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Calling all Bard experts -Blades in particular!-

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  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Does Chelsey Crusher still work favourably for a blade? Specifically, is it possible to get more than 1 APR with Chelsey Crusher with haste and/or offensive spin?
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,735
    Halberds deal piercing damage, which is ok at best. Some of the most damaging weapons are in fact crushing weapons - that's why I'd choose Aule's Staff +3 for a bard if we talk about two-handed weapons.

    Moreover, I think it's better to use a ranged weapon for a blade than a two-handed melee weapon, the Light Crossbow of speed is the best for him.

    If talking about melee weapons... Because a blade is destined to be a pro in two-weapon style, I'd take Icingdeath (+3 Frostbrand) in the right hand and Stupifier in the left hand (the latter can be changed to the Dagger of Venom if you wish). Even without good THACO for you left hand it's worth it.

    From the start
    *Scimitars (it's worth to mention you'd get a choice between both piercing and slashing weapons)
    *Crossbows
    4th level
    *TWF
    8th level
    **TWF

    And in BG2 at the 12th level you put * into katanas, take Celestial Fury into your right hand and Belm (already the type of weapon you've put * in) in the left hand.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Wowo said:

    Does Chelsey Crusher still work favourably for a blade? Specifically, is it possible to get more than 1 APR with Chelsey Crusher with haste and/or offensive spin?

    It shouldn't be, but I've not tested this. Also you would be missing out on one of the best things about a Blade, I.e. the ability to dual wield properly. Halberds and staves are better for Skalds or Jesters.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited February 2013
    Currently, the Chelsey Crusher SETs APR to 1, so this should override the effect of Offensive Spin, just as it overrides bonus attacks from specialisation and fighter levels. Given that this implementation is bugging ranged weapons at the moment, it might change in the next patch, but I wouldn't count on it. Not a good weapon for blades.

    Scimiters: if you are not going to cheese Dizzt (and I never do), not the best choice in BG1. +2 is easily available, but boring.

    Stupifier: as maces do 2-7, not the best weapon for offensive spin, and the short supply of additional good maces makes it not so good a choice for dual wielding. An NPC might be able to get more out of this weapon.

    I would go with long swords or B swords with maybe katana as a second weapon at level 8 or 12.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    bengoshi said:

    Halberds deal piercing damage, which is ok at best. Some of the most damaging weapons are in fact crushing weapons - that's why I'd choose Aule's Staff +3 for a bard if we talk about two-handed weapons.

    Moreover, I think it's better to use a ranged weapon for a blade than a two-handed melee weapon, the Light Crossbow of speed is the best for him.

    If talking about melee weapons... Because a blade is destined to be a pro in two-weapon style, I'd take Icingdeath (+3 Frostbrand) in the right hand and Stupifier in the left hand (the latter can be changed to the Dagger of Venom if you wish). Even without good THACO for you left hand it's worth it.

    From the start
    *Scimitars (it's worth to mention you'd get a choice between both piercing and slashing weapons)
    *Crossbows
    4th level
    *TWF
    8th level
    **TWF

    And in BG2 at the 12th level you put * into katanas, take Celestial Fury into your right hand and Belm (already the type of weapon you've put * in) in the left hand.

    Interesting ideas but not sure I see the logic. Off handing dagger/mace at level 4 would see a massive -9 to-hit penalty. Even level 8 only sees that reduce to -7. From observing combat feed I just don't see that worthwhile on a bard.

    Even if you we're hitting the proc rate on Stupifier is low enough that it deserves to be a mainhand weapon.

    Barring possible APR differences between Chelsey Crusher and staff there's a 3 damage difference (5 during offensive spin) and enough proficiency points for halberd, staff, crossbow and THF'ing so it can all fit (to cater for different enemies).

    With the significance of the offhand attack for a blade (~1/3 of DPS) I'm settled on the idea of 1 weapon plus *** in TWF which sees two weapons being viable sooner and remains important with the 3rd slot I think as it will lead to extra hits (3.3-5% extra damage depending on spin/haste assuming you don't hit on a 2).

    That said I definitely see the importance of a ranged weapon. I guess my aim is to have my cake and eat it too.
    Options:
    Halberd/crossbow/THF'ing/staff
    Dagger/TWF
    Axe/TWF
    Scimitar/TWF

    Maybe axe is the best bet with decent use of blade max damage (in comparison to daggers), max APR (in comparison to THF'ing), solid ranged (in comparison to scimitar) and some interesting named options (mainly vs casters).

    Would be different too.

    Hmm.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    edited February 2013
    Wowo said:

    bengoshi said:

    Halberds deal piercing damage, which is ok at best. Some of the most damaging weapons are in fact crushing weapons - that's why I'd choose Aule's Staff +3 for a bard if we talk about two-handed weapons.

    Moreover, I think it's better to use a ranged weapon for a blade than a two-handed melee weapon, the Light Crossbow of speed is the best for him.

    If talking about melee weapons... Because a blade is destined to be a pro in two-weapon style, I'd take Icingdeath (+3 Frostbrand) in the right hand and Stupifier in the left hand (the latter can be changed to the Dagger of Venom if you wish). Even without good THACO for you left hand it's worth it.

    From the start
    *Scimitars (it's worth to mention you'd get a choice between both piercing and slashing weapons)
    *Crossbows
    4th level
    *TWF
    8th level
    **TWF

    And in BG2 at the 12th level you put * into katanas, take Celestial Fury into your right hand and Belm (already the type of weapon you've put * in) in the left hand.

    Interesting ideas but not sure I see the logic. Off handing dagger/mace at level 4 would see a massive -9 to-hit penalty. Even level 8 only sees that reduce to -7. From observing combat feed I just don't see that worthwhile on a bard.

    Even if you we're hitting the proc rate on Stupifier is low enough that it deserves to be a mainhand weapon.

    Barring possible APR differences between Chelsey Crusher and staff there's a 3 damage difference (5 during offensive spin) and enough proficiency points for halberd, staff, crossbow and THF'ing so it can all fit (to cater for different enemies).

    With the significance of the offhand attack for a blade (~1/3 of DPS) I'm settled on the idea of 1 weapon plus *** in TWF which sees two weapons being viable sooner and remains important with the 3rd slot I think as it will lead to extra hits (3.3-5% extra damage depending on spin/haste assuming you don't hit on a 2).

    That said I definitely see the importance of a ranged weapon. I guess my aim is to have my cake and eat it too.
    Options:
    Halberd/crossbow/THF'ing/staff
    Dagger/TWF
    Axe/TWF
    Scimitar/TWF

    Maybe axe is the best bet with decent use of blade max damage (in comparison to daggers), max APR (in comparison to THF'ing), solid ranged (in comparison to scimitar) and some interesting named options (mainly vs casters).

    Would be different too.

    Hmm.
    Dagger is a very bad choice for a blade, you want something that takes advantage of the max damage offensive spin gives you, a dagger only does 4 damage (except for Longtooth, but you can't get that until late game). I think for me, for a blade the criteria are for melee weapons: must be dual-wield-able, must do at least 6-8 base damage, should be a sword of some type (for RP reasons - the kit is a "Blade" after all...), ideally should also be "speed weapon" variants in BG2. That leaves short swords (Kundane) and Scimitars (Belm, Scarlet Ninja-To). In BGEE in particular, a ranged weapon is also very useful, as a Blade does not get really strong in melee until BG2. Not many NPCs pick crossbows, and the Light Crossbow of Speed (also available in BG2, though Firetooth is better later) does 8+1 base damage and 3 APR under offensive spin, so I chose that. Crossbows also seem more "Bard-like" IMHO.

    Also, I think you should only allow yourself to pickpocket Drizzt's Simitars if a non-good alignment, for RP reasons, so that just leaves the +3 Icing Death Scimitar.
    Post edited by Oxford_Guy on
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    I don't see BG2 as relevant. For one, BG2:EE is a while away and more importantly a blade can afford to pick up that weapon later with the extra pips from level 12+.

    Either way its really hard to get away from scimitar no matter how hard I try. Even without proficiency you'll still hit decently often with a crossbow or longbow and bracers of archery (considered in comparison to NPCs who rarely have 18+ dex).

    Even without Drizzt' weapons scimitars still seem superior considering that there are 2 +2 ones available not too far into the game. This is a quality only shared with daggers which are a low base die. Axes, long swords, katana don't have a decent offhand weapon available at all in terms of + while short sword does but it isn't available until the game is basically over.

    When you include D's Scims the difference is huge without considering the potent special qualities.

    Whether or not its reasonable to kill or pickpocket drizzt isn't relevant to this conversation as that's a personal choice and at the end of the day we're considering alternatives anyway.

    I see no issue whatsoever using weapons other than swords on a bard and is another RP centric opinion that isn't particularly relevant to this convo and seems needlessly restrictive. Just rename the kit in your head to "Axe" or do it in SK if it really bothers you. Not to mention that axes certainly have blades anyway. I could almost see a back story there, all the Nordic skald bards ostracised this blade who cared more about his axes than the Nordic stories so he went adventuring. Doesn't really fit with candlekeep but anyway.

    Seriously though, using an axe on a blade isn't any worse than using a crossbow during offensive spin, don't you think?

    Xan's Moonblade would be such a perfect solution ...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Dual wielding Bala's Axe and Golden Axe would be good against casters...

    As for longswords, Vasconia+Harrower is available earlier than the +2 scimiters.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Wowo said:

    I don't see BG2 as relevant. For one, BG2:EE is a while away and more importantly a blade can afford to pick up that weapon later with the extra pips from level 12+.

    Bards get very few proficiency points, though, especially if going the dual-wield route, so you need to spend them carefully! In BG2 you get the next two only at level 12 and 16. I'd probably pick Katanas for 12, then TWF *** at 16.
    Wowo said:


    Either way its really hard to get away from scimitar no matter how hard I try. Even without proficiency you'll still hit decently often with a crossbow or longbow and bracers of archery (considered in comparison to NPCs who rarely have 18+ dex).

    True, if using the Heavy Crossbow of Accuracy or the Deadshot Longbow, more problematic with the other options, but you probably have another NPC who can make better use of the Deadshot, at least.
    Wowo said:


    Even without Drizzt' weapons scimitars still seem superior considering that there are 2 +2 ones available not too far into the game. This is a quality only shared with daggers which are a low base die. Axes, long swords, katana don't have a decent offhand weapon available at all in terms of + while short sword does but it isn't available until the game is basically over.

    When you include D's Scims the difference is huge without considering the potent special qualities.

    Also have both piercing and slashing options with Scimitar profiency is nice (e.g. piercing is better against the guy in the bandit camp with the Full Plate)
    Wowo said:


    Whether or not its reasonable to kill or pickpocket drizzt isn't relevant to this conversation as that's a personal choice and at the end of the day we're considering alternatives anyway.

    Sure, that's just the way I RP it
    Wowo said:


    I see no issue whatsoever using weapons other than swords on a bard and is another RP centric opinion that isn't particularly relevant to this convo and seems needlessly restrictive. Just rename the kit in your head to "Axe" or do it in SK if it really bothers you. Not to mention that axes certainly have blades anyway. I could almost see a back story there, all the Nordic skald bards ostracised this blade who cared more about his axes than the Nordic stories so he went adventuring. Doesn't really fit with candlekeep but anyway.

    Seriously though, using an axe on a blade isn't any worse than using a crossbow during offensive spin, don't you think?

    Wowo said:


    Xan's Moonblade would be such a perfect solution ...

    It's because of this kind of thing that UAI is so great for a Bard in BG2, as it opens up lots of interesting options (though not until level 24!)
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Fardragon said:

    Dual wielding Bala's Axe and Golden Axe would be good against casters...

    As for longswords, Vasconia+Harrower is available earlier than the +2 scimiters.

    Yes, but you're more likely to have an NPC who can make use of those weapons, whereas Safana is the only NPC with Scimitar proficiency. Also, there are no speed weapon long swords in BG2, though if going the evil route, Blackrazor is very nice...
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Rasaad has scimiter proficiency, and I usually give Jalhera a few pips in scimiter. Faldorn may also want to use scimiters. Khalid and Shar-teel are the only NPCs who start with longsword proficency.

    As already pointed out, BG2 doesn't matter, because there is plenty opportunity for a Blade to learn additional weapons later.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Fardragon said:

    Rasaad has scimiter proficiency, and I usually give Jalhera a few pips in scimiter. Faldorn may also want to use scimiters. Khalid and Shar-teel are the only NPCs who start with longsword proficency.

    I thought Coran had longswords too?
    Fardragon said:


    As already pointed out, BG2 doesn't matter, because there is plenty opportunity for a Blade to learn additional weapons later.

    In BG2 a blade only gets additional proficiency points at levels 12, 16, 20, 24 etc., so if going the dual-wielding route, they don't actually have that many points to spare early on in BG2

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    If Coran ever uses a melee weapon he is an idiot.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Hmmm... I'm now thinking of restarting my NG Blade (the one shown in the screenshot in page 1) as a CN Blade (so I don't feel wrong pick-pocketing Drizzt, though I'll only be able to use Icing Death), and dropping crossbow proficiency (but picking up the heavy crossbow of accuracy later to use without proficiency), and just going Scimitar * and two weapon style *, then two weapon style at level 4 and 8, so that I can start dual-wielding from level 4 without penalty to the main hand. Ultimately I'll wield the +3 Icing Death in the main hand and +2 Rashad's Talon in the off-hand (or the +1 Wakazashi against opponents in plate armour etc.). In BG2 I'll likely pick Katanas at level 12 (or maybe shortswords to dual wield Belm and Kundane...)

    I hadn't gone very far with Sebastien, so there's not loads of time lost.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Kagain has 1 pip in long swords, if I'm not mistaken.
  • In BG2 a blade only gets additional proficiency points at levels 12, 16, 20, 24 etc., so if going the dual-wielding route, they don't actually have that many points to spare early on in BG2

    Yeah, but if you're importing from BGEE, you're likely at level 10 already from the level cap, and Bards level up fast, so it doesn't take long to slot those couple of extra weapons into place.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064

    Kagain has 1 pip in long swords, if I'm not mistaken.

    Kagain has axe**, flail and crossbow and puts all extras into axe.
  • AnaximanderAnaximander Member Posts: 191
    Can a blade get +2 strength from the tears of bhaal? I need some clarification, this seems to be the thread to ask :D
  • FafnirFafnir Member Posts: 232

    Can a blade get +2 strength from the tears of bhaal? I need some clarification, this seems to be the thread to ask :D

    Why wouldn't it?
  • hansolohansolo Member Posts: 136

    Can a blade get +2 strength from the tears of bhaal? I need some clarification, this seems to be the thread to ask :D

    A Bard, choosing the Evil Wrath test, would get +2 STR and +1 DEX
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Wowo said:

    Kagain has 1 pip in long swords, if I'm not mistaken.

    Kagain has axe**, flail and crossbow and puts all extras into axe.
    Flail? O.o I guess I always picked him on low levels then, I never saw him with a flail prof.

  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064

    Wowo said:

    Kagain has 1 pip in long swords, if I'm not mistaken.

    Kagain has axe**, flail and crossbow and puts all extras into axe.
    Flail? O.o I guess I always picked him on low levels then, I never saw him with a flail prof.

    Level 1 Kagain has Flail.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    So finally got around to testing this. It seems that the blade ability "Offensive Spin" overcomes the drawback of the Chelsey Crusher "set attacks/round to 1" and gives 2 attacks/round.

    Comparing:
    1d10+6 damage maxed, 2/round = 32 damage for Chelsey Crusher
    1d8+3 damage maxed, 3/round = 33 damage for Drizzt' Scimitars

    Obviously the comparison is more complicated than that:
    with 18 strength:
    (10+8)*2=36
    (8+5)*3=39
    with THF'ing style:
    (10+9)*2=38
    (8+5)*3=39
    with crits assuming hitting on a 2 (in all other cases crits will be more significant):
    38*21/20=39.9
    39*20/20=39
    with crits assuming hitting on a 8 for CC and 7 for scims:
    38*15/20=28.5
    39*41/60=26.7
    with 19 strength:
    48*15/20=36
    54*41/60=36.9

    The real benefit of the Chelsey Crusher is that you have spare pips for other things like Crossbow and something else (I'm considering Greatsword or Quarterstaff depending on NPCs).

    Other considerations are the reach of such weapons keeping charname safe in a hardcore run vs the lack of a single handed weapon to wield with a shield when in "tanking" mode.

    Of course overall Drizzts Scims are better due to their special abilities but this at least provides a viable alternative damage wise.

    Heading into BG2 the Scims are obviously the way to go but this observation is just in the context of BG1 where it is so important to have a good THAC0 and a ranged weapon option.
  • Oxford_GuyOxford_Guy Member Posts: 3,729
    Wowo said:

    So finally got around to testing this. It seems that the blade ability "Offensive Spin" overcomes the drawback of the Chelsey Crusher "set attacks/round to 1" and gives 2 attacks/round.

    I think this is a known bug and will be fixed in the next patch
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