They should let Neera get grabbed by Irenicus. She gets a little bit of torture here and there, nothing too fancy. And, boom! Her voice is more croaky, less annoying, and doesn't feel so out of place.
Montaron ... provides a counterpart to Jan Jansen due to the multiclass
I don't understand the constant clamour from some people for an Evil thief, or why anyone thinks they need an "Evil counterpart" to Jan. Jan's alignment is Chaotic NEUTRAL, folks. He'll work with either Good or Evil parties. He's already just as much an "Evil" thief as a "Good" one.
Do we really need a second NPC thief for Evil parties? If there's some reason for that, then perhaps there's an equal need for a new Good thief (I mean a continuing thief, not someone who took a few levels and dualled to something else, thereby preventing further development as a thief). I assume the reason the original developers made Jan as a Neutral character was precisely so that both Good and Evil parties had a continuing thief who would work with them, on the basis that this saves the need to create two different thief characters to suit differently-aligned parties.
Or is it the case that those who like playing Evil are simply bored with having only one all-through-BG2 option for their thief needs, and want some variety? If so, then would you be satisfied (as Good parties have to be) with the alternative choice being an Evil counterpart of Imoen or Nalia, i.e. an NPC with modest thieving skills but already dualled into something else by the time we meet them? That'd provide better parity of choice between Good and Evil parties than an Evil-aligned pure thief, since there's no Good-aligned pure thief. Yet another Thief->Mage might not be exciting, but now that EE has addressed the shortage of good clubs (and since there were always a variety of good slings and staves), the Thief->Cleric build is no longer such a stupid idea, and Thief->Fighter has always been a viable option (albeit a pretty rare choice). How about a Thief(7)->Fighter(x) character, would that satisfy you? (Seven levels of thief is sufficient to take care of the trap-finding and lock-picking needs in BG2, as Good parties find by taking Imoen instead of Jan. If a Good party wants to do more advanced thief things, then it has to take Jan - same as an Evil party would.)
Personally I more often play Good, but not always: I'm currently running an Evil party in BGee (and I'm planning an Evil run for BG2ee when it arrives). My questions above are genuine, I'd like to understand why people are desperate for an(other) Evil thief.
@Nifft: If BG:EE is any indication, this is quite likely - in my current playthrough Dorn has argued with Shar-Teel, and Neera and Viconia both commented when I picked up Baeloth...
@Gallowglass: I think there are several factors at work here.
1. There's something to be said for compatibility in terms of personality rather than alignment - Faldorn and Jaheira are both nominally True Neutral, but they're very different people. Just because Jan is Neutral doesn't mean he fits in with a group that includes Edwin, Korgan and Viconia. (Yoshimo does, but... well. You know how that goes.)
2. This is a point that's been raised often in other threads, but the way Good/Evil RPs break down in the BG series is that Good parties get more rewards for choosing heroic actions (store discounts, more XP/gold, etc.) while Evil parties are comprised of the most powerful NPCs in the game (Edwin is the best mage, Korgan and Sarevok are the best fighters, Viconia is the best cleric). This is to offset the fact that Evil characters level up more slowly and have to work a lot harder to scrounge up gold for equipment. Taking that into account, there should be an evil thief who represents the "elite" of her class, if only to maintain that same balance.
3. BG:EE has twenty-nine NPCs - it's entirely possible to assemble a full and balanced party of any alignment. BG2, as it originally stands, has a much smaller pool of characters, and only three are actually Evil (compared to nine Good characters, which include two with thieving skills in Nalia and Imoen). Those three are a Fighter, a Conjurer and a Cleric - assuming your PC isn't a thief, it's going to be very difficult for you to get through the game without someone disabling traps and unlocking doors. Possible, yes, but difficult.
1. Hmm, well, I'm not so sure about that. Jan banters and argues quite a lot (and often in a pretty hostile way) with several of the Good NPCs, whereas he's relatively quiet with the Evil NPCs. It could well be said that he gets on better with the Evil crowd.
2. I agree about Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok being best-of-class. Viconia is an excellent pure cleric, but once Anomen becomes Sir Anomen (and gets a major stats-boost) he's not far behind as a cleric, and he's much better than her at both ranged and melee combat, so which of them is better is not so clear-cut ... but of course, fitting with the rest of your party usually decides that issue for you. The idea of needing to compensate for tougher levelling and tougher purchasing rather depends on play-style: when I play Evil, I tend to go for the smart-Evil approach, i.e. keeping a fairly high reputation (although for selfish motives rather than altruistic motives), which I reckon is certainly consistent with the character of Edwin (and to some extent Viconia and Sarevok), rather than just slaughtering everyone in sight (which would be what Korgan would like to do). That way the levelling and purchasing isn't much different from a Good party ... but yes, if you play just plain bloodthirsty, then it's much tougher progress. However, thief characters are generally supposed to be crafty and sneaky, more in keeping with the smart-Evil approach, not bloodthirsty maniacs like Korgan, so an Evil thief should still prefer the type of party which keeps up a moderate reputation and doesn't have too much trouble levelling and buying. So in that case, I reckon it might as well be Jan rather than a dedicated-Evil thief!
3. Agreed, but when (as usual) I'm playing Good, I don't have every single party member Good - I usually have a Neutral in there as well (often Jaheira) and sometimes another (maybe Jan or Haer'Dalis). Do other people habitually run parties which must all be of strictly one alignment? I agree there should be a little more choice on the Evil side, but even so I don't see why Evil parties shouldn't also include a Neutral or two, so I don't see a problem with using Jan to supply the thief skills.
Personally, what I reckon is currently most lacking on the Evil side of BG2:SoA is another choice of warrior to stand up front with Korgan, because there aren't many Neutral warriors to fill the gap. Of course this particular lack is now being addressed by the forthcoming inclusion of Dorn in BG2ee, but nevertheless a Neutral warrior of some sort would still be an excellent addition.
I suggest that a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Fighter/Thief would cover several under-represented aspects all in one character, and be more useful to more different styles of party than any other single addition I can envisage. I reckon this is more needed than an strictly-Evil thief, but if you must have the latter then I suggest that a Neutral Evil Human Thief(7)->Fighter (with thief skills in OpenLocks and FindTraps) would be a more rounded addition than a pureclass thief, or maybe a Lawful Evil Human Bountyhunter(11)->Fighter (with thief skills in OpenLocks and FindTraps and SetTraps) met a little later in the game.
It comes down to the old issue: Good and neutral parties have a choice. They *can* run mixed parties if they want. Evil is *forced* to do that. I'm not saying that an all-good or all-neutral party is perfectly balanced in a fighter-caster-healer-thief sense, but it is possible to have a party of all the same alignment. (Even after the mystery evil female thief and Dorn are added, evil parties will be limited to exactly 1 party combination, while good and neutral have options.) Which can play a role for a roleplayer. To me, Jan Jansen is like Jaheira or Neera - neutral on paper, but a much better fit for good/neutral parties. He's quirky, but good-quirky. Tiax is evil-quirky. Quayle is more-evil-quirky than good-quirky, too. Mixed alignment parties mean rep management, which is another reason why I like to avoid it. It is no fun to hear my entire party complain all day, and someone will be complaining if you try to satisfy all alignments at once.
There is also nothing preventing good or neutral parties from recruiting Montaron. It's not like evil NPCs are off limits for them. Many take Edwin or Viconia, or now Dorn, be it for their power, their personality/backstory or the novelty.
1. Hmm, well, I'm not so sure about that. Jan banters and argues quite a lot (and often in a pretty hostile way) with several of the Good NPCs, whereas he's relatively quiet with the Evil NPCs. It could well be said that he gets on better with the Evil crowd.
It could also be said that he simply has more banters with Good NPCs, which Sorcerer's Place confirms with a 5:2 ratio (5:3 if you count Sarevok).
2. I agree about Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok being best-of-class. Viconia is an excellent pure cleric, but once Anomen becomes Sir Anomen (and gets a major stats-boost) he's not far behind as a cleric, and he's much better than her at both ranged and melee combat, so which of them is better is not so clear-cut ...
Ah, but this assumes you complete Anomen's quest successfully. Not everyone manages that, and Viconia has no such prerequisites. Moreover, only Anomen's WIS score improves when he makes the transition; his DEX remains at 10 versus Viconia's 19.
The idea of needing to compensate for tougher levelling and tougher purchasing rather depends on play-style: when I play Evil, I tend to go for the smart-Evil approach, i.e. keeping a fairly high reputation (although for selfish motives rather than altruistic motives), which I reckon is certainly consistent with the character of Edwin (and to some extent Viconia and Sarevok), rather than just slaughtering everyone in sight (which would be what Korgan would like to do). That way the levelling and purchasing isn't much different from a Good party ... but yes, if you play just plain bloodthirsty, then it's much tougher progress.
The problem is that alignment, reputation and personality are a bit jumbled up here. Yes, Viconia and Edwin would certainly seem to prefer a more subtle approach, but they'll complain constantly if your reputation rises above a certain threshold.
However, thief characters are generally supposed to be crafty and sneaky, more in keeping with the smart-Evil approach, not bloodthirsty maniacs like Korgan, so an Evil thief should still prefer the type of party which keeps up a moderate reputation and doesn't have too much trouble levelling and buying. So in that case, I reckon it might as well be Jan rather than a dedicated-Evil thief!
I don't follow your reasoning here: whatever the personality and preferences of your party members, at the end of the day they still follow you no matter what your approach is. Some Thief characters certainly fit the sneaky/crafty personality type, but Montaron and Coran don't; neither does Nalia, really. There's something problematic in the notion that evil parties must rely on Jan - and only Jan - for thieving purposes. Good PCs don't have that restriction.
3. Agreed, but when (as usual) I'm playing Good, I don't have every single party member Good - I usually have a Neutral in there as well (often Jaheira) and sometimes another (maybe Jan or Haer'Dalis). Do other people habitually run parties which must all be of strictly one alignment? I agree there should be a little more choice on the Evil side, but even so I don't see why Evil parties shouldn't also include a Neutral or two, so I don't see a problem with using Jan to supply the thief skills.
@KidCarnival makes a valid point: mixing alignments is certainly possible - before Baeloth came along, I had Neera alongside Dorn, Montaron, Viconia and Shar-Teel, and it was perfectly fine - but in BG2, it's mandatory for Evil PCs. This is in contrast to BG1, where you could play a mixed party if you wanted to, but there were enough NPCs to accommodate any configuration.
Personally, what I reckon is currently most lacking on the Evil side of BG2:SoA is another choice of warrior to stand up front with Korgan, because there aren't many Neutral warriors to fill the gap.
As you noted, the addition of Dorn has addressed this.
Of course this particular lack is now being addressed by the forthcoming inclusion of Dorn in BG2ee, but nevertheless a Neutral warrior of some sort would still be an excellent addition.
I don't disagree - in fact, I'm rather hoping that if the devs do add a Neutral type, it'll be a female barbarian both because Barbarians are the last core class that lack corresponding NPCs and because Jaheira is currently the only woman capable of front-line combat (Mazzy may be a Fighter, but she's more suited for ranged attacks).
However, I don't see why one should come at the expense of the other. Presumably BG2:EE will have more than one new NPC.
I'll be very surprised if Rasaad, Dorn and Neera don't reappear as joinable in BG2:EE. I especially want to see Rasaad come into his own.
Am I recalling correctly from back in the fall or summer that devs commented that the relationships with the PC started in BG:EE will become romances in BG2:EE?
@Lemernis: I think both were confirmed at the Reddit AMA - that Dorn, Neera and Rasaad would be back for BG2:EE, and that the romance storylines would be expanded.
About the Anomen vs. Viconia thing. There is also the fact that there is no way Anomen (or anyone except Baeloth) can get her natural 50 % magic resistance. Of course, there are items that give MR, but from a simple "more = better" point of view, Viconia can wear them and come out with higher MR than any other NPC. (Baeloth may be a bit more limited due his inability to wear armor and helms, but the same is true for him vs other arcane casters.)
More importantly: Both have the option to change alignment. If they do, Anomen still stays in the majority group, and still fits in good/neutral parties. Viconia leaves the minority of evil NPCs, reducing their ranks further. If Anomen falls, it merely changes his attitude, but not his breaking point (as neutral, he'll be fine with 20 rep) and that is the "fail quest" outcome. If you *succeed* with Viconia, she goes from evil-minority to neutral/good-majority and changes her attitude. Love *redeems* her to become a better person, which isn't really a win for an evil party, since she'll now complain/leave at a point where other evil NPCs won't. This would be a win for a good/neutral party that doesn't want her to leave at 18+ rep.
A neutral NPC who can be corrupted to evil would be a "win" situation for evil parties. The way Viconia's quest works, it's actually a quest for good/neutral parties want to "win" and evil wants to "lose". If I want an all evil party, I must fail with her quest (or not do it at all) to keep her in line with the rest of the NPCs. The reward for success shouldn't be to make an NPC less compatible with a group.
Thinking about it, I'd say that would be my wish for the new NPCs: That they start out neutral and come with personal quests that can either make them good or evil (or not be played, so they stay neutral). That should satisfy every alignment and the NPC only needs an interesting class.
Ya, avoiding the romance works, or intentionally failing it. I still feel it's not really a "reward" from an evil viewpoint to redeem her away from the alignment of the party. Corrupting someone would feel more like success, i.e. turn Keldorn into a Blackguard. Na, seriously, that would be out of character for him... (And evil needs an NPC to envy good for, too!) I'd say Neera would make a fine target, corrupt her into active abuse of her wild magic, but if there is one thing evil already has in abundance, it's spellpower.
@Gallowglass Jan's one of my favorite NPCs, but he just doesn't fit my idea of Evil CHARNAME assembling the most talented crew of badasses they can acquire to shield them from all those assassination attempts (BG1) and raid a magical superfortress (BG2). Granted, Jan is clearly quite skilled, being a genius inventor, skilled burglar, and decent mage, but he lacks a certain professionalism and ruthlessness. I'm looking forward to an Evil Thief NPC to bring to the table the alignment, a kit, and a possible new romance.
@shawne Totally agree that if there's a Neutral warrior it should be a Barbarian. My love of strong warrior chicks wants me to agree about the idea of a female Barbarian, but I think Overhaul needs to patch another grievous hole in BG2's hull: the poor ratio of romances for female CHARNAMEs. If they retain the three new characters per game momentum, I'd like to see a True Neutral male human Barbarian, a Neutral Evil female dwarf or half-orc Assassin, and a Lawful Neutral half-elf mage of some kind.
@Schneidend: Actually, factoring in the BGEE NPCs, the romance ratio is currently 4:3 (Jaheira, Viconia, Aerie, Neera to Anomen, Rasaad and Dorn), which isn't too bad at all.
With Neera and Baeloth (assuming Baeloth can be recruited again in BG2), I think we're covered for new mage characters, but I'm really hoping the new evil thief won't be an Assassin or a Shadowdancer, because that would undermine the whole reason she's needed in the first place: those particular kits really slow down the development of thief skills (15 points per level instead of 25)...
@shawne Hm, good points all around. I think I had a complete brain fart and forgot Rasaad and Dorn were romanceable by the ladies. I still want a romanceable dwarf or half-orc lady, though!
I do certainly hope Baeloth does in fact make a return in BG2. I didn't know he was a hidden companion until just recently, but I love his characterization in The Black Pits and intend to re-roll my Blackguard to pick up Baeloth.
I'm all for female dwarf, half-orc or gnome, simply because this gender-race combination isn't there yet. We have 3 male dwarves, 2 male gnomes and 1 male half-orc. All other races have at least 1 female NPC in each game.
@Madhax: I was actually going by the gender of the love interest rather than the PC - four women to three men.
@KidCarnival: Baeloth is hilarious, Mark Meer is basically channeling Mark Hamill's Joker to spectacular effect. (The fact that he's an extraordinarily powerful Sorcerer is a bonus for Evil parties such as mine!)
@shawne, @KidCarnival: I agreed from the start that the Evil choice ought to be expanded, it's just the specific emphasis on an Evil thief which I was questioning. You've helped explain the thinking behind this campaign, so thanks for that, but I remain unconvinced. Yes, Evil parties are forced to rely only on Jan for any sort of thieving capability, and that's an undesirable restriction ... but on the other hand, if a Good party wants a continuing thief who can develop, then they're also forced to rely on Jan.
That's why I reckon it's a better idea to have either a new Neutral thief (or multiclass including thief) who can be used by either alignment, or (to expand the strictly-Evil options) an Evil human who has dualled-classed out of thief after gaining basic thief skills (corresponding to Imoen or Nalia for the Good guys). Or both, that'd be excellent!
However, I don't see why one should come at the expense of the other. Presumably BG2:EE will have more than one new NPC.
Agreed. However, Dorn, Rasaad and Neera are already confirmed as continuing, and there's already a promise to improve the thief choice for Evil parties (although so far as I know there's no commitment about exact details of how they'll do so). On top of those, I guess we might reasonably expect one further new NPC, but beyond that might be expecting too much. (Developing new NPCs is an expensive business for devs!)
Personally I hope the other new-NPC slot is NOT taken by Baeloth. I'm running him in my current (Evil) party, and he's interesting, but hugely over-powered. At his end-of-BG1 level, he's already strong enough to compete for a place in a late-SoA party without further development - I reckon he could already solo the Underdark chapter, for example. And at the rate Baeloth is developing, he'll reduce all of the Bhaalspawn to an irrelevant sideshow before the end of ToB - Baeloth would just slaughter the lot of them (including Charname) in the blink of an eye and install himself as the new deity. There's a hint in the end-movie of the Black Pits that the story will continue, so I'm hoping that instead of Baeloth continuing as a joinable in BG2ee, he'll go his own way now that he's regained some strength, and will reappear during BG2ee as a powerful mid-game enemy operating some sort of successor "entertainment" scheme within the main story (and thereby linking the story arcs of BP and BG). After all, it's a well-established precedent from original BG that some BG1 joinables become BG2 enemies! As an example story-link, it might turn out that the exit-portal from the Black Pits doesn't link to the surface world, but instead links to the fighting-cages in the Ust'Natha Tavern ...
So if Baeloth doesn't continue a joinable, or if they make one or two more joinables than I expect, then sure, we could have both a Neutral X/T and an Evil T->X. I hope so.
The main issue, @Gallowglass, is that Good/Neutral parties have options, while Evil parties don't.
Yes, and I agree that Evil parties should get more choice. I'm debating about how to address that lack, in a way which is attractive to a lot of different players and relevant to a lot of different styles, without requiring an impracticable number of new NPCs (and without trashing the game with over-powered characters).
@shawne, @KidCarnival: I agreed from the start that the Evil choice ought to be expanded, it's just the specific emphasis on an Evil thief which I was questioning. You've helped explain the thinking behind this campaign, so thanks for that, but I remain unconvinced. Yes, Evil parties are forced to rely only on Jan for any sort of thieving capability, and that's an undesirable restriction ... but on the other hand, if a Good party wants a continuing thief who can develop, then they're also forced to rely on Jan.
True enough, though - as has been pointed out - Jan is much more compatible with Good parties. Even if that weren't the case, Imoen's thief levels after Spellhold are sufficient to pick any lock and disable any trap.
That's why I reckon it's a better idea to have either a new Neutral thief (or multiclass including thief) who can be used by either alignment, or (to expand the strictly-Evil options) an Evil human who has dualled-classed out of thief after gaining basic thief skills (corresponding to Imoen or Nalia for the Good guys). Or both, that'd be excellent!
Except that this ignores precisely the factor that makes evil playthroughs appealing in BG2: evil party members are meant to be the best in their respective classes, to make up for the fact that you'll be consistently awarded less XP and less gold for every evil RP decision you make. So if you're going to have a cleric, she'll have 50% magic resistance and 19 Dexterity. If you're going to have a mage, he'll be a Conjurer with a unique amulet that gives him even more spell slots. If you're going to have a fighter, he'll be a Berserker with 18/77 Strength and 19 Constitution, or a Blackguard with unique abilities. By the same token, if you're going to have a thief, she needs to be the best thief in the game because that's the only advantage the party has.
Agreed. However, Dorn, Rasaad and Neera are already confirmed as continuing, and there's already a promise to improve the thief choice for Evil parties (although so far as I know there's no commitment about exact details of how they'll do so). On top of those, I guess we might reasonably expect one further new NPC, but beyond that might be expecting too much. (Developing new NPCs is an expensive business for devs!)
I'm operating on the assumption that BG2:EE will add another three NPCs, for symmetry's sake if nothing else. In which case the addition of an evil thief doesn't constitute any kind of threat to other possible characters the devs may decide to add.
Personally I hope the other new-NPC slot is NOT taken by Baeloth. I'm running him in my current (Evil) party, and he's interesting, but hugely over-powered. At his end-of-BG1 level, he's already strong enough to compete for a place in a late-SoA party without further development - I reckon he could already solo the Underdark chapter, for example.
I think you may be giving him too much credit. I have Baeloth in my party as well, and I'm really enjoying him, but Sorcerers have one very important weakness: you can't configure their spells. And since you can only pick Baeloth up at level 5 or higher, most of his first/second-level spells have been chosen for you, and... well, some are useful, and some aren't. At best, you need another mage to offset his arsenal.
Regardless, there's been no confirmation one way or another whether Baeloth will be a party member in BG2:EE. Personally, I hope he is, because Mark Meer did a tremendous job with the voice acting and he's a very entertaining (ha!) character.
Yes, and I agree that Evil parties should get more choice. I'm debating about how to address that lack, in a way which is attractive to a lot of different players and relevant to a lot of different styles, without requiring an impracticable number of new NPCs.
I think you're overcomplicating this. We just need one (1) Thief of Evil alignment. Period. Full stop.
I don't think the lower skill points of thief kits are a problem in BG2, since you have so many levels to accumulate them.
Besides, there are rings to increase the main skills- pick locks and find traps, as well as the Amulet of the Master Harper, which gives bonuses to both.
I think Baeloth isn't as overpowered as stated above either. He could easily appear as he is in BG2, without his stats boosted like most other BG1 NPCs that reappear, as he is on the more powerful end of the spectrum. But so are Kagain and Coran. They are still not overpowered, just the best of their respective NPC type. I'd be happy to see him return as a recruitable NPC in BG2, this time with his own sidequest and banters (which would hopefully include a rivalry with Edwin, who hints as much in the dialogue when Baeloth appears).
As for the "new NPCs being attractive to a lot of different players", the solution seems easy. Neutral NPCs that have the option to change their alignment to good or evil, depending on their quests.
@Gallowglass No. We *NEED* an evil Thief NPC in BG2. Fullstop. And I fully agree with @Schneidend. No, we don't want another compromise or substitute or a half-assed Thief (looking at you Nalia). We don't want another neutral one (we have Jan).
Good parties have Imoen and she's pretty damn good at traps and locks. I know, I used her through Throne of Bhaal and barely used potions, to enhance her. Only used the special thief items. She can do stealth fine with the Staff of the Magi (it turns you invisible when you equip it, automatically).
So there you go, Imoen can do traps, locks and stealth on her own. Until you get her you have Yoshimo and/or Jan. The only thing she cannot do very well is pick-pocketing and I would suggest that Nalia's skills were reconfigured and fully focused on pick-pocketing so she will stop (slightly) being an Imoen clone or having her Thief side be a waste.
Evil parties have nothing. The closest thing is dualling Sarevok in ToB to one, to which I say "too late" and "blasphemy". We needed another evil warrior and we got Dorn. We needed another evil mage and we got Baeloth. Now we need an evil Thief and maybe an evil Priest-type. Priest of Talos would be awesome.
Nalia's skills being reconfigured to focus on pickpocketing doesn't strike me as in-character for her, since there's nobody she could justifiably rob since she's loaded. Of course, Nalia being a former thief at all doesn't strike me as in-character for her, either...
@Madhax Her class is not in-character at all. Her backstory says that she was *sneaking* out of her home to go help the homeless. Yet her stealth skills are abysmal and she focuses on Find Traps and Open Locks. That makes no sense.
Also, she's a mage. Yeah, she used all that gold to buy scrolls, instead. I would prefer if she was a Sorceress and had the Invisibility spell learned to justify the whole sneaking out thing. Also Sorcerers are supposed to have usually draconic blood in them and nobles are quite likely to have some faint draconic bloodline. Like a status symbol. Also, that would mean zero scrolls used on her if you planned to get Imoen, later.
With Pick-Pocket maxed, she's not overshadowed by Imoen in it, she can instead compliment her skills very nicely and character-wise, it can be justified that she was stealing food or gold from other nobles or the kitchen or whatever and giving it to the poor, Robin Hood style. Makes more sense than having 80 skillpoints in Find Traps, if I'm not mistaken.
Comments
(Sorry.)
Do we really need a second NPC thief for Evil parties? If there's some reason for that, then perhaps there's an equal need for a new Good thief (I mean a continuing thief, not someone who took a few levels and dualled to something else, thereby preventing further development as a thief). I assume the reason the original developers made Jan as a Neutral character was precisely so that both Good and Evil parties had a continuing thief who would work with them, on the basis that this saves the need to create two different thief characters to suit differently-aligned parties.
Or is it the case that those who like playing Evil are simply bored with having only one all-through-BG2 option for their thief needs, and want some variety? If so, then would you be satisfied (as Good parties have to be) with the alternative choice being an Evil counterpart of Imoen or Nalia, i.e. an NPC with modest thieving skills but already dualled into something else by the time we meet them? That'd provide better parity of choice between Good and Evil parties than an Evil-aligned pure thief, since there's no Good-aligned pure thief. Yet another Thief->Mage might not be exciting, but now that EE has addressed the shortage of good clubs (and since there were always a variety of good slings and staves), the Thief->Cleric build is no longer such a stupid idea, and Thief->Fighter has always been a viable option (albeit a pretty rare choice). How about a Thief(7)->Fighter(x) character, would that satisfy you? (Seven levels of thief is sufficient to take care of the trap-finding and lock-picking needs in BG2, as Good parties find by taking Imoen instead of Jan. If a Good party wants to do more advanced thief things, then it has to take Jan - same as an Evil party would.)
Personally I more often play Good, but not always: I'm currently running an Evil party in BGee (and I'm planning an Evil run for BG2ee when it arrives). My questions above are genuine, I'd like to understand why people are desperate for an(other) Evil thief.
I've gotta start an Evil play-through.
1. There's something to be said for compatibility in terms of personality rather than alignment - Faldorn and Jaheira are both nominally True Neutral, but they're very different people. Just because Jan is Neutral doesn't mean he fits in with a group that includes Edwin, Korgan and Viconia. (Yoshimo does, but... well. You know how that goes.)
2. This is a point that's been raised often in other threads, but the way Good/Evil RPs break down in the BG series is that Good parties get more rewards for choosing heroic actions (store discounts, more XP/gold, etc.) while Evil parties are comprised of the most powerful NPCs in the game (Edwin is the best mage, Korgan and Sarevok are the best fighters, Viconia is the best cleric). This is to offset the fact that Evil characters level up more slowly and have to work a lot harder to scrounge up gold for equipment. Taking that into account, there should be an evil thief who represents the "elite" of her class, if only to maintain that same balance.
3. BG:EE has twenty-nine NPCs - it's entirely possible to assemble a full and balanced party of any alignment. BG2, as it originally stands, has a much smaller pool of characters, and only three are actually Evil (compared to nine Good characters, which include two with thieving skills in Nalia and Imoen). Those three are a Fighter, a Conjurer and a Cleric - assuming your PC isn't a thief, it's going to be very difficult for you to get through the game without someone disabling traps and unlocking doors. Possible, yes, but difficult.
1. Hmm, well, I'm not so sure about that. Jan banters and argues quite a lot (and often in a pretty hostile way) with several of the Good NPCs, whereas he's relatively quiet with the Evil NPCs. It could well be said that he gets on better with the Evil crowd.
2. I agree about Edwin, Korgan and Sarevok being best-of-class. Viconia is an excellent pure cleric, but once Anomen becomes Sir Anomen (and gets a major stats-boost) he's not far behind as a cleric, and he's much better than her at both ranged and melee combat, so which of them is better is not so clear-cut ... but of course, fitting with the rest of your party usually decides that issue for you. The idea of needing to compensate for tougher levelling and tougher purchasing rather depends on play-style: when I play Evil, I tend to go for the smart-Evil approach, i.e. keeping a fairly high reputation (although for selfish motives rather than altruistic motives), which I reckon is certainly consistent with the character of Edwin (and to some extent Viconia and Sarevok), rather than just slaughtering everyone in sight (which would be what Korgan would like to do). That way the levelling and purchasing isn't much different from a Good party ... but yes, if you play just plain bloodthirsty, then it's much tougher progress. However, thief characters are generally supposed to be crafty and sneaky, more in keeping with the smart-Evil approach, not bloodthirsty maniacs like Korgan, so an Evil thief should still prefer the type of party which keeps up a moderate reputation and doesn't have too much trouble levelling and buying. So in that case, I reckon it might as well be Jan rather than a dedicated-Evil thief!
3. Agreed, but when (as usual) I'm playing Good, I don't have every single party member Good - I usually have a Neutral in there as well (often Jaheira) and sometimes another (maybe Jan or Haer'Dalis). Do other people habitually run parties which must all be of strictly one alignment? I agree there should be a little more choice on the Evil side, but even so I don't see why Evil parties shouldn't also include a Neutral or two, so I don't see a problem with using Jan to supply the thief skills.
Personally, what I reckon is currently most lacking on the Evil side of BG2:SoA is another choice of warrior to stand up front with Korgan, because there aren't many Neutral warriors to fill the gap. Of course this particular lack is now being addressed by the forthcoming inclusion of Dorn in BG2ee, but nevertheless a Neutral warrior of some sort would still be an excellent addition.
I suggest that a Lawful Neutral Dwarf Fighter/Thief would cover several under-represented aspects all in one character, and be more useful to more different styles of party than any other single addition I can envisage. I reckon this is more needed than an strictly-Evil thief, but if you must have the latter then I suggest that a Neutral Evil Human Thief(7)->Fighter (with thief skills in OpenLocks and FindTraps) would be a more rounded addition than a pureclass thief, or maybe a Lawful Evil Human Bountyhunter(11)->Fighter (with thief skills in OpenLocks and FindTraps and SetTraps) met a little later in the game.
To me, Jan Jansen is like Jaheira or Neera - neutral on paper, but a much better fit for good/neutral parties. He's quirky, but good-quirky. Tiax is evil-quirky. Quayle is more-evil-quirky than good-quirky, too.
Mixed alignment parties mean rep management, which is another reason why I like to avoid it. It is no fun to hear my entire party complain all day, and someone will be complaining if you try to satisfy all alignments at once.
There is also nothing preventing good or neutral parties from recruiting Montaron. It's not like evil NPCs are off limits for them. Many take Edwin or Viconia, or now Dorn, be it for their power, their personality/backstory or the novelty.
However, I don't see why one should come at the expense of the other. Presumably BG2:EE will have more than one new NPC.
Am I recalling correctly from back in the fall or summer that devs commented that the relationships with the PC started in BG:EE will become romances in BG2:EE?
More importantly: Both have the option to change alignment. If they do, Anomen still stays in the majority group, and still fits in good/neutral parties. Viconia leaves the minority of evil NPCs, reducing their ranks further. If Anomen falls, it merely changes his attitude, but not his breaking point (as neutral, he'll be fine with 20 rep) and that is the "fail quest" outcome. If you *succeed* with Viconia, she goes from evil-minority to neutral/good-majority and changes her attitude. Love *redeems* her to become a better person, which isn't really a win for an evil party, since she'll now complain/leave at a point where other evil NPCs won't. This would be a win for a good/neutral party that doesn't want her to leave at 18+ rep.
A neutral NPC who can be corrupted to evil would be a "win" situation for evil parties. The way Viconia's quest works, it's actually a quest for good/neutral parties want to "win" and evil wants to "lose". If I want an all evil party, I must fail with her quest (or not do it at all) to keep her in line with the rest of the NPCs. The reward for success shouldn't be to make an NPC less compatible with a group.
Thinking about it, I'd say that would be my wish for the new NPCs: That they start out neutral and come with personal quests that can either make them good or evil (or not be played, so they stay neutral). That should satisfy every alignment and the NPC only needs an interesting class.
Jan's one of my favorite NPCs, but he just doesn't fit my idea of Evil CHARNAME assembling the most talented crew of badasses they can acquire to shield them from all those assassination attempts (BG1) and raid a magical superfortress (BG2). Granted, Jan is clearly quite skilled, being a genius inventor, skilled burglar, and decent mage, but he lacks a certain professionalism and ruthlessness. I'm looking forward to an Evil Thief NPC to bring to the table the alignment, a kit, and a possible new romance.
@shawne
Totally agree that if there's a Neutral warrior it should be a Barbarian. My love of strong warrior chicks wants me to agree about the idea of a female Barbarian, but I think Overhaul needs to patch another grievous hole in BG2's hull: the poor ratio of romances for female CHARNAMEs. If they retain the three new characters per game momentum, I'd like to see a True Neutral male human Barbarian, a Neutral Evil female dwarf or half-orc Assassin, and a Lawful Neutral half-elf mage of some kind.
With Neera and Baeloth (assuming Baeloth can be recruited again in BG2), I think we're covered for new mage characters, but I'm really hoping the new evil thief won't be an Assassin or a Shadowdancer, because that would undermine the whole reason she's needed in the first place: those particular kits really slow down the development of thief skills (15 points per level instead of 25)...
Hm, good points all around. I think I had a complete brain fart and forgot Rasaad and Dorn were romanceable by the ladies. I still want a romanceable dwarf or half-orc lady, though!
I do certainly hope Baeloth does in fact make a return in BG2. I didn't know he was a hidden companion until just recently, but I love his characterization in The Black Pits and intend to re-roll my Blackguard to pick up Baeloth.
Actually, it's 2:1. Dorn is bisexual.
@KidCarnival: Baeloth is hilarious, Mark Meer is basically channeling Mark Hamill's Joker to spectacular effect. (The fact that he's an extraordinarily powerful Sorcerer is a bonus for Evil parties such as mine!)
That's why I reckon it's a better idea to have either a new Neutral thief (or multiclass including thief) who can be used by either alignment, or (to expand the strictly-Evil options) an Evil human who has dualled-classed out of thief after gaining basic thief skills (corresponding to Imoen or Nalia for the Good guys). Or both, that'd be excellent! Agreed. However, Dorn, Rasaad and Neera are already confirmed as continuing, and there's already a promise to improve the thief choice for Evil parties (although so far as I know there's no commitment about exact details of how they'll do so). On top of those, I guess we might reasonably expect one further new NPC, but beyond that might be expecting too much. (Developing new NPCs is an expensive business for devs!)
Personally I hope the other new-NPC slot is NOT taken by Baeloth. I'm running him in my current (Evil) party, and he's interesting, but hugely over-powered. At his end-of-BG1 level, he's already strong enough to compete for a place in a late-SoA party without further development - I reckon he could already solo the Underdark chapter, for example. And at the rate Baeloth is developing, he'll reduce all of the Bhaalspawn to an irrelevant sideshow before the end of ToB - Baeloth would just slaughter the lot of them (including Charname) in the blink of an eye and install himself as the new deity. There's a hint in the end-movie of the Black Pits that the story will continue, so I'm hoping that instead of Baeloth continuing as a joinable in BG2ee, he'll go his own way now that he's regained some strength, and will reappear during BG2ee as a powerful mid-game enemy operating some sort of successor "entertainment" scheme within the main story (and thereby linking the story arcs of BP and BG). After all, it's a well-established precedent from original BG that some BG1 joinables become BG2 enemies! As an example story-link, it might turn out that the exit-portal from the Black Pits doesn't link to the surface world, but instead links to the fighting-cages in the Ust'Natha Tavern ...
So if Baeloth doesn't continue a joinable, or if they make one or two more joinables than I expect, then sure, we could have both a Neutral X/T and an Evil T->X. I hope so.
Regardless, there's been no confirmation one way or another whether Baeloth will be a party member in BG2:EE. Personally, I hope he is, because Mark Meer did a tremendous job with the voice acting and he's a very entertaining (ha!) character.
Besides, there are rings to increase the main skills- pick locks and find traps, as well as the Amulet of the Master Harper, which gives bonuses to both.
I'd be happy to see him return as a recruitable NPC in BG2, this time with his own sidequest and banters (which would hopefully include a rivalry with Edwin, who hints as much in the dialogue when Baeloth appears).
As for the "new NPCs being attractive to a lot of different players", the solution seems easy. Neutral NPCs that have the option to change their alignment to good or evil, depending on their quests.
No. We *NEED* an evil Thief NPC in BG2. Fullstop. And I fully agree with @Schneidend.
No, we don't want another compromise or substitute or a half-assed Thief (looking at you Nalia). We don't want another neutral one (we have Jan).
Good parties have Imoen and she's pretty damn good at traps and locks. I know, I used her through Throne of Bhaal and barely used potions, to enhance her. Only used the special thief items.
She can do stealth fine with the Staff of the Magi (it turns you invisible when you equip it, automatically).
So there you go, Imoen can do traps, locks and stealth on her own. Until you get her you have Yoshimo and/or Jan.
The only thing she cannot do very well is pick-pocketing and I would suggest that Nalia's skills were reconfigured and fully focused on pick-pocketing so she will stop (slightly) being an Imoen clone or having her Thief side be a waste.
Evil parties have nothing. The closest thing is dualling Sarevok in ToB to one, to which I say "too late" and "blasphemy".
We needed another evil warrior and we got Dorn. We needed another evil mage and we got Baeloth. Now we need an evil Thief and maybe an evil Priest-type. Priest of Talos would be awesome.
Nalia's skills being reconfigured to focus on pickpocketing doesn't strike me as in-character for her, since there's nobody she could justifiably rob since she's loaded. Of course, Nalia being a former thief at all doesn't strike me as in-character for her, either...
Her class is not in-character at all.
Her backstory says that she was *sneaking* out of her home to go help the homeless.
Yet her stealth skills are abysmal and she focuses on Find Traps and Open Locks. That makes no sense.
Also, she's a mage. Yeah, she used all that gold to buy scrolls, instead.
I would prefer if she was a Sorceress and had the Invisibility spell learned to justify the whole sneaking out thing.
Also Sorcerers are supposed to have usually draconic blood in them and nobles are quite likely to have some faint draconic bloodline. Like a status symbol.
Also, that would mean zero scrolls used on her if you planned to get Imoen, later.
With Pick-Pocket maxed, she's not overshadowed by Imoen in it, she can instead compliment her skills very nicely and character-wise, it can be justified that she was stealing food or gold from other nobles or the kitchen or whatever and giving it to the poor, Robin Hood style.
Makes more sense than having 80 skillpoints in Find Traps, if I'm not mistaken.