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Don't you just love the mage xp table

Higher when you are a mudfarmer turned wizard, then suddenly lower as you start becoming a god?
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  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    RedWizard said:

    Higher when you are a mudfarmer turned wizard, then suddenly lower as you start becoming a god?

    I'm not sure I understand what you mean, could you explain?
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    @Oxford_Guy As a mage, you need more xp to level up at lower levels than pretty much all classes when you are very weak, then suddenly starting from level 7 it gets lower to the point you level a lot faster than fighters, until it slows down again at 14+.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    RedWizard said:

    @Oxford_Guy As a mage, you need more xp to level up at lower levels than pretty much all classes when you are very weak, then suddenly starting from level 7 it gets lower to the point you level a lot faster than fighters, until it slows down again at 14+.

    Thanks, kind of the opposite of Druids then, level 15 is brutal!
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    Fardragon said:

    I love things that where designed in the days before people became obsessed with "balance".

    Psh, "balance" just means "fairness".
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    The rules are published, they apply to all players equally, that is completely fair. I love the eccentricity of the experience tables and class powers. Working with those oddities is just part of the game. You don't like, there's plenty of other games out there...
  • atcDave said:

    The rules are published, they apply to all players equally, that is completely fair. I love the eccentricity of the experience tables and class powers. Working with those oddities is just part of the game. You don't like, there's plenty of other games out there...

    No, that's impartiality, or maybe equality. Fairness actually involves making exceptions to the rules in the interests of justice, also known as Equity, to make things even more confusing.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Kaigen said:

    atcDave said:

    The rules are published, they apply to all players equally, that is completely fair. I love the eccentricity of the experience tables and class powers. Working with those oddities is just part of the game. You don't like, there's plenty of other games out there...

    No, that's impartiality, or maybe equality. Fairness actually involves making exceptions to the rules in the interests of justice, also known as Equity, to make things even more confusing.
    You're taking this far too seriously, and I think your application is completely inappropriate. Like entitlement run amok if we're actually worried about some oddities in a rules system as an issue of justice.

    In a game, rules applied equally is the very definition of fairness. You may not like a rule, if it were PNP I'd say just change it. But as it stands, many thousands of players have happily played with these rules for decades, it is hardly an issue worthy of such drama.
  • LoremasterLoremaster Member Posts: 212
    The mage table is no good and if I ever learn to mod I would adjust it. But until that day comes I gladly play with a bad, inconsistent or whatever table.

    By the way, is there a simple way to do this? The road to modding might not be that hard at all?
  • Jackkel_DragonJackkel_Dragon Member Posts: 103
    I can understand the in-setting reason for the nasty low-level mage XP tables (a novice wizard is going to need a LOT of practice before they get anywhere, if they don't fry themselves in the process.) Thing is, in a CRPG focused on combat you can't really get much use out of mages until they can start casting 2nd-level spells (or at least in 2E and 3.xE DnD systems), and the longer you make that wait the more useless they seem.

    I think my cleric cast more spells in the first stages of BG than my team mage has cast since joining the party. (Part of this is that my team mage is our new BGEE wild mage buddy, who has on occassion one-shotted my character while casting a magic missile on an unrelated target.) Outside of the 2-3 level 1 spells a day, my mage mostly just sits around with a sling and occassionally finds something to fling rocks at. Not very mage-y. I could get more utility out of a bonus thief or cleric, or even a bard.

    What I don't get is why it becomes easy for mages to level just when they can actually start doing things that live up to the class title... it's a bit unbalancing in a game focused on a team of mixed talents when the weak link suddenly becomes a god, and I can't think of an in-setting reason for such a leap in power.
  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242
    I preferred when things were balanced on PvE instead of PvP. In PvE classes could be balanced around usefulness to a group instead of being equal in combat ability. In PvP everything is about classes being equal in combat. In many fantasy settings some classes are more powerful then others in combat. Thats just the way it is.

    Many times this is in different stages like the Mage who is terrible at low levels, but super powerful at high levels. Mages have some balance even at high levels as they have to rest to use their spells.

    Fighters are good throughout, but are never super powerful like mages end up being. They are more of a dime a dozen type class that every group needs and have in abundance.

    Clerics/Druids are generally powerful at all levels, but it's rare people play them because only a few people want to heal and buff. I find the class essential to making PvE encounters interesting though.

    Thieves have never been implemented well in computer games. They should be support to the group disarming dangerous traps, scouting ahead, picking pockets for rare items, etc. Generally they end up being fighters that attack from behind or even the sides these days.

    Overall PvE combat is about having an important role more so than being equal in combat prowess. It's hard to have an important role when everyone is just DPS with a different flavor.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    The only XP table I would be tempted to revise is the Druid table.
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    I hate it too and usually bludgeon my way to level 2/3 by dumping party members before turning in quests. Used to play with smaller parties to minimize the "xp loss" but I have eventually settled for the fact I'm not supposed to be as killy and have as much fun as the warrior/rogue classes early on :(
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    @Silverstar - Sleep stills utterly destroys early on - especially with the ring that doubles your first level spells.
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    Mages are powerful early on, you just have to pick the correct spells.
    Also mage with some decent level can outshine about any class when it comes to damage, tanking or support.

    Giving them a faster xp table early in the game would ruin the little game balance there is (which is quite broken as it is).
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,207
    AHF said:

    @Silverstar - Sleep stills utterly destroys early on - especially with the ring that doubles your first level spells.

    Oh indeed it does. Unfortunately my brain is hardwired to pick Magic Missile and Identify at first level though and being sorcerer I don't get my next spell pick till level 3. As for the ring I only just randomly found it now for the first time in EE.
    Freche said:

    Giving them a faster xp table early in the game would ruin the little game balance there is (which is quite broken as it is).

    I don't want the xp tables changed but that doesn't mean I have to hate them any less :)
  • MinscJrMinscJr Member Posts: 1
    Fardragon said:

    I love things that where designed in the days before people became obsessed with "balance".

    atcDave said:

    The rules are published, they apply to all players equally, that is completely fair. I love the eccentricity of the experience tables and class powers. Working with those oddities is just part of the game. You don't like, there's plenty of other games out there...

    2nd ed AD&D was once a great RPG in the same sense the Model T was a great car. The Baldurs Gate games were great CRPGs in spite of the 2nd ed rules not because of them. It would have been awesome if Beambog's contract had allowed them to make major changes so the game could be remade in 3.5 ed rules.
  • Jackkel_DragonJackkel_Dragon Member Posts: 103

    I preferred when things were balanced on PvE instead of PvP. In PvE classes could be balanced around usefulness to a group instead of being equal in combat ability. In PvP everything is about classes being equal in combat. In many fantasy settings some classes are more powerful then others in combat. Thats just the way it is.

    Perhaps you weren't speaking to me, but I wasn't really talking about PvE versus PvP at all. I just feel that it's not very fun to have a character that's still level 1 when some classes are already inching up to level 3. Especially when the level 1 class has only 4 hit points and is only useful for 12 seconds (2 spells) every day.

    Thieves have never been implemented well in computer games. They should be support to the group disarming dangerous traps, scouting ahead, picking pockets for rare items, etc. Generally they end up being fighters that attack from behind or even the sides these days.

    While the change to thieves comes with having a combat-focused CRPG, I sort of agree on this point. Thieves are mostly squishy damage dealers rather than support in CRPGs. It doesn't help that traps tend to be poorly implemented (in my biased opinion) and that lockpicking is really just a way to get bonus XP anf gold.

    Overall PvE combat is about having an important role more so than being equal in combat prowess. It's hard to have an important role when everyone is just DPS with a different flavor.

    It depends on the system, so while I sort of see your point I can't really agree with you. In a combat-focused CRPG, dps is going to be a major factor in the usefulness of a class. So low-level mages tend to be left by the wayside as 1-hit kills that can only use slings and a spell or two while fighters are doing tons of damage, who in turn are made redundant by high-level mages who can kill entire armies in one spell. Meanwhile, the support classes end up sitting around and the healers just pick up the pieces. Another system could certainly make support roles useful, but as BG stands you really need to focus on damage and crowd control.
  • RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
    @Silverstar
    Well, to be fair Sleep doesn't really work on anything worthwhile to me, besides some spiders when you are level 1 and I guess the dreaded kobold commandos. Pretty much everything is immune to it like bosses and most named npcs, undead, bears etc...
    I'd rather have Blindness or magic missile for interrupting those annoying casters. Oh, and Spook at higher levels is nice too.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    MinscJr said:

    Fardragon said:

    I love things that where designed in the days before people became obsessed with "balance".

    atcDave said:

    The rules are published, they apply to all players equally, that is completely fair. I love the eccentricity of the experience tables and class powers. Working with those oddities is just part of the game. You don't like, there's plenty of other games out there...

    2nd ed AD&D was once a great RPG in the same sense the Model T was a great car. The Baldurs Gate games were great CRPGs in spite of the 2nd ed rules not because of them. It would have been awesome if Beambog's contract had allowed them to make major changes so the game could be remade in 3.5 ed rules.
    I love 2E rules, and never would have bought the product with a rules retrofit. I'm guessing a lot of BG veterans feel he same. In fact, there was a rules set poll up here a couple weeks ago that had those two versions pretty much neck and neck.
    I also find your analogy humorously off the mark. It's not like there's any qualitative "improvement" from one edition to the next. It's a matter of pure taste. I have played 1E, 3E, 3.5, and 4E; whatever the DM wants, a good game can be made of it. But I will only run 2E myself, it's what I like.
  • Jackkel_DragonJackkel_Dragon Member Posts: 103
    atcDave said:

    It's a matter of pure taste. I have played 1E, 3E, 3.5, and 4E; whatever the DM wants, a good game can be made of it. But I will only run 2E myself, it's what I like.

    This is getting a bit far off the listed topic, but I agree. I technically have never played a tabletop game in any system, but I feel like I'd prefer a houseruled 3.x system rather than any of the others I've read the sourcebooks for. That doesn't make my favored system better (in fact, it's my understanding that 3.x is hilariously unbalanced, and the skill system is unnecessarily complex in my own opinion).

    BG following 2E rules really only makes sense: it would take too much effort to retrofit the rules with another system. The new rules system some players seem to want can wait until the "BG: Next" project coming after BG2EE, because while they might like a new system there are people who like the old system just as much. (Also that thing about retrofitting = money/time sink.)

    Anyway, I think I'm getting off my own topic... basically (back to original topic), I feel that mages in 2E start off too weak and take too long to become useful and mage-like at low levels, then become worthy of the title only later (when they start to outshine other classes...) If I wrote the XP system I'd do it differently (I may even make a mod for it if it actually starts ticking me off), but it's just based on the 2E rules.
  • The Mage XP table is probably an extension of the "Victory of the Nerds over the Jocks" theme going on with the Mage/Fighter split. At low levels, the Mage is like the nerd in high school, weak, unvalued, and with a long slog of schooling ahead before they can come into their own. When the leveling rate picks up is when they're in their "Young Genius" stage ("A person who has not made his great contribution to science before the age of thirty will never do so."), doing incredible intellectual work as a scientist or starting up a fabulously successful IT corporation. Then once they pass that point, they settle back on their haunches, powerful and influential, but no longer making major breakthroughs on a regular basis. Meanwhile, by this point the Jock (Fighter) is past his prime and working at the car wash.
  • UnknownQuantityUnknownQuantity Member Posts: 242

    I preferred when things were balanced on PvE instead of PvP. In PvE classes could be balanced around usefulness to a group instead of being equal in combat ability. In PvP everything is about classes being equal in combat. In many fantasy settings some classes are more powerful then others in combat. Thats just the way it is.

    Perhaps you weren't speaking to me, but I wasn't really talking about PvE versus PvP at all. I just feel that it's not very fun to have a character that's still level 1 when some classes are already inching up to level 3. Especially when the level 1 class has only 4 hit points and is only useful for 12 seconds (2 spells) every day.

    Thieves have never been implemented well in computer games. They should be support to the group disarming dangerous traps, scouting ahead, picking pockets for rare items, etc. Generally they end up being fighters that attack from behind or even the sides these days.

    While the change to thieves comes with having a combat-focused CRPG, I sort of agree on this point. Thieves are mostly squishy damage dealers rather than support in CRPGs. It doesn't help that traps tend to be poorly implemented (in my biased opinion) and that lockpicking is really just a way to get bonus XP anf gold.

    Overall PvE combat is about having an important role more so than being equal in combat prowess. It's hard to have an important role when everyone is just DPS with a different flavor.

    It depends on the system, so while I sort of see your point I can't really agree with you. In a combat-focused CRPG, dps is going to be a major factor in the usefulness of a class. So low-level mages tend to be left by the wayside as 1-hit kills that can only use slings and a spell or two while fighters are doing tons of damage, who in turn are made redundant by high-level mages who can kill entire armies in one spell. Meanwhile, the support classes end up sitting around and the healers just pick up the pieces. Another system could certainly make support roles useful, but as BG stands you really need to focus on damage and crowd control.
    It's true though I think everyone plays an important role in the game aside from maybe thieves. Mages are useful throughout, but need protection from fighter type classes early on. I guess mage is not essential early in the game, but it does give you another tool in your arsenal that a pure dps like fighter can't provide. Someone pointed out sleep is a pretty powerful spell early on. Mages are very good at crowd control throughout the game. They aren't really damage dealers until later on. I'm not sure if there is a real reason for the way leveling works in the game, but it at least makes you wonder about it I guess.
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376
    RedWizard said:

    @Silverstar
    Well, to be fair Sleep doesn't really work on anything worthwhile to me, besides some spiders when you are level 1 and I guess the dreaded kobold commandos. Pretty much everything is immune to it like bosses and most named npcs, undead, bears etc...
    I'd rather have Blindness or magic missile for interrupting those annoying casters. Oh, and Spook at higher levels is nice too.

    Actually, I think that isn't fair. Ankhegs, spiders, wolves, ogres, orcs, goblins, xvarts, etc. are all sleep bate. That is what you are primarily encountering early in the game. As level 1 spell, it doesn't destroy everything in the game but it pretty much destroys the beginning of the game and remains useful for many encounters and decimates many of them early on.

    It also has a penalty to save so it works significantly more often than blindness.

    By the time you can do more than 1d4+1 with magic missile, you can web those bears, undead, most named npcs, etc.

  • Jackkel_DragonJackkel_Dragon Member Posts: 103


    Mages are very good at crowd control throughout the game. They aren't really damage dealers until later on. I'm not sure if there is a real reason for the way leveling works in the game, but it at least makes you wonder about it I guess.

    I still don't like the XP tables making it hard to get to the level where Horror (2nd level spell) is at, but mages are CC gods. Aforementioned Horror spell makes the first ten fights of the Black Pits campaign trivial.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    It's pretty balanced I'd say. Mages are quite powerful at any level, if anything I'd actually double it, and remove the grace period of reduced XP limits they get at low-medium levels.

    Anyone that doesn't think mages are OP at any level isn't using them right. (This coming from someone who only rests when the party is fatigued and only in an Inn.)

    Mages aren't meant to be spamming spells with wild abandon, we'd have a mana system like some other games if that was the case (or that god awful DDO), they're surgical, using the right spell for the right job, and working within their means.
  • Jackkel_DragonJackkel_Dragon Member Posts: 103

    It's pretty balanced I'd say. Mages are quite powerful at any level, if anything I'd actually double it, and remove the grace period of reduced XP limits they get at low-medium levels.

    Anyone that doesn't think mages are OP at any level isn't using them right. (This coming from someone who only rests when the party is fatigued and only in an Inn.)

    I really can't agree with that... even with 2 CC spells a day, there can be at least 6 fights in 20 minutes in BG. Even holding back spells for big moments means that those mages are only useful for 2 fights a day at level 1. After 2nd level spells show up at lv3/4, I can get the high XP thresholds (since Horror+Spook means 5 CC spells a day, and Horror is overpowered), but at level 1 you need at least 2 mages to actually deal with the amount of fights in the game.

    (I see why mages would be powerful in tabletop where the rules came from, though... with fewer fights per day a mage could be an MVP at level 1.)
  • emjayemjay Member Posts: 84
    In tabletop I hardly think mages would be resting in the room next door to a boss fight in the middle of enemy held mines
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