Nalia's skills being reconfigured to focus on pickpocketing doesn't strike me as in-character for her, since there's nobody she could justifiably rob since she's loaded. Of course, Nalia being a former thief at all doesn't strike me as in-character for her, either...
She would pick-pocket small change from Daddy to give to the peasants.
She would pick-pocket the guard to get the keys to the back gate.
Her FAMILY was loaded, but she didn't control the treasury until Daddy got troll'd.
@Nifft Well said. Even one of those is far more fitting than her having 80 points in Find Traps. What, was she disarming the traps in her own house and treasury to kill her time?
Either having her Pick-Pocket skill maxed (or at least 100) or me changing her to a Sorceress. Otherwise the only thing I can do when I look at her is roll my eyes and say "Imoen-clone".
Faster advancement, since you get her earlier, doesn't cut it for me.
That's possible, but it still feels like a stretch to me. Nalia's interpersonal skills are terrible, and she lives in a massive keep with all sort of available riches. I can't see her feeling the need to steal gold off of her family's person if she could just pop the lock off a chest or sneak into a treasury room. I'd expect her to focus much more either on stealth or open locks.
@Madhax That can be fixed with the Invisibility spell and Knock to open the doors/gates/chest, to sneak out.
There's no excuse for having high Find Traps skill, except for the metagaming reason that it's the most important skill in the game and it can kill you if you neglect it in a dungeon.
That's possible, but it still feels like a stretch to me. Nalia's interpersonal skills are terrible, and she lives in a massive keep with all sort of available riches. I can't see her feeling the need to steal gold off of her family's person if she could just pop the lock off a chest or sneak into a treasury room. I'd expect her to focus much more either on stealth or open locks.
Yes, that's certainly also plausible... though as a Mage she'd have access to Invisibility and Knock spells, and she could always pick-pocket keys to things instead of picking the lock. (Ninja'd by @Archaos.)
Now the question becomes: which makes her a more interesting NPC choice?
IMHO, making her very different from Imoen makes her more interesting than having her repeat some of Imoen's skill choices.
(It could be argued that giving her Pick Pocket would mean that she's a bad choice for a party with a Bard, and that's valid, though the only NPC Bard is a Blade with poor Pick Pocket potential.)
@Nifft I ninja'd you. Right now, there's no reason to have both Imoen and Nalia in your party. In my previous playthrough, I had Aerie and Imoen instead since Aerie is also a very competent Cleric and she can be romanced.
Also Haer'Dalis is a Blade, which means worse Pick-Pocket skills as you said and he's also Chaotic Neutral. Nalia would be a much more natural fit in a Good party.
These are precisely the sort of emphatic and feebly-supported assertions which caused me to ask "why?" and start the current debate! We seem to be going full circle here.
Who is this "we", @Schneidend, @Archaos? Do you mean "players who only ever play maximum-Evil and don't give a stuff about what any other player might find attractive or useful in the game"? If so, I see where you're coming from but I have little sympathy, you're a small minority trying to be the tail that wags the dog. If that's not what you mean by "we", then I haven't a clue who you mean.
No, @Archaos, you clearly do not "need" an Evil thief: obviously you can use Jan if you have to, and as you presumably have been doing in the past. I can understand if you're bored with him or don't like him much, in fact me too, but fancying a change is not a "need". I fancy a change of thief too, but there are also other beneficial possibilities and we're going to get only a very limited number of new NPCs, so it seems to me pretty unreasonable for you to "demand" that the devs dedicate one whole NPC just to satisfying one small category of player with an NPC which would probably be pretty useless to the majority of players in most of their games. With a little more flexibility, the devs could offer a couple of NPCs which fill a variety of different gaps - not perfectly what you want, not perfectly what anyone else wants, but a noticeable enhancement for nearly all of us.
Good parties have Imoen and she's pretty damn good at traps and locks.
She's okay with the right equipment, yes, but those are only the basic thief skills, you don't remotely "need" a dedicated thief for that. Just someone with a few levels of thief. (Jan can do much, much more as a thief once you develop his other skills.) So why wouldn't you be satisfied with one of the suggestions I offered earlier: an Evil NPC with several levels of thief (as many as Imoen or slightly more), but dualled before recruitment into another class so that some other player with a different plan can also get some value out of the character?
... this ignores precisely the factor that makes evil playthroughs appealing in BG2: evil party members are meant to be the best in their respective classes, to make up for the fact that you'll be consistently awarded less XP and less gold for every evil RP decision you make ... if you're going to have a thief, she needs to be the best thief in the game because that's the only advantage the party has.
But @shawne ... in BG2 as it currently stands, Evil parties can already use the best-in-class thief: Jan! (As the only thief who can develop to higher levels, he necessarily has to be best-in-class.) The only difference is that, unlike the dedicated-Evil characters, he can also work with Good parties. Is what you're actually saying that you specifically want a thief who will be denied to Good parties?
I have Baeloth in my party as well, and I'm really enjoying him, but Sorcerers have one very important weakness: you can't configure their spells. And since you can only pick Baeloth up at level 5 or higher, most of his first/second-level spells have been chosen for you, and... well, some are useful, and some aren't. At best, you need another mage to offset his arsenal.
But Baeloth has those extra spells which normal sorcerers don't get, so the weakness is less severe, and his pre-selection of spells at the time you meet him is actually fairly useful, only a couple of really duff choices in the lot. In my current party, I'm not even taking another full mage, just a bard to plug the gaps, and even he rarely needs to cast so far. (But I haven't finished yet, so I suppose that might change.)
@Gallowglass Why do we need an evil Thief? Because we lack one and you can't make an "evil party" playthrough with two forced Neutrals. It's not the same, it's an unwanted but necessary compromise.
By that logic, every companion should be something-neutral so they can fit in every party combination.
Another reason why we need an evil Thief NPC is because of the banter. Montaron was hilarious, especially with the NPC Project mod. Neutrals are well... more neutral about it. They're more "whatever, I don't mind" than "we're evil badasses" like Korgan or Dorn or Sarevok or Edwin or Viconia are.
And yes, I "need" one. Otherwise I can't make a proper "evil" playthrough. I'm making a compromised and 4/6 evil playthrough since I lack the proper companions for it.
And by "we" I mean everyone that agrees with me that BG2 needed and needs one since BG2 came out. BG1 had two (Montaron and Tiax), three if you dualled Shar-Teel. BG2 had none. Sarevok doesn't really count since you find him in ToB.
Oh? Should we instead make *another* half-assed Thief like Nalia and to a lesser extend Imoen that can't advance their thieving skills? No thanks. What would be perfect? An evil Cleric/Thief of Mask perhaps and you hit two birds with one stone, covering the Thief and second evil Priest NPC. Or a Fighter/Thief or Assassin.
And it's also called variety. Good ones have Imoen and maybe Nalia. Neutrals have Jan and Yoshimo for a bit. Evil ones have nothing at all.
A Dualled or another Neutral one is uneeded and would be overshadowed by Jan. A multi or single evil one would fill the gap. Simple as that.
Why would anyone pick a neutral or dualled Neutral Thief when you have the best one, Jan, as you said? With my suggestion, you do have a reason to take them, except the banter and personality.
Something else, Dorn, Korgan, Edwin and Viconia are already denied to Good parties. So I'm not sure how's that relevant.
By the way, we're almost certaintly getting an evil Thief type, whether you like it or not, since Trent admitted it himself that BG2 lacked one.
Once, in order to try to do a "full clear" run of BG2, I installed a happy party mod. Kept evils from leaving when my rep got too high, and kept my party members from killing each other.
Great decision. I never looked back. Managing reputation is tedious and terrible, and being able to safely adventure with mixed alignment parties meant I got to experience lots of dialogues that I'd never heard before (when I limited myself to like-minded allies).
So the long and the short of it is that I don't care whether the new thief is evil or neutral. I just want the new thief to be very thief-like, and if I have to mod my game to keep her in my party, I'm fine with that.
But I do care about the characterization. I'd really like a thief that behaves like a thief.
@Rhyme I think the issue here is the roleplay aspect, not working within the mechanical boundaries of the game. All but the most psychotic and evil PCs can keep Jan Jansen from quitting the party, but that's not the point. Jan's personality doesn't mesh with the idea of a brutally efficient core of evil party members, as has been pointed out in this thread.
@Rhyme: If you care about characterization, why take it away from your NPCs? As much as I dislike rep management and the rep system, NPCs having a breaking point and the ability to disagree with your choices is part of their character. It's out of character for any of the evil NPCs to be happy about your heroic, altruistic ways and it's equally out of character for the good NPCs to not say a word about your killing spree. I already find it out of character that neutral NPCs will remain happy if you lean toward one side too much. Especially the druids stand for "balance between good and evil", not for "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".
I also belong to "we" who "need" an evil thief. In 90 % of my BG2 runs, I played as thief or multiplayered to have an evil thief. Yoshimo is the only one who fits somewhat into an evil party, and we all know he's not going to stay around. Yes, neutral NPCs would - with the rep system as it is - be the solution to make "most" players happy. But a game should not offer 3 alignments and neglect one by not offering a complete party.
Other than that: Nalia as a sorcerer with Invisibility and Knock to fit her backstory would be a great solution, to set her apart from Imoen.
But @shawne ... in BG2 as it currently stands, Evil parties can already use the best-in-class thief: Jan! (As the only thief who can develop to higher levels, he necessarily has to be best-in-class.) The only difference is that, unlike the dedicated-Evil characters, he can also work with Good parties. Is what you're actually saying that you specifically want a thief who will be denied to Good parties?
Honestly? I think that at this point you're just quibbling. The whole point of the EE NPCs is to address existing gaps in the character pool: there were no Wild Mages before Neera, no Monks before Rasaad, and no half-orcs before Dorn. By the same token, there are no evil thieves in BG2, hence Trent Oster's and Nathan Willis' comments that BG2:EE needs an evil single-class thief.
Also, I find it interesting that you view this thief as being "denied" to Good parties (as if Good PCs can't recruit Dorn) yet you keep insisting that Jan is perfectly suited for an evil playthrough. Are incompatible alignments only an issue for Good RPs, then?
4. Afaik there is no Swashbuckler either and our dear Bounty Hunter dies pretty early on too, so either kit could be used. The whole point of having a single class thief is to get to use more of their skills than just Open Locks and Find Traps. ...being forced to distribute a measly 15 points/level sort of defeats the purpose. For an Assassin, without enhancing gear at about level 10 you're only close to top at Hide and Move Silently... that's if you don't spread the points around because you want your assassin to actually assassinate people Maybe by the end of ToB you can open all locks, disable all traps and set your own. And the very useful and often overlooked detect illusions skill will have to be forgotten again. I can see how some people like the backstab strategy and if they do end up making an evil assassin then I might check out their quest but still make a PC thief for my evil party. Anyone can kill but I need overall utility in my thief. I hope they make a generic thief or maybe a Shadow Thief kit.
3. "There is no female half-orc, gnome, dwarf, or companion" <-- This I agree with. We definitely need more variety. And I would totally go for a duergar lady like Magda (Black Pits). She's hilarious.
I'll agree that a vanilla Thief would be more useful in general, but I think you're overstating the strain on points, here. Hide and Move Silently don't need to be maxed, especially with all the gear in BG2 that boosts them. I also usually skip Set Traps, so that helps. Find Traps and Pick Locks hardly need to be maxed, either, with all those tasty potions that last six hours available.
I, too, would like a duergar lass. My preference would definitely be human, dwarf/duergar, or half-orc gals for the Evil Thief NPC. A duergar would have some interesting banter potential with Korgan and Viconia.
Magda is also my choice for evil thief. Her voice performance is excellent, and she ticks the boxes (LE, female, dwarves get a race bonus to find traps). He experience in the Black Pits could give her a reason for joining the party (she hates Baeloth, obviously).
As for kits, the on essential ability is find traps. After that, it's baically a case of how much DPS can they contribute? Fighter/Thief does best, but would appear to be ruled out. Swashbucklers suck, and don't really fit Magda. Shadowdancer also sucks big time for trap removal and DPS. Assassin is ok, if you equip them with some kind of invisibility item or inate ability so they don't need to put anything into stealth skills.
When I used Shar-Teel in BG1 as my thief I didn't put any points into stealth. I relied on invisibility spells and potions and she still destroyed everything.
@Schneidend I was doing some research on the dwarven deities and an evil (female, though not necessary) dwarven/duergar Cleric/Thief of Abbathor or Deep Duerra that is also romanceable, would be really nice.
Something similar to Dorna from NwN1 Shadows of Undrentide expansion. (Female dwarven cleric/rogue) would be quite fun.
He/She could be actually met in Irenicus' dungeon since you meet a ton of duergar there and you wouldn't be forced to keep Imoen or Yoshimo for the traps or the early game.
Or maybe he/she would know Baeloth? Food for thought.
@Rhyme: If you care about characterization, why take it away from your NPCs? As much as I dislike rep management and the rep system, NPCs having a breaking point and the ability to disagree with your choices is part of their character. It's out of character for any of the evil NPCs to be happy about your heroic, altruistic ways and it's equally out of character for the good NPCs to not say a word about your killing spree. I already find it out of character that neutral NPCs will remain happy if you lean toward one side too much. Especially the druids stand for "balance between good and evil", not for "frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn".
I also belong to "we" who "need" an evil thief. In 90 % of my BG2 runs, I played as thief or multiplayered to have an evil thief. Yoshimo is the only one who fits somewhat into an evil party, and we all know he's not going to stay around. Yes, neutral NPCs would - with the rep system as it is - be the solution to make "most" players happy. But a game should not offer 3 alignments and neglect one by not offering a complete party.
Other than that: Nalia as a sorcerer with Invisibility and Knock to fit her backstory would be a great solution, to set her apart from Imoen.
This ties into the "stupid evil" debates that have been going around. I didn't feel like disabling the reputation breaking points neutered their characters at all, for a few reasons.
In BG1, the lack of dialogues mean that all the NPCs have very limited character. One of the only times you hear anything from them is when your reputation goes up or down. So in BG1, you could argue that reputation is important to character. BG2 doesn't have this problem. You get lots of banters. You get personal quests (and on that first playthrough I did with the happy party mod, I was swapping party members left and right so that I could constantly be doing personal quests) that fit with the NPCs character. And when you have mixed alignment parties (a rarity), you experience dialogues where they argue with each other. The dialogues between Korgan/Aerie and Korgan/Mazzy are particularly good; not a lot of people experience them because parties tend to be either good/neutral or evil/neutral. They don't get to experience NPCs having the ability to disagree with your choices (or fight with your other NPCs) because they know that those disagreements will eventually lead to the NPCs walking away.
When you experience the depth of character that the NPCs in BG2 have, then suddenly the reputation system strikes you as arbitrary and ridiculous, wherein all good people like reputation going up (even if they're a lawful good Paladin and you've done an illegal Chaotic Good deed), and all evil people like reputation going down ("Yay! We just killed a baby! I love this party, and am not at all concerned about the mental state of our baby-slaughtering leader!").
Honestly, there's so much to do in BG2 that the only character whose characterization suffered at all with the happy party mod was CHARNAME him/herself. And even then, I felt like it was minor.
Try it for yourself some time. Really. It was a great experience.
@Rhyme Wasn't Sarevok amazingly popular anyway? The guy was about to become a freaking duke. It doesn't make much sense for evil to leave with or dislike high reputation.
"What? They think we are the good guys, get better rewards and discounts and we are not hunted? Ye goody-goodies make me sick!"
Though I understand that this was implemented so that there's variety in playstyles. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to it.
I would prefer that "Virtue" mod instead. It keeps morality and reputation seperated.
Sure evil NPCs like being popular, but I think they would like to be popular *for* their evil deeds (or replace "popular" with "feared/respected"). Hiding their deeds is counterproductive for this goal. Sarevok is obviously an example for someone who uses deception and likes to do his evil in the shadows, but I can't see Korgan thinking like that. "Oh, awesome, all these people think I'm a lovely guy who protects widows and orpheans, when I secretly steal their gold!" That's not Korgan; Korgan would want to be known as the most ruthless, bloodthirsty killer in history. Or in BG1, Tiax would actively try to cover up his deity's message by posing as a good healer. The "evil wants to be popular/liked" only works for some characters (Sarevok, Eldoth, possibly Baeloth), but others want to prove that their ways are superior and not cover their deeds under layers of percieved "good" deeds (Tiax, Korgan, Dorn). I also never had a problem to keep mixed parties together long enough to do their quests. In BG2, mixed parties are no rarity at all, since evil must mix. If you intentionally put together NPCs you know will not get along, it might be a problem, but not if you naturally progress through the story.
Not all thieves have maxed dex, so I don't really see that as a problem. She could also have some personal item that gives + dex or just boost her thief skills or something. Wouldn't be the first NPC doing that.
Korgan saw plenty of bloodshed in my party. He was very happy. There were times when he wanted to kill something, and I, as party leader, didn't let him, sure. But that's true of Minsc and Anomen, too. I even have a sword that I occasionally have to tell to simmer down. No biggie.
Edwin found his book, experienced his feminine side, and made a ton of cash money in the process. Plus he got to run around with a super powerful sorceror playing "Who's the better spell caster". So he was happy enough. His biggest objection to the high reputation was actually just the recognition that came with it. He was trying to keep a low profile when I found him.
Viconia got wooed and converted (I also had the multiple romance mod going. I really was trying to complete the absolute most I possibly could), so obviously SHE's very happy.
@Schneidend I was doing some research on the dwarven deities and an evil (female, though not necessary) dwarven/duergar Cleric/Thief of Abbathor or Deep Duerra that is also romanceable, would be really nice.
Something similar to Dorna from NwN1 Shadows of Undrentide expansion. (Female dwarven cleric/rogue) would be quite fun.
He/She could be actually met in Irenicus' dungeon since you meet a ton of duergar there and you wouldn't be forced to keep Imoen or Yoshimo for the traps or the early game.
Or maybe he/she would know Baeloth? Food for thought.
I like everything you just said. Abbathor is my favorite deity for evil dwarves. His tenets aren't earth-shakingly ambitious. Just go get gold and gems! I also loved Dorna, whom I blame for my attraction to female dwarves. I was so disappointed to find out SOU had no romances, because I had bought NWN not long after finishing my first BG2 run.
@Shawne Also true. She could still worship Abbathor or Deep Duerra and be a pure Thief. A Cleric multi-class would be unable to use daggers and short swords, the two weapon types I almost never manage to find any use for.
@Shawne We don't *need* another evil cleric but it's about variety.
Good parties have two Clerics: Aerie and Sir Anomen. (Though, I believe Jaheira is closer to Neutral Good) Neutral parties have two druids: Jaheira and Cernd and one Cleric: default Anomen. Evil parties have only Viconia.
It's not necessary, but it's nice to have. For example Sir Anomen is more of a warpriest while Aerie and Viconia are more full casters. Likewise, a more combat-oriented (STR and CON) or multiclass Cleric/Thief would fill that gap, though that is not that necessary.
It would be fun if they made a Shadow Druid or Blighter (Neutral Evil) NPC, instead of a Cleric. The Blighter is basically a fallen/corrupted Druid, similarly to what a Blackguard is to a Paladin.
@Schneidend By the way, just did a test and you can't make a dwarven cleric/thief. You can make a single-class Thief or single-class Cleric, but you cannot make a multiclass one, because... screw logic.
Though, they can certainly make an illegal one like Aerie or Dorn but then you have a character that needs STR, DEX, CON and WIS and Dwarves get -1 to Dexterity. Not sure about Duergar in ADnD. Part of the reason Tiax kinda sucked, gameplay-wise.
Though with a Duergar (Fighter)/Thief, you're all set and kicking ass.
Rasaad, Dorn, and Neera will all be returning in Baldur's Gate 2: Enhanced Edition. They'll have quests that span SoA to ToB, and will interact with the other existing NPCs. As I mentioned on Twitter, there is one more NPC to be announced.
Baeloth will not be returning as a party member. He's busy with other stuff during that time period.
Comments
She would pick-pocket the guard to get the keys to the back gate.
Her FAMILY was loaded, but she didn't control the treasury until Daddy got troll'd.
Well said. Even one of those is far more fitting than her having 80 points in Find Traps.
What, was she disarming the traps in her own house and treasury to kill her time?
Either having her Pick-Pocket skill maxed (or at least 100) or me changing her to a Sorceress. Otherwise the only thing I can do when I look at her is roll my eyes and say "Imoen-clone".
Faster advancement, since you get her earlier, doesn't cut it for me.
That's possible, but it still feels like a stretch to me. Nalia's interpersonal skills are terrible, and she lives in a massive keep with all sort of available riches. I can't see her feeling the need to steal gold off of her family's person if she could just pop the lock off a chest or sneak into a treasury room. I'd expect her to focus much more either on stealth or open locks.
That can be fixed with the Invisibility spell and Knock to open the doors/gates/chest, to sneak out.
There's no excuse for having high Find Traps skill, except for the metagaming reason that it's the most important skill in the game and it can kill you if you neglect it in a dungeon.
Now the question becomes: which makes her a more interesting NPC choice?
IMHO, making her very different from Imoen makes her more interesting than having her repeat some of Imoen's skill choices.
(It could be argued that giving her Pick Pocket would mean that she's a bad choice for a party with a Bard, and that's valid, though the only NPC Bard is a Blade with poor Pick Pocket potential.)
I ninja'd you.
Right now, there's no reason to have both Imoen and Nalia in your party.
In my previous playthrough, I had Aerie and Imoen instead since Aerie is also a very competent Cleric and she can be romanced.
Also Haer'Dalis is a Blade, which means worse Pick-Pocket skills as you said and he's also Chaotic Neutral.
Nalia would be a much more natural fit in a Good party.
Who is this "we", @Schneidend, @Archaos? Do you mean "players who only ever play maximum-Evil and don't give a stuff about what any other player might find attractive or useful in the game"? If so, I see where you're coming from but I have little sympathy, you're a small minority trying to be the tail that wags the dog. If that's not what you mean by "we", then I haven't a clue who you mean.
No, @Archaos, you clearly do not "need" an Evil thief: obviously you can use Jan if you have to, and as you presumably have been doing in the past. I can understand if you're bored with him or don't like him much, in fact me too, but fancying a change is not a "need". I fancy a change of thief too, but there are also other beneficial possibilities and we're going to get only a very limited number of new NPCs, so it seems to me pretty unreasonable for you to "demand" that the devs dedicate one whole NPC just to satisfying one small category of player with an NPC which would probably be pretty useless to the majority of players in most of their games. With a little more flexibility, the devs could offer a couple of NPCs which fill a variety of different gaps - not perfectly what you want, not perfectly what anyone else wants, but a noticeable enhancement for nearly all of us. She's okay with the right equipment, yes, but those are only the basic thief skills, you don't remotely "need" a dedicated thief for that. Just someone with a few levels of thief. (Jan can do much, much more as a thief once you develop his other skills.) So why wouldn't you be satisfied with one of the suggestions I offered earlier: an Evil NPC with several levels of thief (as many as Imoen or slightly more), but dualled before recruitment into another class so that some other player with a different plan can also get some value out of the character? But @shawne ... in BG2 as it currently stands, Evil parties can already use the best-in-class thief: Jan! (As the only thief who can develop to higher levels, he necessarily has to be best-in-class.) The only difference is that, unlike the dedicated-Evil characters, he can also work with Good parties. Is what you're actually saying that you specifically want a thief who will be denied to Good parties? But Baeloth has those extra spells which normal sorcerers don't get, so the weakness is less severe, and his pre-selection of spells at the time you meet him is actually fairly useful, only a couple of really duff choices in the lot. In my current party, I'm not even taking another full mage, just a bard to plug the gaps, and even he rarely needs to cast so far. (But I haven't finished yet, so I suppose that might change.)
Why do we need an evil Thief? Because we lack one and you can't make an "evil party" playthrough with two forced Neutrals. It's not the same, it's an unwanted but necessary compromise.
By that logic, every companion should be something-neutral so they can fit in every party combination.
Another reason why we need an evil Thief NPC is because of the banter. Montaron was hilarious, especially with the NPC Project mod.
Neutrals are well... more neutral about it. They're more "whatever, I don't mind" than "we're evil badasses" like Korgan or Dorn or Sarevok or Edwin or Viconia are.
And yes, I "need" one. Otherwise I can't make a proper "evil" playthrough. I'm making a compromised and 4/6 evil playthrough since I lack the proper companions for it.
And by "we" I mean everyone that agrees with me that BG2 needed and needs one since BG2 came out.
BG1 had two (Montaron and Tiax), three if you dualled Shar-Teel. BG2 had none. Sarevok doesn't really count since you find him in ToB.
Oh? Should we instead make *another* half-assed Thief like Nalia and to a lesser extend Imoen that can't advance their thieving skills? No thanks.
What would be perfect? An evil Cleric/Thief of Mask perhaps and you hit two birds with one stone, covering the Thief and second evil Priest NPC. Or a Fighter/Thief or Assassin.
And it's also called variety.
Good ones have Imoen and maybe Nalia.
Neutrals have Jan and Yoshimo for a bit.
Evil ones have nothing at all.
A Dualled or another Neutral one is uneeded and would be overshadowed by Jan.
A multi or single evil one would fill the gap. Simple as that.
Why would anyone pick a neutral or dualled Neutral Thief when you have the best one, Jan, as you said?
With my suggestion, you do have a reason to take them, except the banter and personality.
Something else, Dorn, Korgan, Edwin and Viconia are already denied to Good parties. So I'm not sure how's that relevant.
By the way, we're almost certaintly getting an evil Thief type, whether you like it or not, since Trent admitted it himself that BG2 lacked one.
Great decision. I never looked back. Managing reputation is tedious and terrible, and being able to safely adventure with mixed alignment parties meant I got to experience lots of dialogues that I'd never heard before (when I limited myself to like-minded allies).
So the long and the short of it is that I don't care whether the new thief is evil or neutral. I just want the new thief to be very thief-like, and if I have to mod my game to keep her in my party, I'm fine with that.
But I do care about the characterization. I'd really like a thief that behaves like a thief.
I think the issue here is the roleplay aspect, not working within the mechanical boundaries of the game. All but the most psychotic and evil PCs can keep Jan Jansen from quitting the party, but that's not the point. Jan's personality doesn't mesh with the idea of a brutally efficient core of evil party members, as has been pointed out in this thread.
I also belong to "we" who "need" an evil thief. In 90 % of my BG2 runs, I played as thief or multiplayered to have an evil thief. Yoshimo is the only one who fits somewhat into an evil party, and we all know he's not going to stay around. Yes, neutral NPCs would - with the rep system as it is - be the solution to make "most" players happy. But a game should not offer 3 alignments and neglect one by not offering a complete party.
Other than that: Nalia as a sorcerer with Invisibility and Knock to fit her backstory would be a great solution, to set her apart from Imoen.
1. Again, there is no Thief of Evil alignment. People who want an all-Evil party will use an Evil Thief.
2. There is no pure Thief companion of any alignment. People who want a pure Thief companion will likely use the Evil Thief.
3. There is no female half-orc, gnome, dwarf, or companion. An Evil Thief also presents an opportunity to create any of those.
4. There is no companion of the Assassin kit. The Evil Thief could use the Assassin kit.
5. There is no NPC of the Lawful Evil alignment. A Non-Assassin Evil Thief could be Lawful Evil.
Also, I find it interesting that you view this thief as being "denied" to Good parties (as if Good PCs can't recruit Dorn) yet you keep insisting that Jan is perfectly suited for an evil playthrough. Are incompatible alignments only an issue for Good RPs, then?
5. Edwin is Lawful Evil.
4. Afaik there is no Swashbuckler either and our dear Bounty Hunter dies pretty early on too, so either kit could be used. The whole point of having a single class thief is to get to use more of their skills than just Open Locks and Find Traps. ...being forced to distribute a measly 15 points/level sort of defeats the purpose.
For an Assassin, without enhancing gear at about level 10 you're only close to top at Hide and Move Silently... that's if you don't spread the points around because you want your assassin to actually assassinate people
I can see how some people like the backstab strategy and if they do end up making an evil assassin then I might check out their quest but still make a PC thief for my evil party. Anyone can kill but I need overall utility in my thief.
I hope they make a generic thief or maybe a Shadow Thief kit.
3. "There is no female half-orc, gnome, dwarf, or companion" <-- This I agree with. We definitely need more variety. And I would totally go for a duergar lady like Magda (Black Pits). She's hilarious.
I could have sworn Edwin was Chaotic Evil. Hrm.
I'll agree that a vanilla Thief would be more useful in general, but I think you're overstating the strain on points, here. Hide and Move Silently don't need to be maxed, especially with all the gear in BG2 that boosts them. I also usually skip Set Traps, so that helps. Find Traps and Pick Locks hardly need to be maxed, either, with all those tasty potions that last six hours available.
I, too, would like a duergar lass. My preference would definitely be human, dwarf/duergar, or half-orc gals for the Evil Thief NPC. A duergar would have some interesting banter potential with Korgan and Viconia.
As for kits, the on essential ability is find traps. After that, it's baically a case of how much DPS can they contribute? Fighter/Thief does best, but would appear to be ruled out. Swashbucklers suck, and don't really fit Magda. Shadowdancer also sucks big time for trap removal and DPS. Assassin is ok, if you equip them with some kind of invisibility item or inate ability so they don't need to put anything into stealth skills.
I was doing some research on the dwarven deities and an evil (female, though not necessary) dwarven/duergar Cleric/Thief of Abbathor or Deep Duerra that is also romanceable, would be really nice.
Something similar to Dorna from NwN1 Shadows of Undrentide expansion. (Female dwarven cleric/rogue) would be quite fun.
He/She could be actually met in Irenicus' dungeon since you meet a ton of duergar there and you wouldn't be forced to keep Imoen or Yoshimo for the traps or the early game.
Or maybe he/she would know Baeloth? Food for thought.
In BG1, the lack of dialogues mean that all the NPCs have very limited character. One of the only times you hear anything from them is when your reputation goes up or down. So in BG1, you could argue that reputation is important to character. BG2 doesn't have this problem. You get lots of banters. You get personal quests (and on that first playthrough I did with the happy party mod, I was swapping party members left and right so that I could constantly be doing personal quests) that fit with the NPCs character. And when you have mixed alignment parties (a rarity), you experience dialogues where they argue with each other. The dialogues between Korgan/Aerie and Korgan/Mazzy are particularly good; not a lot of people experience them because parties tend to be either good/neutral or evil/neutral. They don't get to experience NPCs having the ability to disagree with your choices (or fight with your other NPCs) because they know that those disagreements will eventually lead to the NPCs walking away.
When you experience the depth of character that the NPCs in BG2 have, then suddenly the reputation system strikes you as arbitrary and ridiculous, wherein all good people like reputation going up (even if they're a lawful good Paladin and you've done an illegal Chaotic Good deed), and all evil people like reputation going down ("Yay! We just killed a baby! I love this party, and am not at all concerned about the mental state of our baby-slaughtering leader!").
Honestly, there's so much to do in BG2 that the only character whose characterization suffered at all with the happy party mod was CHARNAME him/herself. And even then, I felt like it was minor.
Try it for yourself some time. Really. It was a great experience.
Wasn't Sarevok amazingly popular anyway? The guy was about to become a freaking duke.
It doesn't make much sense for evil to leave with or dislike high reputation.
"What? They think we are the good guys, get better rewards and discounts and we are not hunted? Ye goody-goodies make me sick!"
Though I understand that this was implemented so that there's variety in playstyles. Otherwise there wouldn't be a point to it.
I would prefer that "Virtue" mod instead. It keeps morality and reputation seperated.
I also never had a problem to keep mixed parties together long enough to do their quests. In BG2, mixed parties are no rarity at all, since evil must mix. If you intentionally put together NPCs you know will not get along, it might be a problem, but not if you naturally progress through the story.
Edwin found his book, experienced his feminine side, and made a ton of cash money in the process. Plus he got to run around with a super powerful sorceror playing "Who's the better spell caster". So he was happy enough. His biggest objection to the high reputation was actually just the recognition that came with it. He was trying to keep a low profile when I found him.
Viconia got wooed and converted (I also had the multiple romance mod going. I really was trying to complete the absolute most I possibly could), so obviously SHE's very happy.
Also true. She could still worship Abbathor or Deep Duerra and be a pure Thief. A Cleric multi-class would be unable to use daggers and short swords, the two weapon types I almost never manage to find any use for.
We don't *need* another evil cleric but it's about variety.
Good parties have two Clerics: Aerie and Sir Anomen. (Though, I believe Jaheira is closer to Neutral Good)
Neutral parties have two druids: Jaheira and Cernd and one Cleric: default Anomen.
Evil parties have only Viconia.
It's not necessary, but it's nice to have. For example Sir Anomen is more of a warpriest while Aerie and Viconia are more full casters.
Likewise, a more combat-oriented (STR and CON) or multiclass Cleric/Thief would fill that gap, though that is not that necessary.
It would be fun if they made a Shadow Druid or Blighter (Neutral Evil) NPC, instead of a Cleric.
The Blighter is basically a fallen/corrupted Druid, similarly to what a Blackguard is to a Paladin.
@Schneidend
By the way, just did a test and you can't make a dwarven cleric/thief. You can make a single-class Thief or single-class Cleric, but you cannot make a multiclass one, because... screw logic.
Though, they can certainly make an illegal one like Aerie or Dorn but then you have a character that needs STR, DEX, CON and WIS and Dwarves get -1 to Dexterity. Not sure about Duergar in ADnD.
Part of the reason Tiax kinda sucked, gameplay-wise.
Though with a Duergar (Fighter)/Thief, you're all set and kicking ass.
Baeloth will not be returning as a party member. He's busy with other stuff during that time period.