Yeah, I know, I'm never popular when I fix stuff that makes the game harder, even marginally so.
Though find a few extra spell slots for Edwin or slip in a few +2 katanas, and 'likes' flow from the heavens.
I know what you mean, and I'd actually be in favour of a number of things being implemented to make the game harder (e.g Int affecting the max spell level you can cast, Int and Charisma actually mattering for Sorcererors etc.) rather than easier, but mainting the chill effect no save would hardly make the spell OP, with it there is no reason to take it. If the strength bonus THAC0 is implemented for the attack I lhave less issue with removing the +5 attack bonus, though. I assume the attack would also benefit from the Skald +1 THAC0 / damage (for the physical attack)?
Yeah, I know, I'm never popular when I fix stuff that makes the game harder, even marginally so.
Though find a few extra spell slots for Edwin or slip in a few +2 katanas, and 'likes' flow from the heavens.
Actually your fix doesn't make the game harder, since those spells hardly see any use with their current implementation. That, and the fact that the game becoming harder was hardly my point.
I'd just like those spells to be at least somewhat useful, and the "bugged" implementation granted that.
Perfect world would be fix the Thaco bonus, grant the Str bonus, leave chill touch damage on save alone, update the description
BTW does Branwyn's innate Spiritual Hammer ability scale too? Though she'll likely be using Bassilus' hammer well before level 7, wihch is better than Spiritual Hammer...
My problem with the touch attacks is they require the wizard to go into touch range in the middle of combat. At low levels, that can be lethal. At higher levels you have to waste valuable spell slots on a very situational spell and/or have a huge amount of defenses to support the spells. Either way unless you are playing some kind of combat mage, you are pretty much hurting yourself when Magic Missile will do it all from range, have an automatic hit, effect undead as well as the rest of the arena and not require you to be in touch range of nasty pointy things.
My problem with the touch attacks is they require the wizard to go into touch range in the middle of combat. At low levels, that can be lethal. At higher levels you have to waste valuable spell slots on a very situational spell and/or have a huge amount of defenses to support the spells. Either way unless you are playing some kind of combat mage, you are pretty much hurting yourself when Magic Missile will do it all from range, have an automatic hit, effect undead as well as the rest of the arena and not require you to be in touch range of nasty pointy things.
Unless it's a Fighter/Mage, Bard, or Fighter/Mage/Thief.
But yeah, for a Mage I would agree. I did play a BG2 game once many moons ago with a (generalist) Mage where I had him use Touch spells and melee with a quarterstaff, just to see. I even tried using Tensers. (Didn't work out well because a Mage's THAC0 just sucks.) I was actually surprised at how little the guy got hurt. I was kind of proud of him for a while, going around slapping Ghoul touch and swinging a staff around. But you can only do this for about the first third of the game at best. Eventually I returned him to the back row and got him using the best spells in his arsenal.
@Lemernis. Fighter/Mage, Bard or Fighter/Mage/Thief all equate to combat mage in my book.
I did try what you indicate, only it was a necromancer. big mistake because then I couldn't make use of mirror image or invisibility as defenses. it was a short lived attempt. But fun none the less.
At the end of the day there are very few spells that equal the utility of Magic Missile. Ranged damage with an automatic hit. Effects anything that isn't immune to 1st level spells. Once you get past the point where Sleep is knocking things out, Magic Missile pretty much rocks.
My problem with the touch attacks is they require the wizard to go into touch range in the middle of combat. At low levels, that can be lethal. At higher levels you have to waste valuable spell slots on a very situational spell and/or have a huge amount of defenses to support the spells. Either way unless you are playing some kind of combat mage, you are pretty much hurting yourself when Magic Missile will do it all from range, have an automatic hit, effect undead as well as the rest of the arena and not require you to be in touch range of nasty pointy things.
Unless it's a Fighter/Mage, Bard, or Fighter/Mage/Thief.
@the_spyder For damage dealing spells MM is my favorite.
For disabling spells--which I use mostly, and then let the meleers go to town--Blindness seems to be an underrated spell. It seems to stack with Glitterdust, and enemies hit with both seem to go down very fast.
Hold Person is also pretty awesome, especially when one casting works on four enemies.
Sleep and Horror are staples.
I go more for disabling the enemy. But no doubt there is something satisfying as all get out about Magic Missiles.
The problem for the multiclasses and bards is that if you have access to better weapon proficiencies, it's usually a better option to use a real weapon. In its current form, Chill Touch is inferior to normal weapons for anyone with a decent strength score or specialization; even if you added strength damage while keeping the lack of a save against the cold damage on chill touch, it's easy to match with specialization, and easy to exceed with magical weapons.
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells. Ghoul touch + chill touch is a strong combo. Easily destroyed Mullahey with chill touch. Keep in mind you may need high Dex, Con, and Mage Armor to use them effectively.
@Lemernis, Disabling spells are really awesome in my book as well. And I agree that Blindness is very underrated. I find it is a great way to hose up the enemy while my front line takes them down. Beyond making it tougher to hit my guys, it also completely prevents casters from using target specific spells. They can still cast AoEs, but no holds or the like.
Despite the fact that I like necromancers, I generally steer clear of Horror. Invariably, it means that my party ends up chasing the bad guys far and wide across the landscape. That will often times mean that other battles start up while the first one is still going on. Makes for bad business if you aren't prepared.
As far as MM, it is my go to 1st level damage spell, particularly once Sleep stops working on things. I was recently playing the first part of BG2 in the dungeon. There is a room with a Cambion. I lead off with two mages firing MM at the monster. They took him down to 'near death' in the opening volley and Minsc finished him off with one hit. not bad for a 1st level spell.
The problem for the multiclasses and bards is that if you have access to better weapon proficiencies, it's usually a better option to use a real weapon. In its current form, Chill Touch is inferior to normal weapons for anyone with a decent strength score or specialization; even if you added strength damage while keeping the lack of a save against the cold damage on chill touch, it's easy to match with specialization, and easy to exceed with magical weapons.
I've a hunch the changes to Chill Touch have to do with the Dark Moon Monk kit. Since they are attacking with fists anyway, it is a strieght up buff for them.
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
Also, don't forget you may be thinking that Chill Touch is "okay" (not good, but okay) because it currently has +5 THAC0 and no save for the 1-8 cold damage, but both this advantages are going to be removed (I can see some sense in the former, at it was there to offset a non-proficiency penalty for fists that no longer applies, but allowing a save to do any significant damage makes it pretty useless)
Personally, I would favor making it a useful spell by altering it as it is now with unintended THAC0 +5 and no save vs. cold damage. But perhaps something like that (or similar) could be done in a spell revisions DLC mod.
@CamDawg, I would think working to foster a greater diversity of useful spells would be good for the game, not bad. Making already marginal spells much worse, and effectively making them useless, really serves no good purpose. Isn't it more interesting for mages to have a better variety of spells?
If you are trying to make the game harder, I would think Magic Missile is a bigger issue than marginal spells that rarely get used. Personally, I'd rather see the team work to improve spells that never see use and make them somewhat interesting (but not overpowered), instead of "fixing" marginal spells such that they will almost never get used.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
Also, don't forget you may be thinking that Chill Touch is "okay" (not good, but okay) because it currently has +5 THAC0 and no save for the 1-8 cold damage, but both this advantages are going to be removed (I can see some sense in the former, at it was there to offset a non-proficiency penalty for fists that no longer applies, but allowing a save to do any significant damage makes it pretty useless)
I would suspect that the poster is saying that 2-11 damage and 10 attacks is pretty good vs D4+1 one time. And yeah, over all, that is potentially significantly more damage. However.......
it also means that your Wizard is now in melee range for those 10 rounds and subject to being sliced and diced directly because of it. For my money, I would much rather have my wizard in the back ranks with a sling and/or casting Magic Missiles. Might be less damage, but then again at least he/she will survive longer to cast the higher level spells.
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
He might be thinking that it works like it does in PnP, where I think armour is bypassed for touch attacks. If someone relies almost purely on their armour for AC, like a heavy armour wearing fighter would, they would be particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores said armour. That's my best guess as to what he was thinking.
I think my next run is going to involve Baeloth using lots of touch spells in his lower level slots. Once my frontliners have the enemies sufficiently distracted, BAM, Ghoul Touch.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
Yeah, this. I always assumed the THACO bonus (insufficiently) accounted for the lack of "armor ignoring" touch attack rules. I have no idea why that feature is being removed, even if the proficiency rules were changed. In any case, touch spells work really well for me. We all have different playstyles.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
Also, don't forget you may be thinking that Chill Touch is "okay" (not good, but okay) because it currently has +5 THAC0 and no save for the 1-8 cold damage, but both this advantages are going to be removed (I can see some sense in the former, at it was there to offset a non-proficiency penalty for fists that no longer applies, but allowing a save to do any significant damage makes it pretty useless)
I would suspect that the poster is saying that 2-11 damage and 10 attacks is pretty good vs D4+1 one time. And yeah, over all, that is potentially significantly more damage.
*If* a save is failed for each of those 10 attacks when this is "fixed" and assuming they all hit in the first place
it also means that your Wizard is now in melee range for those 10 rounds and subject to being sliced and diced directly because of it. For my money, I would much rather have my wizard in the back ranks with a sling and/or casting Magic Missiles. Might be less damage, but then again at least he/she will survive longer to cast the higher level spells.
Yes, but it would *potentially* be useful for Bards (especially ones that don't have high strength), fighter/mages at lower levels and even thief/mages
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
He might be thinking that it works like it does in PnP, where I think armour is bypassed for touch attacks. If someone relies almost purely on their armour for AC, like a heavy armour wearing fighter would, they would be particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores said armour. That's my best guess as to what he was thinking.
Can this be implemented in Baldur's Gate - that would at least make touch spells more relevant, even without the +5 THAC0 bonus? If it can't, I can see some grounds for a THAC0 bonus of some description being left in for this reason alone, otherwise it is much worse than the PnP variant.
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
He might be thinking that it works like it does in PnP, where I think armour is bypassed for touch attacks. If someone relies almost purely on their armour for AC, like a heavy armour wearing fighter would, they would be particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores said armour. That's my best guess as to what he was thinking.
Was this part of the 2nd edition rules? I know it was present in 3rd edition (where you would actually keep track of your "touch AC" in a separate box on the character sheet). As granular as the systems in 2nd edition could be, I don't remember them taking that into account for spells, but it's been more than a decade since I played 2nd edition outside of BG.
*If* a save is failed for each of those 10 attacks when this is "fixed" and assuming they all hit in the first place
Well, yes. But.... 10 to hit rolls and 10 saving rolls mean that even if you hit once and they don't save, you still do more damage than one Magic Missile. Besides, the 1-3 damage is at no save. So even if they save, assuming 2 or more hits, you will top Magic missile damage.
However, there are qualifications. And that is where MM surpasses it.
Yes, but it would *potentially* be useful for Bards (especially ones that don't have high strength), fighter/mages at lower levels and even thief/mages
Oh, granted. I generally consider only straight mages because that is generally what I play. But yeah. Anyone who is better at combat than a straight mage (and that is just about everyone), would benefit in ways that a straight mage wouldn't.
FWIW, I'd rather see touch spells NOT benefit from strength bonuses. First, if strength bonuses are added to the spells as currently implemented, it is probably unbalancing (too easy to hit and, more importantly, too much damage done by strong mages); second, it makes the devs want to nerf the spells to prevent strong chars from abusing the spells, or making it too easy for strong chars, but in that case it becomes too poor for weak mages; third, it helps level the playing field a bit for weaker mages. And there's no reason to assume that trying to touch someone to get off a spell would be the same action as trying to punch someone as hard as you can.
FWIW, I'd rather see touch spells NOT benefit from strength bonuses. First, if strength bonuses are added to the spells as currently implemented, it is probably unbalancing (too easy to hit and, more importantly, too much damage done by strong mages); second, it makes the devs want to nerf the spells to prevent strong chars from abusing the spells, or making it too easy for strong chars, but in that case it becomes too poor for weak mages; third, it helps level the playing field a bit for weaker mages. And there's no reason to assume that trying to touch someone to get off a spell would be the same action as trying to punch someone as hard as you can.
I think I see what you mean, maybe if they can figure out a way to make touch spells by pass armour instead, though?
Yep from my experience touch spells are really good in some situations. At lower levels a touch spell is way better than a single magic missile. I have at least 1 memorized at all times.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells.
Why? Because plate armour gives THAC0 penalties to slashing and, to a lesser extent, piercing weapons? Can't think of any other reason.
He might be thinking that it works like it does in PnP, where I think armour is bypassed for touch attacks. If someone relies almost purely on their armour for AC, like a heavy armour wearing fighter would, they would be particularly vulnerable to anything that ignores said armour. That's my best guess as to what he was thinking.
Was this part of the 2nd edition rules? I know it was present in 3rd edition (where you would actually keep track of your "touch AC" in a separate box on the character sheet). As granular as the systems in 2nd edition could be, I don't remember them taking that into account for spells, but it's been more than a decade since I played 2nd edition outside of BG.
You may very well be right. I've never actually played any PnP, I was just going off what I've seen other people say in the past. I didn't really pay attention to what edition they were talking about, so maybe this is only applicable in 3E.
Comments
Though find a few extra spell slots for Edwin or slip in a few +2 katanas, and 'likes' flow from the heavens.
That, and the fact that the game becoming harder was hardly my point.
I'd just like those spells to be at least somewhat useful, and the "bugged" implementation granted that.
Perfect world would be fix the Thaco bonus, grant the Str bonus, leave chill touch damage on save alone, update the description
I think it would be great if we added these details in spell descriptions.
But yeah, for a Mage I would agree. I did play a BG2 game once many moons ago with a (generalist) Mage where I had him use Touch spells and melee with a quarterstaff, just to see. I even tried using Tensers. (Didn't work out well because a Mage's THAC0 just sucks.) I was actually surprised at how little the guy got hurt. I was kind of proud of him for a while, going around slapping Ghoul touch and swinging a staff around. But you can only do this for about the first third of the game at best. Eventually I returned him to the back row and got him using the best spells in his arsenal.
I did try what you indicate, only it was a necromancer. big mistake because then I couldn't make use of mirror image or invisibility as defenses. it was a short lived attempt. But fun none the less.
At the end of the day there are very few spells that equal the utility of Magic Missile. Ranged damage with an automatic hit. Effects anything that isn't immune to 1st level spells. Once you get past the point where Sleep is knocking things out, Magic Missile pretty much rocks.
This
For disabling spells--which I use mostly, and then let the meleers go to town--Blindness seems to be an underrated spell. It seems to stack with Glitterdust, and enemies hit with both seem to go down very fast.
Hold Person is also pretty awesome, especially when one casting works on four enemies.
Sleep and Horror are staples.
I go more for disabling the enemy. But no doubt there is something satisfying as all get out about Magic Missiles.
Armored fighters are very susceptible to touch spells. Ghoul touch + chill touch is a strong combo. Easily destroyed Mullahey with chill touch. Keep in mind you may need high Dex, Con, and Mage Armor to use them effectively.
Despite the fact that I like necromancers, I generally steer clear of Horror. Invariably, it means that my party ends up chasing the bad guys far and wide across the landscape. That will often times mean that other battles start up while the first one is still going on. Makes for bad business if you aren't prepared.
As far as MM, it is my go to 1st level damage spell, particularly once Sleep stops working on things. I was recently playing the first part of BG2 in the dungeon. There is a room with a Cambion. I lead off with two mages firing MM at the monster. They took him down to 'near death' in the opening volley and Minsc finished him off with one hit. not bad for a 1st level spell.
Also, don't forget you may be thinking that Chill Touch is "okay" (not good, but okay) because it currently has +5 THAC0 and no save for the 1-8 cold damage, but both this advantages are going to be removed (I can see some sense in the former, at it was there to offset a non-proficiency penalty for fists that no longer applies, but allowing a save to do any significant damage makes it pretty useless)
If you are trying to make the game harder, I would think Magic Missile is a bigger issue than marginal spells that rarely get used. Personally, I'd rather see the team work to improve spells that never see use and make them somewhat interesting (but not overpowered), instead of "fixing" marginal spells such that they will almost never get used.
it also means that your Wizard is now in melee range for those 10 rounds and subject to being sliced and diced directly because of it. For my money, I would much rather have my wizard in the back ranks with a sling and/or casting Magic Missiles. Might be less damage, but then again at least he/she will survive longer to cast the higher level spells.
However, there are qualifications. And that is where MM surpasses it. Oh, granted. I generally consider only straight mages because that is generally what I play. But yeah. Anyone who is better at combat than a straight mage (and that is just about everyone), would benefit in ways that a straight mage wouldn't.