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Neverwinter Nights: Enhanced Edition has been released! Visit nwn.beamdog.com to make an order. NWN:EE FAQ is available.
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[BG:EE] PLEASE READ - LIST OF THINGS THAT CAN'T BE DONE.

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Comments

  • mch202mch202 Member Posts: 1,455
    I guess I have too much free time :D

  • SaithMasuSaithMasu Member Posts: 17
    I read the comment from jaysl659 from page 2
    Its well written and points out everything you can expect from this new release so far.
    Everything else can be a big suprise,....
    I do not want to keep going in circles, so i wont start this disscussion about the "improvments" again,...
    But: As long as the word "money" is involved in all this someone has to be careful and i think i have the right questioning it. For money i want to see something that stands out, that matters, nevertheless how noble the idea of refreshing the franchise is and how community oriented the publishers are...blindly buying something cause you want to support a small company and its dream is foolish.
    In this times where evrybody is crying for money no matter what, you have to be careful what you actually get.


  • CheesyPeasCheesyPeas Member Posts: 4
    I'm an avid fan of Baldur's Gate and even now have BG1, 2 and TOB installed on my machine (via Big World with a whole bunch of other mods and content - including some customized animations, I might add). Which I guess is kind of my next point, really...

    I get that they need to make money, but packaging mods up and selling them seems to be the limit of it. With a bit of outsourced CGI, a couple of new music tracks and a new character and encounter or two. I don't understand why they wouldn't take the engine (or style) and do something for themslves, then missing assets wouldn't be an issue, and it would capture the attention of a wider audience (I.E. those people who would be turned off by fourteen year old visuals).

    I am to assume this title won't be for me and the many other existing fans who also use the above mods, but instead to attract new people to it who can't for some reason or another use the existing mod packs? I've bought this game quite a lot already due to various CD failures over the years, so forgive me for being wary of buying it yet again :)

    SaithMasunoober
  • TanthalasTanthalas Member Posts: 6,738
    @CheasyPeas

    I think its unfair to say BGEE is basically "packaging mods up and selling them".

    BGEE might not have major graphical enhancements, but it does have improvements to the game engine, GUI and most likely other stuff that currently are not (can not be?) done through mods.

    ElectricMonkTheGrapeTyphlosion
  • CheesyPeasCheesyPeas Member Posts: 4
    Fair enough, what improvements to the engine (the actual engine, rather than the scripts) are being made? Is there a list of these things available? Apologies if I've missed something obvious. I've had a good read through the fixes forum, but the majority of things there appear to be errors in content that have already been addressed in various fixpacks.

    SaithMasu
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    @Cheesypeas
    I've read the posts of a lot of people who agree with you. But let me throw out the reason why I'm excited about this. I played BG1 when I was about 14, and BG2 afterward. I then started playing hockey and doing other things than gaming and eventually all the discs got lost or thrown away. A few years ago I started gaming again, but had been out of the community so long that I didn't know where to get old games, and I especially didn't know how to get them to run on my computer. I also don't know where to get mods, or how to implement them, along with not knowing how to know if a mod is good, or how to make it not buggy on my computer.

    I might be alone in this (though I doubt it), but something like the EE is perfect for gamers like me. We don't want to take the time to figure out mods, where to find them, how they work, or how to make them not buggy. We want an easy buy of an old game that will work with our systems that has some new content.

    I'm not saying you're point isn't valid, I'm just saying that the EE will sell to modders (who want the patched engine), gamers like me, and gamers who may not need/want this EE, but know that a BGIII is impossible without Beamdog getting revenue from somewhere.

    mch202CheesyPeasTanthalasTheGrapeTyphlosion
  • CheesyPeasCheesyPeas Member Posts: 4
    edited July 2012
    @pausifer42 Okay, so this is kinda like a Kickstarter with a monetized re-release as an ante, but not actual guarantee of the main project starting off yet. Fair enough :) ... Thanks for your reply.

    paulsifer42
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    @cheesypeas
    I hadn't really made the connection with Kickstarter, but yeah, that's exactly what I'm trying to say. :D

    CheesyPeas
  • lordkimlordkim Member Posts: 1,063
    edited July 2012
    Quote :

    @SaithMasu
    3:26PM Posts: 7
    I have a really important question:
    If BG:EE is just adding a new character and a couple of missions, a bit changed music and stuff, i wonder what the hole point of this is. The BG Community has a mod called: Baldurgs Gate1 NPC Mod which includes the following:
    - tons of new dialoges between the existing characters
    - new encounters
    - new quests
    - new music

    Seriously, but if they cant change graphics, animations and stuff there is no point to all of this, except its playable on I-Pad and on Mac but thats not something big at all.
    Why the hell shall i pay 10 Bucks for a game that is: 14 years old and do not update the visual content.
    Cause everything else is already done by the community in a much smoother and bigger way.
    There are thousands of addons and a mod called Widescreen Mod that let you play the game on a size you want, even Widescreen.....so i ask again, whats the point of all this?


    Not all is so fortuned as you, to actually get these mods to work.. And not all have the patience.
    Here we are getting org. Devs, and modders of different sort to create a new chapter to this world.
    Im not forcing you to buy it. But have a open mind to it. All these critics can come after its released. Not before....

  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    Tanthalas said:

    @CheasyPeas

    I don't think there's a list of actual stuff that has been done to the engine.

    We're still waiting to see how the new GUI will work like, but I believe that TrentOster has already mentioned that the game no longer has loading screens. So something has been done to improve that already.

    The game doesn't have what!? I didn't hear this before. That ALONE is worth buying it again.

  • CheesyPeasCheesyPeas Member Posts: 4
    @Tanthalas
    That sounds rather promising, thanks taking the time to reply.

  • LekianLekian Member Posts: 108



    I might be alone in this (though I doubt it), but something like the EE is perfect for gamers like me. We don't want to take the time to figure out mods, where to find them, how they work, or how to make them not buggy. We want an easy buy of an old game that will work with our systems that has some new content.

    @paulsifer42
    I can guarantee you are not alone! This is exactly what I was trying to say some posts before!

    @Tanthalas
    As for the no loading screens great news!
    I am eager to read the post - LIST OF THINGS THAT WILL BE DONE!

    paulsifer42mch202SaithMasu
  • Lord_ToastLord_Toast Member Posts: 7
    I bought the Dungeons & Dragons Anthology for Windows 7 which came out last year. I will buy this version with updated graphics, GUI, and new content…because the old one makes my eyes bleed.

  • SaithMasuSaithMasu Member Posts: 17
    @Lekian
    thats a good point.
    I really wanna see this post too: LIST OF THINGS THAT WILL BE DONE!

    The release is in Summer 2012....well thats not a long time anymore.
    Yet we didnt see anything on a real screenshot, or a video.
    I have no problem if it takes one more year or even longer, as long as the result is good.
    For a game like BG i wanna all the heartbeat in it.

  • shadowtrollshadowtroll Member Posts: 2
    I think we all know what the end of summer means, I think the thing we all want to know is: will the game come out in late September or sometime earlier, like August?

  • LekianLekian Member Posts: 108
    @shadowtroll
    I would say if the summer ends on the 21st September, not before the 20th :-(
    If it comes any time before it would be very gratefull, but lets leave the crew over at Overhaul work on it as much as they can, I really think they have enough pressure from all parts.
    They have already anounced that they will be features post ship date.

  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    @shadowtroll I kind of doubt it will be Earlier than Sept 21st. This was the tweet that let us all know about Sept. in case you haven't seen it.

  • Kate_wiseKate_wise Member Posts: 12
    I would also like to voice my thanks to @AndreaColombo for such an informative post. It is really handy to see the limitation the team are facing.

    I really don't want to sound like a broken record but I am really disappointed to hear that old NPCs (joinable chars) cannot be modified/have content added. Is there any lee-way here?

    One of the more alluring potentials for BGEE seemed to be to to see it as an opportunity to link it more in line with the improvements made in BG2. As some people have mentioned for example, the specialised kits. But one of the major improvements to BG2 were all the NPC interjections and how 'populated' the world felt due to the character interactions and romances.

    Is this completely impossible, even within the frame of bringing NPC content more in-line with that of BG2?

    As I've mentioned before in Feature Requests, I regularly use BG1 NPCs and it makes the experience with BG1 and BG2 more seamless, and, at the end of the day, it makes BG1 more playable and open to revisiting...

    mch202
  • LozLoz Member Posts: 19
    I have to say that no new animations (no new monsters/no new animation for a potential new villain) makes me wonder about these new adventures. I can't see how they are going to stop them looking like old content repackaged, like some goblins and orcs from BG2 with a beholder boss. Very disappointing to be honest.

    I don't wish to offend anyone, and I'm sure the designers are working with quite a difficult contract, but can people honestly say this looks like its going to be what they envisaged an updated BG/BG2 as? I was thinking of BG with sharper, higher resolution graphics, massively improved AI/difficulty system and a half dozen fun new features like wizard hats or ironman mode. Instead it looks like an integrated tutu with a changed interface, a zoom and some new dungeons(populated with the same monsters from before).

    And there is the DLC... not to beat a dead horse but consider the difference between a film and a TV series. Going to get your fix every week isn't the same as considering a work as a whole. A TV series can be made of a good film, but is it the same experience?

    I recently played monkey island special edition and loved it - it was the old game updated to look and feel modern(ish). I'd prefer BG:EE had gone in a similar direction. Anyway, I've yet to see the the game and perhaps these fears are unfounded.

    SaithMasunooberFrozenCells
  • SaithMasuSaithMasu Member Posts: 17
    @MooseChangerPat
    If the EE still works together with the mods that are out there, than it doesent matter if they implement those things. They are already optional and you can install them with up to almost no knowledge how mods with the infinity engine works.

    Example?: http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/1pp
    Here you get access to Paperdoll and inventory item ports, along with many other things. Good thing though, that you decide what u want to install or not, so you not have to install the complete package.

    Along with the Tutu/BGT Mod you have access to all the BG2 content in BG1 as well already. Including of course the druid spell list.
    Even better you can decide if you want the models from BG1 or from BG2, you can decide if you want to change the hole interface of the Game or Not, you can decide if you want to use the best animations and models from all the infinity games combined, or not,...
    Believe me, all these things you ask are already done and if you are really intrested, you just need little to no time to make it work.
    Still, it would be great if the mods work all along with the new EE.
    The Mod Community from BG/BG2 is one of the greatest i ever have seen up to date, this has nothing to do with a bit tweaking there and adding stuff here,...u can almost model the Game in the way you want to.
    So EE can copy that an implement it in an easier way, sure, why not,...but if they dont...not that bad either, cause you still can make it work.
    The things that cant be changed by Mod Communitys is the Source Code, cause its copyrighted and they have no Access to.
    So No loading Screens is great, cause it just works with the EE Release, Zoom is great too cause it never could be done by the Mod Community.
    Beamdog should work more on the list what Mod Communitys can not do and everybody would be fine with that i guess.

  • MooseChangerPatMooseChangerPat Member Posts: 148
    @SaithMasu
    I realize there are many mods available that do the things I was suggesting, but I was mostly curious as to whether or not they would actually implement any of these mod based ideas themselves. I know many people I'm familiar with are rather untrusting of mods with the bugs and what not that can come into play. I'm of the personal opinion that they should incorporate both things that mods have done, and thing that mods cannot do, as many players do not want to take the time to go change it themselves.

    paulsifer42
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,208
    edited July 2012
    What I come away with:

    It sounds to me like some of the very high hopes for what could be done to improve the game--i.e., HD, new animations, new creatures, spells--are now reserved for BG3. But whatever else, please, please develop BG3 from our beloved, venerable Infinity engine and using the same DnD ruleset. I highly doubt that I would be interested in a 3D game* and/or a different DnD rulset.

    So for EE we'll gain some new areas, NPCs, and story material that will be presumably be of very high quality. Existing NPCs will interact with the new ones. That's still very attractive.

    But essentially we're getting some very high quality mods (for a fee).

    Custom mods developed by the fan community is one of the game's main attractions because it helps refresh the experience. I would not expect that custom mod 'draw' to change simply because some new content has been added to the game in EE.

    It seems to me then that the existing Tutu mod platform is very much alive with the series' Enhanced Editions. If what we are getting from the Enhanced Editions is fundamentally "just" what amounts to some new mods, I would therefore hope that the EEs for the two games supports/improves Tutu. With an overhaul to the game out of the question (and I fully appreciate and accept the reasons why it is not financially feasible), then I would implore Beamdog/Overhaul to please work vigorously toward helping the mod community continue to generate fresh content for the game.

    It's such a shame that the original artwork is lost. But it sounds like the cost of re-rendering the original artwork would have been prohibitive to begin with. It was basically a pipe dream for fans all along.



    * I actually dislike 3D games. To me, their attempts to render animations realistically inadvertently draws attention to the fact that they are artificial. There's something ironically more immersive for me about the Infinity Engine's comparatively more primitive 2D experience. In 2D animations are less in the forefront, and the focus falls more on the story and gameplay. Perhaps it's more like reading a book where the imagination takes over? At any rate, if BG3 does get made and it is in 3D I will likely not be interested.

    Post edited by Lemernis on
    QfwfqSaithMasu
  • QfwfqQfwfq Member Posts: 12
    Lemernis said:


    * I actually dislike 3D games. To me, their attempts to render animations realistically inadvertently draws attention to the fact that they are artificial. There's something ironically more immersive for me about the Infinity Engine's comparatively more primitive 2D experience. In 2D animations are less in the forefront, and the focus falls more on the story and gameplay. Perhaps it's more like reading a book where the imagination takes over? At any rate, if BG3 does get made and it is in 3D I will likely not be interested.

    I like what you wrote there. Just because it says '3D' doesn't mean it's progressive at all. Similar to the money making fad of 3D cinema screenings(...god they look bad). A camera lens makes things close to you BIG and far away small. Classic. It works. Similarly, there is a style in the Infinity Engine that allows for us to be completely convinced. I don't really think Dragon Age/Neverwinter Nights was a good look at all...

    Kate_wise
  • SaithMasuSaithMasu Member Posts: 17
    edited July 2012
    @Qfwfq
    Well at that time Neverwinter Nights had decent graphics, but as all 3D Games they are very short lived, so a couple of years later they are already old. Same will happen to DA. The graphics are okay, now....but wait a few years and you see the difference...
    And thats why i like Infinity Graphics, cause they are timeless, pretty much. Okay, i would prefer a better lightning, a smoother handling and stuff, but all in all, they are timless in my opinion.
    I understand now why Bioware was not able to relive this franchise...
    1) of course it doesent squeeze out the money
    2) they lost the content
    I am just sad about that fact, just sad, cause how in the nine hell can you loose content if you not want to..
    If i have stuff on my computer and dont know if i need it anymore, i just save it elsewhere, who knows...
    If i know i dont need it anymore i get rid of it, so easy as that and i guess Bioware just thrown away there best game ever created...and what for? I think i do not need to mention that, cause its sad too...
    Like Trent Oster said, people likely prefer the 13. Call of Battlefield nowadays...

    lichmaster
  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    Lemernis said:

    What I come away with:
    But essentially we're getting some very high quality mods (for a fee).
    [...]
    It seems to me then that the existing Tutu mod platform is very much alive with the series' Enhanced Editions. If what we are getting from the Enhanced Editions is fundamentally "just" what amounts to some new mods, I would therefore hope that the EEs for the two games supports/improves Tutu. With an overhaul to the game out of the question (and I fully appreciate and accept the reasons why it is not financially feasible), then I would implore Beamdog/Overhaul to please work vigorously toward helping the mod community continue to generate fresh content for the game.

    It's such a shame that the original artwork is lost. But it sounds like the cost of re-rendering the original artwork would have been prohibitive to begin with. It was basically a pipe dream for fans all along.

    @Lemernis Could you explain what it was that brought you to the conclusion (from this thread) that all EE is going to be is "'just' what amounts to some new mods"? It seems that this is what a lot of people are coming away with and I'm not sure why that's happening. I understand that this thread has already reiterated things many times, but now that the activity has died down I would like to emphasize one more time that which this enhancement is doing:

    The entire BG series will now be running on an updated and enhanced Throne of Bhaal engine, which will essentially cover a number of the advantages from BGT/Tutu, in that everything will run in the BG2 engine, and also several improvements (the scope of which were not really aware of yet) are being made to the engine itself. Support for a huge range of resolutions without the use of a mod will be available, not to mention zoom. If you want a more complete list of stuff, reread this thread, but one thing I'd like to mention as it pertains to your comments:

    The modding community is here on this forum and the development team is working with them in order to make BG:EE more modder-friendly than the original by externalizing things, enabling modders to do things that they never could before. When I say the modding community, I mean the actual modders that have created all the mods that are mentioned as being essential to BG. So, modders will be able to do things for BG:EE that they never could for BG.

    mch202
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    @jaysl659
    I think a lot of this will get cleared up when @AndreaColombo does the "What BG:EE is doing." Someone would have to dig quite a bit in this thread to figure out what we're all saying it is doing.

  • ElectricMonkElectricMonk Member Posts: 599
    @paulsifer42 fair enough, I just worry that people will join the forum and take something away from it that will keep them from buying the game, without really understanding the facts... I'd be willing to create a temporary list of "What BG:EE Is Doing" or something along these lines which could be deleted when @AndreaColombo got his finished if he so desired, I just think that getting only a list of "THINGS THAT CAN'T BE DONE" up without then getting the optimistic side of the coin up as soon as possible was sort of a bad idea.

    paulsifer42SaithMasuMornmagor
  • paulsifer42paulsifer42 Member Posts: 267
    @ jaysl659 I fully agree with you on this point. Actually, when I saw the heading of this thread I thought, "Oh, come on. Why dash people's hopes?" But I see why he did it, people were making requests that simply weren't going to happen, and them getting blindsided would have sucked. But I DO think we need a positive thread. What the game WILL be doing, along with why it's worth the purchase. Honestly, I think 'no more load screens' should be the first thing on the list.

    CuvTheGrapeTyphlosion
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