as pure clerics like Viconia (provided you are willing to give up a spell slot and forego the ability to switch back to a ranged weapon), but it’s not a very good deal for fighter combos like Jaheira compared to having her use even a +1 weapon that she has 2 proficiencies in (the spell has a lower To Hit chance (-2), base damage is only slightly better (6-10 with spell vs 4-9 with +1 weapon), and she loses the extra attacks).

    I was unable to find any weapon proficiencies that granted specialized proficiency bonuses (for having 2 proficiency points). No matter what weapons the caster had 2 proficiencies points in, I never saw the +1/+2 bonuses and extra attacks. Flame Blade basically says as much in its description, but the others imply they are magical hammers or cudgels (clubs). However, in my tests, Shillelagh did not give bonuses or extra attacks no matter what the character had 2 points in: Club, Staff, Hammer, or Mace. Spirit Hammer did not benefit from having 2 Hammer proficiencies (caveat: this was tested with my 18th level Paladin in BG2, and not tested in BGEE).

    In short, I almost always prefer other spells instead.
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  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296
    Elder said:

    Just tested, and yes, you get an additional +4 To Hit if invisible. (It was easy for me to test with an Invisibility potion.) You have to cast Chill or Ghoul touch first, then go invisible, then attack. (Drinking the potion uses up one round of the spell.) So for example, I cast Chill Touch, drank an Invis potion, then attacked and got +9 To Hit.

    I seem to remember being able to cast certain self-targeting spells without breaking invisibility. Is that true, or am I thinking of a different game? Because if so, chill/ghoul touch wouldn't have to waste a round while you go invisible -- you could just cast in the opposite order.

    Also, do chill/ghoul touch get backstab bonuses for thief/mages outside of the standard to-hit invisibility bonus?
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Well, some updates here with fixes submitted.

    The old thac0 bonus was to try and offset the non-prof penalties in BG, where you couldn't have prof-less weapons. This is removed since they're properly set w/o a prof in BGEE.

    Chill Touch's cold damage now gets a save vs. spell.

    Ghoul Touch, Chill Touch, and Shocking Grasp should be treated as a punch--strength bonuses to hit and damage now apply, but it's only 1d2 fist damage (i.e. they'll only knock unconscious) instead of the weird mix of crushing/piercing/whatever damage.

    Yes, you can backstab with them, but backstab multipliers only apply to the base (1d2) damage, just like any other weapon.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    CamDawg said:

    Well, some updates here with fixes submitted.

    The old thac0 bonus was to try and offset the non-prof penalties in BG, where you couldn't have prof-less weapons. This is removed since they're properly set w/o a prof in BGEE.

    Chill Touch's cold damage now gets a save vs. spell.

    So it's now *utterly* pointless again :-(

  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    It's an enhanced melee attack for a mage--it's always been pointless.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    CamDawg said:

    It's an enhanced melee attack for a mage--it's always been pointless.

    With a save for the cold damage and no bonus to hit, why would a mage *ever* take that spell?

  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    CamDawg said:

    It's an enhanced melee attack for a mage--it's always been pointless.

    With a save for the cold damage and no bonus to hit, why would a mage *ever* take that spell?

    The same reason someone would take magic stone or infravision.
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    CamDawg said:

    It's an enhanced melee attack for a mage--it's always been pointless.

    Well it had at least a little potential in the hands of a F/M or Bard.
  • AranthysAranthys Member Posts: 722
    edited February 2013
    CamDawg said:

    Well, some updates here with fixes submitted.

    The old thac0 bonus was to try and offset the non-prof penalties in BG, where you couldn't have prof-less weapons. This is removed since they're properly set w/o a prof in BGEE.

    Chill Touch's cold damage now gets a save vs. spell.

    Ghoul Touch, Chill Touch, and Shocking Grasp should be treated as a punch--strength bonuses to hit and damage now apply, but it's only 1d2 fist damage (i.e. they'll only knock unconscious) instead of the weird mix of crushing/piercing/whatever damage.

    Yes, you can backstab with them, but backstab multipliers only apply to the base (1d2) damage, just like any other weapon.

    While fixing bug is nice, I feel that changing Chill touch description rather than changing its effect would have been better (Except maybe fixing its +4 THACO bonus since Strength now applies, and there's no bonus to touch attacks in PnP)

    It's not like the spell gets a lot of use anyway at the moment, so I can't really say that this change is welcome...
  • TJ_HookerTJ_Hooker Member Posts: 2,438
    edited February 2013
    I'm not sure, but I thought that when making a touch attack in PnP you were able to bypass any physical armour your opponent was wearing (i.e. the armor in their torso slot, maybe even shields)? I'm 99% sure this isn't implemented in BG, and always figured the +4 bonus to THAC0 was to sort of make up for that.
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