Try not to spoil the encounter for someone who hasn't played it by giving out your uber-tactics. Way to leech the fun from the game.
Who cares? It's a stupid fight, anyway. There's nothing really fun about an enemy that can only be reliably harmed by a handful of bastard swords. It boggles the mind that there are people out there who think this is one of D&D's selling points. "Surprise! Your weapons are useless! What's that? We should have warned you? Ha! That would be a 'spoiler!'"
I prefer bashing things myself, but seriously, it's a werewolf, you have to know it will be a little tricky.
And all things considered its not that hard a fight. Since we're apparently spilling all the beans now; I just enter the fight partially buffed (one tank with strength, another on speed). Have whichever one can hurt the boss go for the boss. Have the other(s) go for the rest of the pack. Have your mages use MM, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc on the big bad. Have a cleric use smiting, and flame strike. The fight usually lasts two or three rounds.
Werewolves always annoyed me in PnP DnD, they always seemed to be there just for douchebag DMs amusement.
The worst part is that, in 3E and Pathfinder, silver weapons actually suffer a damage penalty, meaning they are less useful against everything that ISN'T some kind of werebeast. So, even when you win, you still kind of lose.
Who do you have in your party? Six vanilla Fighters?
IMO is one of the most interesting fights in the game. One of the few that force you to think instead of just hacking and slashing.
Spamming wand blasts and Magic Missile because the most powerful sword on the planet (World's Edge) is for some reason useless isn't interesting at all.
Spamming wand blasts and Magic Missile because the most powerful sword on the planet (World's Edge) is for some reason useless isn't interesting at all.
LOL
Who do you have in your party? Six vanilla mages?
I like that fight because it forces you to find a strategy that would work with your current party and would require only items/spells available to you at that particular time. The actual strategy changes at every playthrough. Sometime I use swords, sometime I use spells, more often I use both.
I like that fight because it forces you to find a strategy that would work with your current party and would require only items/spells available to you at that particular time. The actual strategy changes at every playthrough. Sometime I use swords, sometime I use spells, more often I use both.
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see having to metagame and not sell the anti-werewolf bastard swords as particularly good game design. Having the only non-expansion weapons that can harm the creature be exclusively bastard swords only compounds this further.
I'm confused. Since the werewolf island is itself TotSC content, why is it an issue that most of the items to harm the wolf are found in expansion territory?
I'm confused. Since the werewolf island is itself TotSC content, why is it an issue that most of the items to harm the wolf are found in expansion territory?
That's not my issue so much as the suddenness of a boss enemy that is immune to just about every weapon in the game with no real warning or foreshadowing. Up until that fight, most attacks work just fine against all previous werewolves. It's an issue I've had with D&D in general for a long time and not just Baldur's Gate.
Um, generally speaking a wand of paralysis will always be useful in keeping targets off your back. Just FYI.
Was this directed at me? If so, why?
Wasn't directed at anyone in particular. But I was trying to be circumspect in suggesting a strategy for the combat in question. I found that WoP held the baddies quite nicely while my team destroyed the competition. why? Paranoid? (JK)
As for the suddenness of the change/challenge, I am pretty sure that people on the island will tell you that only silvered weapons work against the leader. In fact, I am sure of it. And the dagger in question is found just prior to the battle. AND there is another weapon in the same room that is much better against Were's. It is well within the realm of possibility (and role playing) to have one person retrieve it and then pass it to your main fighter while in combat.
I'm confused. Since the werewolf island is itself TotSC content, why is it an issue that most of the items to harm the wolf are found in expansion territory?
That's not my issue so much as the suddenness of a boss enemy that is immune to just about every weapon in the game with no real warning or foreshadowing. Up until that fight, most attacks work just fine against all previous werewolves. It's an issue I've had with D&D in general for a long time and not just Baldur's Gate.
Its kind of a timeless staple of monster stories to need some special trick or item to slay the beast, all the way back to Greek mythology. I think its fair game that some foes in D&D will require some special planning to take care of. And the worst of it with the Werewolves is you may have to rearrange your spells. There is never more than one at a time that needs special preparations, the rest can be killed with any magic weapon. And one weapon is available on the island (well two if you count Balduran's Sword); so just learn a werewolf killing combo for your mages and clerics and you're good to go. Its not even meta-gaming, you KNOW you're going against werewolves.
...AND there is another weapon in the same room that is much better against Were's. It is well within the realm of possibility (and role playing) to have one person retrieve it and then pass it to your main fighter while in combat.
All I can think about right now is South Park and the Sword of 1000 Truths.
"Randy: No time! Just take it! Here! [long pause] Randy: Um, how do you hand items from one player to another?"
We'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see having to metagame and not sell the anti-werewolf bastard swords as particularly good game design. Having the only non-expansion weapons that can harm the creature be exclusively bastard swords only compounds this further.
If you think that hold on to a weapon called Werebane on an island full of werewolves or using spells like "Magic Missile" is metagaming, I rest my case.
Its kind of a timeless staple of monster stories to need some special trick or item to slay the beast, all the way back to Greek mythology. I think its fair game that some foes in D&D will require some special planning to take care of. And the worst of it with the Werewolves is you may have to rearrange your spells. There is never more than one at a time that needs special preparations, the rest can be killed with any magic weapon. And one weapon is available on the island (well two if you count Balduran's Sword); so just learn a werewolf killing combo for your mages and clerics and you're good to go. Its not even meta-gaming, you KNOW you're going against werewolves.
It's not the trope I have a problem with, because in well-constructed stories and games there are hints to such things and the hero is always more or less capable of using the weapon/gizmo/power by the time he needs it. My problem is that BG, and many homebrew D&D campaigns and modules, aren't well-constructed in this sense. If you don't find the dagger, tough luck. If you don't have people with dagger or bastard sword proficiency, tough luck.
You know you're going against werewolves, but you only need magical weapons to hurt them like any other weapon-resistant enemy, a precedent the game has set well in advance of encountering the werewolves, and that's great. The problem is that you don't know you're going up against a super werewolf with different protections. The fact that you need to "prepare accordingly" is fine. That's why Wizards have spell books and why warriors have multiple weapon slots, so preparing is part of the game. However, the hiccup is that tactics that previously worked against all werewolves suddenly don't work against this one particular werewolf, and the game didn't drop any hints that this might occur, nor are there any hints as to how to counter it. I'm not saying the game should hand you the dagger and say USE THIS ON THE FINAL BOSS, but it should let you know in some way that the boss is nigh-indestructible BEFORE you encounter him.
Wasn't directed at anyone in particular. But I was trying to be circumspect in suggesting a strategy for the combat in question. I found that WoP held the baddies quite nicely while my team destroyed the competition. why? Paranoid? (JK)
A little paranoid, yeah. I've just been getting a lot of heat lately for pointing out spots where Bioware or Overhaul's design does not strike me as *gasp* absolutely flawless.
As for the suddenness of the change/challenge, I am pretty sure that people on the island will tell you that only silvered weapons work against the leader. In fact, I am sure of it. And the dagger in question is found just prior to the battle. AND there is another weapon in the same room that is much better against Were's. It is well within the realm of possibility (and role playing) to have one person retrieve it and then pass it to your main fighter while in combat.
That'd be great, if we had some indication that the sword was even there, or that it would do the trick. We are given neither.
If you think that hold on to a weapon called Werebane on an island full of werewolves or using spells like "Magic Missile" is metagaming, I rest my case.
/facepalm
No, I don't think casting magic missile is metagaming. I don't think holding onto Werebane is metagaming, either. I think holding onto the anti-shapeshifters bastard sword when you don't use bastard swords, however, is metagaming.
The crux of my complaint is that I don't think the game drops adequate hints that Karoug is going to require special planning to kill, especially after establishing in fights with other werewolves that werewolves are generally no more resistant to steel weapons than a vampiric wolf. If an NPC you needed to talk to said something like "don't be a fool. The werewolf leader is invincible! No weapons can harm him!" or something, that'd assuage me.
No, I don't think casting magic missile is metagaming. I don't think holding onto Werebane is metagaming, either. I think holding onto the anti-shapeshifters bastard sword when you don't use bastard swords, however, is metagaming.
So? Guess what? You don't need the the bastard sword to kill him. It sure helps, but it is not really required.
If an NPC you needed to talk to said something like "don't be a fool. The werewolf leader is invincible! No weapons can harm him!" or something, that'd assuage me.
This. Absolutely this. And for a game that involves a lot of talking and rumor gathering to hint at future challenges, such a conversation would fit in very nicely.
...AND there is another weapon in the same room that is much better against Were's. It is well within the realm of possibility (and role playing) to have one person retrieve it and then pass it to your main fighter while in combat.
All I can think about right now is South Park and the Sword of 1000 Truths.
"Randy: No time! Just take it! Here! [long pause] Randy: Um, how do you hand items from one player to another?"
Well, you toss it. VERY VERY Carefully. and hope that your buddy catches the handle end.
Go to the top floor and conversation will trigger. Just as the other wolfeswares attack and the greater wolfware-guy shifts to his wolf form go down a floor. The wizard and the flock will follow you - but not the alpha male dude (if you go down before he attacks). Kill the others and then you can re-prepare for bashing down the leader. Simplifies things.
Schneidad I think you've chosen an unusual hill to die on and your position is indefensible. First of all, anyone involved in such a deadly business will logically make a point of NOT disclosing their exact strengths and weaknesses. IRL this is often called operational security. Only a fool lets it be known if they have a particular weakness. Secondly, you have a party of experienced, professional adventurers. They know how the game is played. It's completely reasonable that your party is used to watching what weapons and spells are most effective in combat and adjusting accordingly (unless they have like a 5 wisdom?). The game manual itself suggests watching damage reports and paying attention to what is and is not working. Thirdly, this information is not exactly secret. These are published monsters and their special defenses are not surprising to experienced players. Yes, THAT is meta-gaming. But, it is hardly a big deal because finally, this fight is not even that hard. I'm sorry if you had a party shredded you felt shouldn't have been, but it happens. Sometimes it's just bad luck. But seriously, I played this battle four or five times before it even occurred to me that some might find it difficult. If your best tank takes the special werewolf killing dagger against the boss werewolf while your cleric dumps Flame Strike on his head (you do have the Wand of Heaven right? It's an awesome item available in substantial numbers in the game. It gives clerics a good offensive punch in any fight, not just against werewolves). And your mages hit him with damage dealing spells he WON'T be on his feet long. Seriously, I always have dropped him before my second tank and archers have finished with the rest of the pack. If this is your standard of an unfairly difficult fight you are bound for a lot of frustration. It is an interesting challenge, hardly game breaking in any sense.
That'd be great, if we had some indication that the sword was even there, or that it would do the trick. We are given neither.
there are many examples of exactly this type of thing happening in Fantasy and gaming. If you can't take out the bad guy, it is common for him to have conveniently collected the only weapon in the area that CAN hurt him and have it secreted in his lair so that he can gloat over it.
You aren't precluded from using the funny looking sword that the bad guy has locked away from prying eyes (presumably for a reason), even though it is 'Un-identified'. Granted, you do run the risk of it being a Cursed item, but that hardly matters at that stage. As they say, "if you are falling to your death, why not try to learn to fly on the way down? You can hardly make the situation worse." And again, even if you don't use the sword, you are TOLD ahead of time that the bad guy can't be killed by unsilvered weapons. So, if you didn't prepare, you have only yourself to blame.
To be completely honest, the first time I played that battle, after several crushing defeats, I decided to have Imoen scavenge the room while the rest of them held off the attackers. I figured that there might be something in there that could be used. She encountered a sword locked away in a cabinet and said "Khalid! Here, try this!" Whereupon, Khalid finished off the major baddie toot sweet.
I almost wonder if you are looking to have victory handed to you on a silver (pun intended) platter. If not, I apologize. But I hardly think that the challenges set forth are beyond the scope of simple ingenuity and deductive reasoning to solve even without meta-gaming. Sure, it requires a bit of lateral thinking, but then it is a Boss battle. As such, shouldn't it be a bit less straight forward than hack the baddie till the are dead?
I've never tried myself, but Skulltrap should work.
Melf's Minute Meteors are more tricky as they should count as weapons instead of spells, so they should not work, unless they have a silver/cold iron component, but IIRC they also ignore/bypass most resistances, so I'm not sure. I will try to find out and will post the results.
Melf's Minute Meteors are useless but skulltrap can wreck the GWW.
My personal view is that they should have a staff in the house near the GWW that can hurt a GWW so that there is a weapon usable for all classes so someone wanting to do a cleric themed party or soloing, etc. will have an option beyond spamming skulltraps or glyphs of warding if they can't wield bladed weapons. If you have multiple clerics, the cause wounds spells are also effective, for what it is worth.
Schneidad I think you've chosen an unusual hill to die on and your position is indefensible. First of all, anyone involved in such a deadly business will logically make a point of NOT disclosing their exact strengths and weaknesses. IRL this is often called operational security. Only a fool lets it be known if they have a particular weakness. Secondly, you have a party of experienced, professional adventurers. They know how the game is played. It's completely reasonable that your party is used to watching what weapons and spells are most effective in combat and adjusting accordingly (unless they have like a 5 wisdom?). The game manual itself suggests watching damage reports and paying attention to what is and is not working. Thirdly, this information is not exactly secret. These are published monsters and their special defenses are not surprising to experienced players. Yes, THAT is meta-gaming. But, it is hardly a big deal because finally, this fight is not even that hard. I'm sorry if you had a party shredded you felt shouldn't have been, but it happens. Sometimes it's just bad luck. But seriously, I played this battle four or five times before it even occurred to me that some might find it difficult. If your best tank takes the special werewolf killing dagger against the boss werewolf while your cleric dumps Flame Strike on his head (you do have the Wand of Heaven right? It's an awesome item available in substantial numbers in the game. It gives clerics a good offensive punch in any fight, not just against werewolves). And your mages hit him with damage dealing spells he WON'T be on his feet long. Seriously, I always have dropped him before my second tank and archers have finished with the rest of the pack. If this is your standard of an unfairly difficult fight you are bound for a lot of frustration. It is an interesting challenge, hardly game breaking in any sense.
1. I am not suggesting Karoug should broadcast his weakness. I am suggesting that in a well-designed game the narrative should hint at his unusual qualities that differ him greatly from other werewolves.
2. I never suggested it's metagaming for the party to switch strategies on the fly.
3. I haven't had much trouble with this fight either. I've defeated him on both of my BG1 playthroughs, one in BGTutu and again in BGEE. I'm not complaining that it is too hard. I am pointing out a flaw in the expansion's design that can prove frustrating to fresh players, something that will always sprout up in D&D in general if creatures with specific resistances are not sufficiently prefaced either with narrative cues or mechanical precedents.
You have mistaken my argument for one born out of an inability to complete this encounter. It's not that I haven't won so much as whether or not you can win is immaterial to whether or not the encounter has been designed well. The game doesn't provide enough context clues and I am rightly criticizing that aspect of the gameplay.
Comments
Who do you have in your party? Six vanilla Fighters?
IMO is one of the most interesting fights in the game. One of the few that force you to think instead of just hacking and slashing.
And all things considered its not that hard a fight. Since we're apparently spilling all the beans now; I just enter the fight partially buffed (one tank with strength, another on speed). Have whichever one can hurt the boss go for the boss. Have the other(s) go for the rest of the pack. Have your mages use MM, Melf's Acid Arrow, Flame Arrow, etc on the big bad. Have a cleric use smiting, and flame strike.
The fight usually lasts two or three rounds.
Who do you have in your party? Six vanilla mages?
I like that fight because it forces you to find a strategy that would work with your current party and would require only items/spells available to you at that particular time. The actual strategy changes at every playthrough. Sometime I use swords, sometime I use spells, more often I use both.
As for the suddenness of the change/challenge, I am pretty sure that people on the island will tell you that only silvered weapons work against the leader. In fact, I am sure of it. And the dagger in question is found just prior to the battle. AND there is another weapon in the same room that is much better against Were's. It is well within the realm of possibility (and role playing) to have one person retrieve it and then pass it to your main fighter while in combat.
"Randy: No time! Just take it! Here!
[long pause]
Randy: Um, how do you hand items from one player to another?"
You know you're going against werewolves, but you only need magical weapons to hurt them like any other weapon-resistant enemy, a precedent the game has set well in advance of encountering the werewolves, and that's great. The problem is that you don't know you're going up against a super werewolf with different protections. The fact that you need to "prepare accordingly" is fine. That's why Wizards have spell books and why warriors have multiple weapon slots, so preparing is part of the game. However, the hiccup is that tactics that previously worked against all werewolves suddenly don't work against this one particular werewolf, and the game didn't drop any hints that this might occur, nor are there any hints as to how to counter it. I'm not saying the game should hand you the dagger and say USE THIS ON THE FINAL BOSS, but it should let you know in some way that the boss is nigh-indestructible BEFORE you encounter him. A little paranoid, yeah. I've just been getting a lot of heat lately for pointing out spots where Bioware or Overhaul's design does not strike me as *gasp* absolutely flawless. That'd be great, if we had some indication that the sword was even there, or that it would do the trick. We are given neither.
No, I don't think casting magic missile is metagaming. I don't think holding onto Werebane is metagaming, either. I think holding onto the anti-shapeshifters bastard sword when you don't use bastard swords, however, is metagaming.
The crux of my complaint is that I don't think the game drops adequate hints that Karoug is going to require special planning to kill, especially after establishing in fights with other werewolves that werewolves are generally no more resistant to steel weapons than a vampiric wolf. If an NPC you needed to talk to said something like "don't be a fool. The werewolf leader is invincible! No weapons can harm him!" or something, that'd assuage me.
The wizard and the flock will follow you - but not the alpha male dude (if you go down before he attacks).
Kill the others and then you can re-prepare for bashing down the leader. Simplifies things.
If this is your standard of an unfairly difficult fight you are bound for a lot of frustration. It is an interesting challenge, hardly game breaking in any sense.
You aren't precluded from using the funny looking sword that the bad guy has locked away from prying eyes (presumably for a reason), even though it is 'Un-identified'. Granted, you do run the risk of it being a Cursed item, but that hardly matters at that stage. As they say, "if you are falling to your death, why not try to learn to fly on the way down? You can hardly make the situation worse." And again, even if you don't use the sword, you are TOLD ahead of time that the bad guy can't be killed by unsilvered weapons. So, if you didn't prepare, you have only yourself to blame.
To be completely honest, the first time I played that battle, after several crushing defeats, I decided to have Imoen scavenge the room while the rest of them held off the attackers. I figured that there might be something in there that could be used. She encountered a sword locked away in a cabinet and said "Khalid! Here, try this!" Whereupon, Khalid finished off the major baddie toot sweet.
I almost wonder if you are looking to have victory handed to you on a silver (pun intended) platter. If not, I apologize. But I hardly think that the challenges set forth are beyond the scope of simple ingenuity and deductive reasoning to solve even without meta-gaming. Sure, it requires a bit of lateral thinking, but then it is a Boss battle. As such, shouldn't it be a bit less straight forward than hack the baddie till the are dead?
My personal view is that they should have a staff in the house near the GWW that can hurt a GWW so that there is a weapon usable for all classes so someone wanting to do a cleric themed party or soloing, etc. will have an option beyond spamming skulltraps or glyphs of warding if they can't wield bladed weapons. If you have multiple clerics, the cause wounds spells are also effective, for what it is worth.
2. I never suggested it's metagaming for the party to switch strategies on the fly.
3. I haven't had much trouble with this fight either. I've defeated him on both of my BG1 playthroughs, one in BGTutu and again in BGEE. I'm not complaining that it is too hard. I am pointing out a flaw in the expansion's design that can prove frustrating to fresh players, something that will always sprout up in D&D in general if creatures with specific resistances are not sufficiently prefaced either with narrative cues or mechanical precedents.
You have mistaken my argument for one born out of an inability to complete this encounter. It's not that I haven't won so much as whether or not you can win is immaterial to whether or not the encounter has been designed well. The game doesn't provide enough context clues and I am rightly criticizing that aspect of the gameplay.