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Silly kits

This might have been pointed out earlir, but I haven't seen any thead.

I came to think about the different classes and kits and how the bhaalspawn actually should have come to be trained in them. The original classes are all rather well explained. A fighter trained by the watchers, a cleric trained in the temple or a mage trained by Gorion. But what about som of the kits? How would he have become a swashbuckler? That's just ridiculous. The monk has some explanation involving visiting monks, but what about kensai? A barbarian, why would he become a barbarian growing up in a castle-library with mages?
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Comments

  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    i had the exact same beef about barbarian, but there is a bio if you create a barbarian that explains one came to Candlekeep (called Uthgardt, or something) and she teaches you all about being a barbarian and tapping your inner rage and stuff.

    and yes i also agree that some/most of the kits make more sense after charname has some initial experience in the corresponding vanilla class
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    I admit that I don't recall ever looking at the stock bio (I'm sure I did with vanilla BG1 over a decade ago). Did it always reference the class or kit?

    Other problematic classes for this are the woodsy ranger and druid. Assassin is another.

    There are visitors to Candlkeep and Gorion could have his Harper friends come train you in whatever. But the prologue states you have spent most of your 20 years within Candlekeep's cloistered walls. If the bio references the class/kit I'll have to start checking to see how they fudge that for some of the more problematic ones.
  • gaerrentgaerrent Member Posts: 14
    Yes, the typical forest classes and kits are strange. I do somehow remember there being a reference to PC walking in the forests surrounding Candlekeep. Which of course contradict the prologue and the entry rule for the library.
  • gaerrentgaerrent Member Posts: 14
    A similar minor thing is some of the portraits. It's clear that PC is a young person about twenty years, but some of the portraits depict old People. Maybe he/she is very mature.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited February 2013
    Well, you're a resident of Candlekeep not a visitor, so you wouldn't need a tome to be admitted. I guess "within the walls" means "not far outside the walls" for the nature lovers.

    Gorion allowing CHARNAME to be trained as the cleric of an evil god is very implausible, though. I suppose it could be a masterful subterfuge on the part of that deity's clergy, with the cleric providing the training masquerading as something else. But an epic level Harper such as Gorion failing to see through that is hard to believe.

    Perhaps the PC gains spells and powers directly from the deity, including via dreams.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Don't forget that CHARNAME is only lvl 1. As such, he/she basically only just started whatever training is necessary for their class/kit.

    It's true they lived in Candlekeep for 20 years, but that doesn't mean they were locked up inside the keep itself all this time. I do imagine they took strolls through the surrounding woods etc., where they very well may have developed some basic connection to nature if they are, say, a Ranger or Druid.

    Then there's also the fact that Candlekeep is an enormous repository of knowledge. It shouldn't be hard for someone living there to educate themselves on all manners of subjects. Grab a nasty book of poison-brewing and some general sneakiness and presto: you are on your way to becoming an Assassin!

    And as you rightly mentioned, Candlekeep is a destination for all sorts of people - people that may well stay there for a while, inspiring and teaching impressionable young Bhaalspawn in whatever ways they represent.

    Always remember you are lvl 1 - the journey is only just beginning, you haven't had years and years of intense training or anything.
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  • JalilyJalily Member Posts: 4,681
    Lemernis said:

    Well, you're a resident of Candlekeep not a visitor, so you wouldn't need a tome to be admitted. I guess "within the walls" means "not far outside the walls" for the nature lovers.

    If you try to reenter Candlekeep after Gorion is killed, the Keeper of the Portal tells you you have to donate a tome to get in even though you lived there for 20 years.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Bhaaldog said:

    gaerrent said:

    A similar minor thing is some of the portraits. It's clear that PC is a young person about twenty years, but some of the portraits depict old People. Maybe he/she is very mature.

    Another valid point. Although many of those portraits are from the NPCs you meet in the game who are of different ages.
    Yeah. Technically the only untaken portraits are the first two for each sex.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Is that because we are supposed to use own portraits, or because we are supposed to be Abdel Adrian...?
  • FafnirFafnir Member Posts: 232

    Abdel Adrian

    Who?
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    edited February 2013
    Ranger and Druid could be explained by training from Khalid and jaheira for months adventuring, Myskas idea from another thread ( I might have got the spelling of his name wrong, ill have to look it up real quick)


    Anyway, the idea is that charnames class doesn't have to reflect growing up in Candlekeep; rather it can be reflective of charnames training after leaving it.

    Edit: @Mykra
  • ReadingRamboReadingRambo Member Posts: 598
    The stock blackguard bio is pretty interesting by the way. I like reading all the stock bios, they are pretty cool. Not all kits have one, but blackguard definitely does
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    You know, I always perceived my character in a certain way separated from the plot: Of course you follow the main plot, but most of the time you do and explore what you like to and don't bother much with your 'true' goal, because the game gives so much freedom to the player (especially from a 2000s viewpoint). In BG II, I was most of all the Slayer of Fierkraag, running around in dragonslayer's armour and exploring the widths and depths of Amn. :)
  • gaerrentgaerrent Member Posts: 14
    Bhaaldog said:

    gaerrent said:

    A similar minor thing is some of the portraits. It's clear that PC is a young person about twenty years, but some of the portraits depict old People. Maybe he/she is very mature.

    Another valid point. Although many of those portraits are from the NPCs you meet in the game who are of different ages.
    Absolutely. I was mainly thinking of the portrait pack that is available as a DLC in BGEE. At least a couple of them do look funny. The youg mage apprentice, regularely called kid, looks like a seventy years old man.
  • gaerrentgaerrent Member Posts: 14
    This is actually how the bio for avenger look, maybe it's the same for other druids as well. So I guess I take back some of my previous comments (though the swashbuckler still stand I think, that has to be the silliest one).
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    all kits have the same bio as their vanilla class, except for blackguard. monks, barbarians and sorcerers have different bios
  • revaarrevaar Member Posts: 160
    If you think hard enough about it,you can come up with an rp reason for just about any class or kit.
    Rangers and Druids were the horse and cow whisperers of candlekeep, always feeling a close tie to nature, despite being mostly cutoff from it.
    Barbarians were always wild children, unable to be controlled by any nanny or tutor you were assigned, until gorion showed you a book about the barbarians of the frozen north, whom you decided to emulate.
    A priest of talos, long bored by the ohgma(sp?) worship, finds a dusty tome in a dark corner of the library, detailing the practices and proper worship of dark deities.
    An assassin spends years reading tomes on anatomy and medicine, those watching him mistakenly thinking he is learning the science of healing.
    As was stated by others, since Charname is only level one, all you need are the building blocks and interests, the skills come from adventuring.
  • redlineredline Member Posts: 296

    You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' Or 'Oghma is so boring, who wants to worship the god of knowledge. What does hr give his clerics, the power to read books? I bet Talos lets you rain chaos and destruction on the land.. I'm gonna pray to Talos tonight.' And three days later Gorion tells you that you're both leaving on a journey... after his death you cling to the only thing that's familiar anymore, your decision to become . So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a scary assassin trying to hide in the shadows, not really knowing how to do it (or which way the pointy end goes - thac0 18/19/20) or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles. Not how you quite expected it...

    Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply because they told themselves they were going to learn magic, nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off -- just because he or she put his or her mind to it.

    And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.

    Even though a level 1 character is pretty terrible relative to an experienced adventurer, they still possess skills and abilities far beyond what an average mud farmer would have, and so one would expect CHARNAME's chosen class to be something for which training was available in Candlekeep.

  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    redline said:

    Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply (...)

    Sorcerers can do exactly that.
    This fact makes Wizards even grouchier than they would normally be.
    redline said:

    And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.

    If he lacked proficiency in longswords, you might have the same chance to hit. There would be differences due to physical stats, and the class non-proficiency penalty might be different, since you're real (and real people have no class).


    Anyway, among PnP folks, opinions vary. Some groups decide that training is an on-the-job kind of thing and that you're basically thrown into 1st level with little more than a handshake and a "good luck new recruit!", while others decide that 1st level represents years of training and/or backstory. Neither is well supported by the rules.

    In real life, soldiers with years of training don't suddenly become twice as tough after two days of stabbing people, nor does attack accuracy improve at a fixed rate with relation to stabbings. The whole experience level thing isn't really a good model for reality, nor are HP a perfect model for injury, so "realism" can't be particularly compelling as an argument one way or the other.

    What we're left with is what works for the game, and there's no reason for every PC to be shoe-horned into one or the other.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    redline said:

    You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' Or 'Oghma is so boring, who wants to worship the god of knowledge. What does hr give his clerics, the power to read books? I bet Talos lets you rain chaos and destruction on the land.. I'm gonna pray to Talos tonight.' And three days later Gorion tells you that you're both leaving on a journey... after his death you cling to the only thing that's familiar anymore, your decision to become . So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a scary assassin trying to hide in the shadows, not really knowing how to do it (or which way the pointy end goes - thac0 18/19/20) or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles. Not how you quite expected it...

    Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply because they told themselves they were going to learn magic, nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off -- just because he or she put his or her mind to it.

    And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.

    Even though a level 1 character is pretty terrible relative to an experienced adventurer, they still possess skills and abilities far beyond what an average mud farmer would have, and so one would expect CHARNAME's chosen class to be something for which training was available in Candlekeep.

    You are absolutely right redline. I would assume a starting character already had YEARS of training. In fact, in PNP you can look at starting ages and how they vary between classes, and if memory serves I believe Mages start at least five years older than anyone else. The difference is assumed to be training time.
    In AD&D there actually are rules for zero-level characters. And yes, they are even weaker than 1st level characters, but they already have a few months of training. And zero level is what ordinary soldiers and guards were supposed to be. Hoards of 5th level fighters is an invention of the CRPG for balancing reasons.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    All of the kits and classes can be easily explained. No, I won't bother to do so. This is a discussion that has been done to death, and there is always at least one quibbling naysayer who refuses to accept explanations for a given class.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    edited February 2013

    All of the kits and classes can be easily explained. No, I won't bother to do so. This is a discussion that has been done to death, and there is always at least one quibbling naysayer who refuses to accept explanations for a given class.

    Yep, seen it for all sorts of things -- The Legend of Zelda, WarCraft... The one person who, despite having everything spelled out for them, brays like a donkey that they're right and everybody is wrong. :|
    redline said:

    You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' Or 'Oghma is so boring, who wants to worship the god of knowledge. What does hr give his clerics, the power to read books? I bet Talos lets you rain chaos and destruction on the land.. I'm gonna pray to Talos tonight.' And three days later Gorion tells you that you're both leaving on a journey... after his death you cling to the only thing that's familiar anymore, your decision to become . So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a scary assassin trying to hide in the shadows, not really knowing how to do it (or which way the pointy end goes - thac0 18/19/20) or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles. Not how you quite expected it...

    Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply because they told themselves they were going to learn magic, nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off -- just because he or she put his or her mind to it.

    And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.

    Even though a level 1 character is pretty terrible relative to an experienced adventurer, they still possess skills and abilities far beyond what an average mud farmer would have, and so one would expect CHARNAME's chosen class to be something for which training was available in Candlekeep.

    Thank you.

    Well, maybe Wizard Slayers got sick of all the wizards in the keep and decided to do something about them when they left. :3
  • AHFAHF Member Posts: 1,376

    Don't forget that CHARNAME is only lvl 1. As such, he/she basically only just started whatever training is necessary for their class/kit.

    It's true they lived in Candlekeep for 20 years, but that doesn't mean they were locked up inside the keep itself all this time. I do imagine they took strolls through the surrounding woods etc., where they very well may have developed some basic connection to nature if they are, say, a Ranger or Druid.

    Then there's also the fact that Candlekeep is an enormous repository of knowledge. It shouldn't be hard for someone living there to educate themselves on all manners of subjects. Grab a nasty book of poison-brewing and some general sneakiness and presto: you are on your way to becoming an Assassin!

    And as you rightly mentioned, Candlekeep is a destination for all sorts of people - people that may well stay there for a while, inspiring and teaching impressionable young Bhaalspawn in whatever ways they represent.

    Always remember you are lvl 1 - the journey is only just beginning, you haven't had years and years of intense training or anything.

    I think @Lord_Tansheron nailed it pretty early in this thread.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    A 20 years old charname in a huge library can have read about every possible class and combination, and gained theoretical knowledge. That alone makes them better than someone with zero knowledge about the matter. If you give someone who never read about engineering some car parts and tell them to put them together, they will likely do much worse than someone who read many books about building cars.
    The forest classes like ranger and druid can also come from theory; that person would have studied animals and their behavior and/or types and uses of plants. So your starting efficiency is - you know which mushrooms you can eat without dying, where someone else would eat the first thing they see and die from poison. Or happily approach a bear and be eaten, where a ranger knows how to act to appear non-threatening to wild animals and not get attacked. It's not like theoretical knowledge is useless.
  • ScytheKnightScytheKnight Member Posts: 220
    Yeah, I do find it kinda odd how some people carry on about 'How could CHARNAME possibly know about that?' when ummmm... they've lived their entire life inside one of the biggest libraries in the world.
  • buttersworthbuttersworth Member Posts: 9
    Nifft said:

    real people have no class

    Amen.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747

    Yeah, I do find it kinda odd how some people carry on about 'How could CHARNAME possibly know about that?' when ummmm... they've lived their entire life inside one of the biggest libraries in the world.

    Yeah and with the divine classes (cleric, paladin/knight, monk), it doesn't even make sense they are that class without having read about them. Religion is pretty heavy on literature, and it's not like evil deities are secret cults. It's very likely Gorion taught charname about many deities, one caught the interest and charname studied the writings about that deity and tried to find the best way to serve them. That's how any faith starts, by reading about it. It's quite rare people meet a deity and are directly trained by them.

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