Yeah, I do find it kinda odd how some people carry on about 'How could CHARNAME possibly know about that?' when ummmm... they've lived their entire life inside one of the biggest libraries in the world.
Yeah and with the divine classes (cleric, paladin/knight, monk), it doesn't even make sense they are that class without having read about them. Religion is pretty heavy on literature, and it's not like evil deities are secret cults. It's very likely Gorion taught charname about many deities, one caught the interest and charname studied the writings about that deity and tried to find the best way to serve them. That's how any faith starts, by reading about it. It's quite rare people meet a deity and are directly trained by them.
Unless you're a v3.5 Favored Soul and then a deity is like, "Hey, you're pretty cool. Here's some spells. Try not to get yourself killed, you'll get wings later on!". I kid, even they need training of a sort.
You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' Or 'Oghma is so boring, who wants to worship the god of knowledge. What does hr give his clerics, the power to read books? I bet Talos lets you rain chaos and destruction on the land.. I'm gonna pray to Talos tonight.' And three days later Gorion tells you that you're both leaving on a journey... after his death you cling to the only thing that's familiar anymore, your decision to become . So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a scary assassin trying to hide in the shadows, not really knowing how to do it (or which way the pointy end goes - thac0 18/19/20) or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles. Not how you quite expected it...
Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply because they told themselves they were going to learn magic, nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off -- just because he or she put his or her mind to it.
And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.
Even though a level 1 character is pretty terrible relative to an experienced adventurer, they still possess skills and abilities far beyond what an average mud farmer would have, and so one would expect CHARNAME's chosen class to be something for which training was available in Candlekeep.
I'm not going to rehash @Nifft's arguments that actually, sorcerers and favored souls cast with no prior study, but rather ask how you explain dual-classing at level 2 then? You're 1 week away from Candlekeep, in your own words having trained as a fighter for years, and then you suddenly dual-class and you're a mage. No training. You stole a few scrolls or found them on the corpses of random mobs and you can suddenly understand how that Cloudkill spell works even if you can't cast it yet.
"nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off" If you get a human or half-orc thief (no bonuses) and you spend all your points in something other than Find Traps, I guarantee you're going to set quite a few traps off. And, to make it more "realistic" (silly word really, since it's a fantasy game ), try not making a straight 18s character. After all, if any person was dropped in a den of kobolds they wouldn't have 18/19 dexterity. ...or 18/19 strength, or even 18/19 constitution (depending on race). Aside from maybe a few exceptions, most anyone here would be 14-17 range (10 being peasant statistics). The only thing which Charname posesses is exceptional stats and a few abilities. No experience at all, only theoretical background in whichever class they chose.
And speaking of abilities, I wish Charname had the wonderful peasant ability of Summon Guards. Guess how many assassination attemps that would have fended off even at level 1. Summon Guards (1 extra use every 5 levels) for Good and Neutral characters Summon Bodyguards (1 extra use every 5 levels) for Evil characters and it's triggered automatically if anyone tries to pickpocket you, after they charm you in sight of others, or selects the attack option. [ upgraded in BG2 to Summon Cowled Wizards on any spell cast in your vicinity. ]
*Charname walks into the Priest's quarters in Candlekeep. Before she can blink, she hears a familiar voice* 'For the glory of Amn!' *Looking around, she notices a shifty looking man bleeding from his chest. Shrugging, she goes about her business*
Actually, Candlekeep is the ideal starting place such a wide range kits. It's the one place you can find a book on anything and everything. A normal person might not be able to reach 1st level simply by studying books, but as we know, CHARNAME isn't a normal person...
Yes, the typical forest classes and kits are strange. I do somehow remember there being a reference to PC walking in the forests surrounding Candlekeep. Which of course contradict the prologue and the entry rule for the library.
But that's the charm, isn't it? I'd love to add on my character's bio "well, I haven't actually been cloistered for all those years . Sometimes we took trips to the surrounding forests..."
Yeah, I do find it kinda odd how some people carry on about 'How could CHARNAME possibly know about that?' when ummmm... they've lived their entire life inside one of the biggest libraries in the world.
Yeah and with the divine classes (cleric, paladin/knight, monk), it doesn't even make sense they are that class without having read about them. Religion is pretty heavy on literature, and it's not like evil deities are secret cults. It's very likely Gorion taught charname about many deities, one caught the interest and charname studied the writings about that deity and tried to find the best way to serve them. That's how any faith starts, by reading about it. It's quite rare people meet a deity and are directly trained by them.
Unless you're a v3.5 Favored Soul and then a deity is like, "Hey, you're pretty cool. Here's some spells. Try not to get yourself killed, you'll get wings later on!". I kid, even they need training of a sort.
Ya, it's so rare that it doesn't happen in Candlekeep.
But I understand those as "naturally gifted" like a 5 years old who can somehow play Mozart on the piano before learning to write or read. A teacher or mentor can't "train" them to become better because in most cases, the teacher isn't better. It's more "guiding" than "teaching".
I'm not going to rehash @Nifft's arguments that actually, sorcerers and favored souls cast with no prior study, but rather ask how you explain dual-classing at level 2 then? You're 1 week away from Candlekeep, in your own words having trained as a fighter for years, and then you suddenly dual-class and you're a mage. No training. You stole a few scrolls or found them on the corpses of random mobs and you can suddenly understand how that Cloudkill spell works even if you can't cast it yet.
This character who has been studying for at least a decade in Candlekeep has to be smart to dual class to a mage so 17 or 18 intelligence to begin with. That type of person is exceptionally bright, pretty much as smart or smarter than anyone you have ever met, and picks things up extremely quickly. So let's assume that person starts out as a fighter.
Is it too far out of bounds to suppose that as part of the fighter training that character learns a lot about mages and magic so he can understand how to fight against it? He finds this study fascinating and really dives into it (setting himself up as a candidate for future dual classing). After leaving Candlekeep and fighting some battles (perhaps against one or more mages like the one by the Friendly Arm Inn), the Charname has an epiphany that he should join those mages rather than beat them and decides to apply all the studying he did on how magic works to become a mage rather than to simply fight against them. He picks up a couple scrolls he had collected and dedicates himself to a new career in magic.
It is very possible he even has a great mentor to help him along (Xzar).
I believe Charname has been able to leave, because in the text crawl right before you take control outside Candlekeep it says something along the lines of, "Without Gorion's influence, the doors remain closed to you." So by that, I think you can infer that you have left at some point and were allowed back in, due to Gorion.
I believe Charname has been able to leave, because in the text crawl right before you take control outside Candlekeep it says something along the lines of, "Without Gorion's influence, the doors remain closed to you." So by that, I think you can infer that you have left at some point and were allowed back in, due to Gorion.
It's the same as saying "I've lived in that small town all my life" or "I've studied here since I was a child" . Even if you did, you must have had contact with other enviroments.
You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' Or 'Oghma is so boring, who wants to worship the god of knowledge. What does hr give his clerics, the power to read books? I bet Talos lets you rain chaos and destruction on the land.. I'm gonna pray to Talos tonight.' And three days later Gorion tells you that you're both leaving on a journey... after his death you cling to the only thing that's familiar anymore, your decision to become . So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a scary assassin trying to hide in the shadows, not really knowing how to do it (or which way the pointy end goes - thac0 18/19/20) or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles. Not how you quite expected it...
Not being a PnP veteran, I may be wrong here, but I was under the impression that from an RP perspective, a person only reaches level 1 through some degree of dedication and training. After all, an untrained peasant isn't able to fire off a magic missile simply because they told themselves they were going to learn magic, nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off -- just because he or she put his or her mind to it.
And, speaking as someone with no martial training, if you dropped me in a den of kobolds, handed me a longsword, and told me to defend myself, you could be darn sure I wouldn't fare as well as a level 1 fighter would.
Even though a level 1 character is pretty terrible relative to an experienced adventurer, they still possess skills and abilities far beyond what an average mud farmer would have, and so one would expect CHARNAME's chosen class to be something for which training was available in Candlekeep.
I'm not going to rehash @Nifft's arguments that actually, sorcerers and favored souls cast with no prior study, but rather ask how you explain dual-classing at level 2 then? You're 1 week away from Candlekeep, in your own words having trained as a fighter for years, and then you suddenly dual-class and you're a mage. No training. You stole a few scrolls or found them on the corpses of random mobs and you can suddenly understand how that Cloudkill spell works even if you can't cast it yet.
To be honest, I've never considered dual-classing as a whole to make much sense, at least in terms of anything you'd see in real life.
If you are going to poke holes in the mythos of the game, there is a point where Imoen (a human) indicates that she has know Charname all of his life. Um.... What if he is an elf who doesn't come to maturity until he is almost 100? Dwarves also mature at a slower rate than humans.
As for the conversation about 'Forest dweller' type classes, I could read that Charname was cloistered in (and around) Candlekeep all of his/her life. Now this wouldn't necessarily give rise to Barbarian (per say), but it does mean that there is an easy explanation for some of the stranger classes.
I recently played a Half-Orc Fighter/Thief. I took his personality and class as an outgrowth of both his orc nature and his parentage. There are enough 'Cracks' to slip through to flesh out his background to make it work for me. But I do admit that some of the classes would be hard pressed.
But then again, remember that Candlekeep is one of the biggest libraries in all of Faerun and probably has detailed explorations of just about every class available. And I bet quite a lot of colorful people come to visit. Just my two cents.
RP' wise , people dual class at lower levels for two reasons :
1) they suck at their current class, or find no use for it anymore. 2) they have always planned on changing profession.
So , in that case , a "war wizard" may have had martial training first, but he had always studied magical theory . Also, it is unlikely that a DM would let him advance to another class by using a few scrolls only - he needs somebody to mediate his change.
I'm not going to rehash @Nifft's arguments that actually, sorcerers and favored souls cast with no prior study, but rather ask how you explain dual-classing at level 2 then? You're 1 week away from Candlekeep, in your own words having trained as a fighter for years, and then you suddenly dual-class and you're a mage. No training. You stole a few scrolls or found them on the corpses of random mobs and you can suddenly understand how that Cloudkill spell works even if you can't cast it yet.
Who is to say you haven't been training all along for the second class? You (metaphorically) went to college for one thing but secretly always wanted to do something else so you studied for it at night and on weekends?
There is also the question of affinity. I am not talking about Sorcerers or Favored Souls, but there have been instances where someone always had an affinity for something but just never realized it. They played around with it as a hobby and then one day said "Why am I an accountant when my real love and passion is for football".
Just saying that no one is committing to you only having trained in one profession in your formative years in Candlekeep. That is a construct of your own design.
@AHF@the_spyder If you trained in more than one profession then why aren't you a multi-class? Being a single class assumed you trained in one thing... and the race thing doesn't really float. Humans can't be a multi-class because they can't focus on more than one profession. The other races can. They can study magic, spend time poring over tomes, praying to their deity for guidance and training at the same time. Humans can't. That's why they give up the option to advance in the first class once they start studying for the second one. They can only do one thing at a time and are forever stuck at that level in their first class. So either they were studying for magic, or they were fighting, or they were picking locks.
I don't think how praying once a day for spells would otherwise stop you from picking up your mace and sparing with your companions to learn to hit (improve your thac0). I mean if you were doing the same thing in Candlekeep: training with the guards for 6 hours and then reading for 2 hours.
This is why I said that you're just a kid with no experience and you probably didn't train much before leaving with Gorion. You have 0 XP and the Gatewarden sends you to learn how to hit things. The guy next to Reevor teaches you how to attack. You spent your time being a kid and dreaming of becoming something. Not actually becoming it. You may be smart or strong or charismatic or extremely agile but you've been mucking around with Imoen. You have the raw potential but none of the real experience.
You aren't getting the point. See again my college example. To translate it into BG terms, a person might start their career learning everything there is to learn about soldiering from Hull but not be very good at it. They may very well complete their training out of some altruistic desire to please Gorion, yet all the while be studying magic on the side. This doesn't mean that they are Multi-class or even Dual class, merely that they have the training and foundation to broaden their horizons once they have the freedom to do so.
I personally can absolutely see someone in Candlekeep being expected to learn to be a wizard. They may study every single day and 'Pass' the tests by the skin of their teeth. They may put in the time but not really be 'In the spirit' of it and all the while staring out the window at the other boys training to be a soldier. They might even spend all of their off hours 'playing' swords with their friends.
To take a different approach, thievery might very well be an extension of just about any class. You are a bit better at sneaking around to get what you want instead of the straight fight. That doesn't make them a fully trained 'Thief', but might very well give them the foundation they need to make the leap.
And Clerics even more so. They might be a VERY devout fighter, praying every night for victory in the battle the next day. And then one day discover that they are a much better cleric than a fighter. That doesn't mean they 'Trained' to be one, but discovered that what they were doing in their off hours actually translates into a profession.
@the_spyder Ermm... that's a bit arrogant. I don't have to get any point. The point was that the OP had a problem with explaining the kits. He said it was silly that you could train to be a swashbuckler or a barbarian or a berserker or a druid when the environment wasn't really suited to it.
I wrote my own point of view which was that you just spent spent your 'formative years' both reading and watching others fight, not joining in, not casting many spells, not learning 4-5 different weapon styles. That's where the 0 experience comes from. When Charname is faced with the harsh reality outside of Candlekeep he has to use his natural abilities. So he gets a bit more experience as a mage... Where he first knew how to shield himself and maybe put Imoen to sleep, now he can also appear frightening or create a magical armor ...but he finds he can't focus on casting more than 3-4 spells every day.. and he's frustrated, impatient. He gives up, picks up a halberd, and cleaves the nearest hobgoblin in half. Occasionally he might look at his mage companions with longing, but reminds himself that it wasn't for him, not really. So nothing more comes of it. He might be a good chess player, an excellent strategist, a good puzzle solver, but never a good mage.
This is my personal explanation for any kit and any dual class. Since you yourself have an explanation for Charname's background I hardly see a need to try and convince me of your reasoning. We each explain things the way we want. The OP thought the pre-defined explanations/character bios 'silly'. Might want to convince him
@AHF@the_spyder Humans can't be a multi-class because they can't focus on more than one profession. The other races can. They can study magic, spend time poring over tomes, praying to their deity for guidance and training at the same time. Humans can't. That's why they give up the option to advance in the first class once they start studying for the second one. They can only do one thing at a time and are forever stuck at that level in their first class. So either they were studying for magic, or they were fighting, or they were picking locks.
This is your read on things, not the game's or anyone elses. It sounds like you just don't like dual classing because the narrative that you list above seems to preclude any human from dual classing because they can only learn about one thing and one thing only. This narrative strikes me as odd as a human being who when I was the age of Charname spent time studying and performing music, playing sports, majoring in science, minoring in a humanities area and volunteering in a legal job.
It seems much more logical to me to think that a human being can educate themselves about multiple areas and that special ones (who are particularly gifted in a given field) can move from one class to another. There are a hundred different variations on this theme that can justify dual classing from a role playing perspective and innumerable real life examples of the same (Leonardo Da Vinci for multiple areas, Steve Young for moving from HOF Quarterback to Lawyer/Venture Capitalist).
The actual game mechanic is odd (why would you instantly forget the skills from the other class?) but the idea of a human changing fields from a role playing perspective is not a big stretch.
There are very few cases where I see dualing as a natural thing for a character to do. It is not logical that a fighter decides to become a mage, practises magic to a point of completely forgetting how to use a sword, all while on the road and hunted by assassins, in troubled times after losing both home and father, and then magically remembers the sword skills, uses them again, but never becomes one bit better at them anymore. Even if "your heart isn't into it", simply using swords all the time is training and a person using it every day of their life should get better over time.
One of the few "natural" cases is Xzar becoming a cleric. It's still a casting class, and necromancy already deals with death and afterlife, so exploring these things from a different, divine angle makes a lot sense. Especially because the cleric spells can still fit in the necromancy school (Raise Dead, Turn Undead - evil clerics don't make them explode or go away, they actually turn them friendly - that alone is a perfect fit).
@AHF Seeing as I have several dual class characters who I roleplayed as much as I am able, I hardly think I have something against them. Let me quote what I said:
"You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles." (post on the first page)
"I wrote my own point of view which was that you just spent spent your 'formative years' both reading and watching others fight, not joining in, not casting many spells, not learning 4-5 different weapon styles. That's where the 0 experience comes from. [...] This is my personal explanation for any kit and any dual class. Since you yourself have an explanation for Charname's background I hardly see a need to try and convince me of your reasoning. We each explain things the way we want. " (post above yours)
This was relevant to the topic of explaining the presence of some kits in BG1. Feel free to have your own interpretation but don't pigeonhole me into a dual class hating person because I happen to own an opinion on the matter of prior experience in Candlekeep. O.O Which isn't even relevant to the matter of Biographies and Kits.
It is not logical that a fighter decides to become a mage, practises magic to a point of completely forgetting how to use a sword, all while on the road and hunted by assassins, in troubled times after losing both home and father, and then magically remembers the sword skills, uses them again, but never becomes one bit better at them anymore.
I agree that the forgetting doesn't make sense from any angle. There is no rationalizing that aspect of the 2nd edition dual classing mechanic.
The fundamental idea of human doing or focusing on different things is not a hard stretch by any means. This underlies multi-classing for other races and dual classing for humans. It isn't a hard think for me to think through on a RP level -- if you ignore the 'forgetting' part of the mechanic.
The lack of improvment actually does make sense to me, though. Think about it in terms of sports or music if you have done either competitively. If you think about the level of training you put in when you were really focused on this and then your level of aptitude after years of doing it only recreationally you will probably see that you regressed from your competitive peak or at best simply maintained what you had. Once you hit a certain level of development in most areas of high skill, it takes real focus to continue to improve those skills.
@AHF Seeing as I have several dual class characters who I roleplayed as much as I am able, I hardly think I have something against them.
This was relevant to the topic of explaining the presence of some kits in BG1. Feel free to have your own interpretation but don't pigeonhole me into a dual class hating person because I happen to own an opinion on the matter of prior experience in Candlekeep. O.O Which isn't even relevant to the matter of Biographies and Kits.
My apologies for putting those words in your mouth. I wasn't really trying to slam you as a "hater" or anything so much as saying that I couldn't understand how your version of a human's ability to learn would allow for dual classing 2 weeks out of Candlekeep or 20 years out of it.
I find the idea that humans can only learn about one area to be unnecessarily restrictive and unrealistic. Once you are over the idea that a human can't learn about multiple subjects, it is not hard to put together a narrative where someone in one class has built up a basis of knowledge sufficient to permit the leap to another class in which that person has phenomenal natural aptitude.
So no offense was intended. On the other hand, we are both presenting our points of view. No need to take it personal. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean that I am attacking you. Nor that you 'Have' to get my point of view, merely that I don't think you understood what I was saying based on your responses. Nuff said.
As far as your perception of the way things are related to zero exp, I couldn't disagree with you more. I always envisioned "Pre" level 1 in any class much like the Magician's apprentice. You get plenty (some might say to much) experience doing things relevant to your class, you just haven't graduated yet. Imagine the first level of a 'Class' equivalent to getting a 4 year degree. You can get the foundations of several classes while in college, but you only graduate with one degree. then picking up a second is merely a function of filling out the classes you need to qualify. I know that my personal College experience left me a broad base of things that i could jump off at.
I absolutely believe that some foundation in a given class is necessary. Where I disagree with you is that the Charname in my view 'might' have the relevant foundation received while they were in Candlekeep even if they left as only one class. Just because they trained as a fighter, there is nothing to suggest that they couldn't have done some other training 'As well'. that was the sum of my point.
Regarding the reasons why Dual class vs. Multi-class, there are a whole host of different theories. One is as you indicate, that humans (and half-elves in some versions of DnD) can only focus on one class at a time. Another is that longer lived races take a lot more time to get the basics but they are blended. Still another is that, because humans are so short lived, they have learned to focus in ways that other races haven't. Personally, I think that Gary and Frank and the rest simply wanted a way to differentiate Humans from everyone else in order to make it a more human-centric world. And there is evidence to support this point of view.
The point is that there are a lot of different theories out there. No one is necessarily 'The Truth'.
In real life, to what range could we change professions?
I'm an artist - I draw, paint, know about history of art . I could only change my profession and become an athlete if I had practiced it along the years.
However, if I start now and practice a lot, considering I have high attributes (str, dex, con...) , I could learn a thing or two and even work with something similar.
My guess is that, in real life, you can actually learn and become a professional at stuff you had never done before, but it takes double effort and sensibility.
In real life, to what range could we change professions?
I'm an artist - I draw, paint, know about history of art . I could only change my profession and become an athlete if I had practiced it along the years.
However, if I start now and practice a lot, considering I have high attributes (str, dex, con...) , I could learn a thing or two and even work with something similar.
My guess is that, in real life, you can actually learn and become a professional at stuff you had never done before, but it takes double effort and sensibility.
The athlete one is a tough one because of the physical training and skill base you need and the fact that there is a limited window in terms of age for a lot of athletes (look at the ages of NFL running backs, for example, or the ages of the world's best gymnists). [Golf's senior tour is one example of a professional league where there are a good % that didn't compete professionally until they left their 'day job' careers somewhere later in life.]
Jumping from art into a lot of other areas, however, probably puts you at equal training with people coming out of college with no real life working experience unless there is an area that requires a particular expertise (accounting, hard science, etc.). For most jobs coming straight out of school without working experience, there is a big 'on-the-job' learning curve.
I didn't mean to complain about the game, I love as much as anybody here. It's just a remark on something I find silly, or even hilarious at times. This game, or any game, is naturally unrealistic. As someone mentioned, the whole experience thing is strange, as is any game mechanic.
I suppose the explanation the charname is just un unpolished kid, dreaming or planning for some proffession but lacking any experience or real skill is the most realistic one. I guess he/she must have some training though, as a mage hardly can cast spell just by wanting to or by just reading books.
@AHF, in my view, being 1st level in any profession doesn't necessarily mean that you are top ranked professional, merely that you have the starting skills to compete. Many a 1st level wouldn't be fit to wipe the sweat of an Olympic athlete. I would judge a pro football player as being 18th level or higher. 1st level wouldn't even be minor league. Might be a high school coach. LOL.
I agree that the forgetting doesn't make sense from any angle. There is no rationalizing that aspect of the 2nd edition dual classing mechanic.
The fundamental idea of human doing or focusing on different things is not a hard stretch by any means. This underlies multi-classing for other races and dual classing for humans. It isn't a hard think for me to think through on a RP level -- if you ignore the 'forgetting' part of the mechanic.
IIRC, in PnP rules you don't actually "forget" your previous class' abilities at any point; you still have access to those abilities, but if you are relying on them instead of developing your new skills, the DM is supposed to dock you XP (since you aren't actually focusing on your new class). The "inactive class" rule in BG is likely a kludge to enforce that instead of coming up with a complicated system that deducts XP for using your previous class abilities until your new class is higher level.
@AHF, in my view, being 1st level in any profession doesn't necessarily mean that you are top ranked professional, merely that you have the starting skills to compete. Many a 1st level wouldn't be fit to wipe the sweat of an Olympic athlete. I would judge a pro football player as being 18th level or higher. 1st level wouldn't even be minor league. Might be a high school coach. LOL.
I didn't mean to imply than an NFL or olympic athlete is the baseline. I was just pointing out that there are sports where you are simply past your physical peak by your mid-20's and so there is no realistic chance to pick up those games for the first time and be successful...unlike someone who decides at age 35 to go to law school and start practicing. Athletes are a bit different than other professions in terms of their relation to age and every sport is different in terms of those curves.
I agree that the forgetting doesn't make sense from any angle. There is no rationalizing that aspect of the 2nd edition dual classing mechanic.
The fundamental idea of human doing or focusing on different things is not a hard stretch by any means. This underlies multi-classing for other races and dual classing for humans. It isn't a hard think for me to think through on a RP level -- if you ignore the 'forgetting' part of the mechanic.
IIRC, in PnP rules you don't actually "forget" your previous class' abilities at any point; you still have access to those abilities, but if you are relying on them instead of developing your new skills, the DM is supposed to dock you XP (since you aren't actually focusing on your new class). The "inactive class" rule in BG is likely a kludge to enforce that instead of coming up with a complicated system that deducts XP for using your previous class abilities until your new class is higher level.
I should have said no rationalizing that aspect of the BG dual classing mechanic!
The longer life span of non-humans would make a lot more sense for dual classing. Someone who lives very long simply has more time to get bored with a class/occupation or reach a point where they think they know all there is to know, or all they want/need to know. Even if they could, XP-wise, learn more, maybe they don't want to for some reason. A mage who realizes he plays with forces no-one should try to control. A fighter who gets tired of killing and wants to be a healer to make up for his past. Those are insights most people get later in life. For humans, it might be too late at that point and they just retire from adventuring. Elves, on the other hand, mature mentally like humans, so they'd reach this insight after the same amount of years/decades - but they are still young enough to "start all over". The "not wanting" to learn more would also explain the temporary loss of abilities - they try to put their past behind them and focus on their "new" life. After a while, they realize that not everything was that bad and make use of their previous skills again. From this rp angle, dual class makes way more sense for the longer lived races, and multi-class would fit humans better, who try to be all they can be in the time they have.
@AHF, in my view, being 1st level in any profession doesn't necessarily mean that you are top ranked professional, merely that you have the starting skills to compete. Many a 1st level wouldn't be fit to wipe the sweat of an Olympic athlete. I would judge a pro football player as being 18th level or higher. 1st level wouldn't even be minor league. Might be a high school coach. LOL.
I didn't mean to imply than an NFL or olympic athlete is the baseline. I was just pointing out that there are sports where you are simply past your physical peak by your mid-20's and so there is no realistic chance to pick up those games for the first time and be successful...unlike someone who decides at age 35 to go to law school and start practicing. Athletes are a bit different than other professions in terms of their relation to age and every sport is different in terms of those curves.
I think this is represented by class/level cap. Basically when you start out adventuring, you should be 'Fresh out of college' and ready to go. This should mean that a dedicated single class can make it to 'The Pros' with no problem. If, on the other hand, you decide to do several different classes you have a harder time getting there and it takes longer.
Now there are some pretty old professional baseball players and there have been a few pro football players that didn't start till they were mid-late 20s, but this is by far the exception rather than the rule.
@AHF, in my view, being 1st level in any profession doesn't necessarily mean that you are top ranked professional, merely that you have the starting skills to compete. Many a 1st level wouldn't be fit to wipe the sweat of an Olympic athlete. I would judge a pro football player as being 18th level or higher. 1st level wouldn't even be minor league. Might be a high school coach. LOL.
I didn't mean to imply than an NFL or olympic athlete is the baseline. I was just pointing out that there are sports where you are simply past your physical peak by your mid-20's and so there is no realistic chance to pick up those games for the first time and be successful...unlike someone who decides at age 35 to go to law school and start practicing. Athletes are a bit different than other professions in terms of their relation to age and every sport is different in terms of those curves.
I think this is represented by class/level cap. Basically when you start out adventuring, you should be 'Fresh out of college' and ready to go. This should mean that a dedicated single class can make it to 'The Pros' with no problem. If, on the other hand, you decide to do several different classes you have a harder time getting there and it takes longer.
Now there are some pretty old professional baseball players and there have been a few pro football players that didn't start till they were mid-late 20s, but this is by far the exception rather than the rule.
This is probably the justification for the high stat requirements for dual classing. All you need is a 9 Str minimum to be a Fighter straight out of "college," but if you want to join the league later in life, you need an uncommonly high degree of talent.
Comments
I kid, even they need training of a sort.
"nor would someone be able to consistently disarm a trap -- or at least attempt to without setting it off" If you get a human or half-orc thief (no bonuses) and you spend all your points in something other than Find Traps, I guarantee you're going to set quite a few traps off. And, to make it more "realistic" (silly word really, since it's a fantasy game
Aside from maybe a few exceptions, most anyone here would be 14-17 range (10 being peasant statistics).
The only thing which Charname posesses is exceptional stats and a few abilities. No experience at all, only theoretical background in whichever class they chose.
And speaking of abilities, I wish Charname had the wonderful peasant ability of Summon Guards. Guess how many assassination attemps that would have fended off even at level 1.
Summon Guards (1 extra use every 5 levels) for Good and Neutral characters
Summon Bodyguards (1 extra use every 5 levels) for Evil characters
and it's triggered automatically if anyone tries to pickpocket you, after they charm you in sight of others, or selects the attack option.
[ upgraded in BG2 to Summon Cowled Wizards on any spell cast in your vicinity. ]
*Charname walks into the Priest's quarters in Candlekeep. Before she can blink, she hears a familiar voice*
'For the glory of Amn!'
*Looking around, she notices a shifty looking man bleeding from his chest. Shrugging, she goes about her business*
But I understand those as "naturally gifted" like a 5 years old who can somehow play Mozart on the piano before learning to write or read. A teacher or mentor can't "train" them to become better because in most cases, the teacher isn't better. It's more "guiding" than "teaching".
Is it too far out of bounds to suppose that as part of the fighter training that character learns a lot about mages and magic so he can understand how to fight against it? He finds this study fascinating and really dives into it (setting himself up as a candidate for future dual classing). After leaving Candlekeep and fighting some battles (perhaps against one or more mages like the one by the Friendly Arm Inn), the Charname has an epiphany that he should join those mages rather than beat them and decides to apply all the studying he did on how magic works to become a mage rather than to simply fight against them. He picks up a couple scrolls he had collected and dedicates himself to a new career in magic.
It is very possible he even has a great mentor to help him along (Xzar).
As for the conversation about 'Forest dweller' type classes, I could read that Charname was cloistered in (and around) Candlekeep all of his/her life. Now this wouldn't necessarily give rise to Barbarian (per say), but it does mean that there is an easy explanation for some of the stranger classes.
I recently played a Half-Orc Fighter/Thief. I took his personality and class as an outgrowth of both his orc nature and his parentage. There are enough 'Cracks' to slip through to flesh out his background to make it work for me. But I do admit that some of the classes would be hard pressed.
But then again, remember that Candlekeep is one of the biggest libraries in all of Faerun and probably has detailed explorations of just about every class available. And I bet quite a lot of colorful people come to visit. Just my two cents.
RP' wise , people dual class at lower levels for two reasons :
1) they suck at their current class, or find no use for it anymore.
2) they have always planned on changing profession.
So , in that case , a "war wizard" may have had martial training first, but he had always studied magical theory . Also, it is unlikely that a DM would let him advance to another class by using a few scrolls only - he needs somebody to mediate his change.
There is also the question of affinity. I am not talking about Sorcerers or Favored Souls, but there have been instances where someone always had an affinity for something but just never realized it. They played around with it as a hobby and then one day said "Why am I an accountant when my real love and passion is for football".
Just saying that no one is committing to you only having trained in one profession in your formative years in Candlekeep. That is a construct of your own design.
If you trained in more than one profession then why aren't you a multi-class? Being a single class assumed you trained in one thing... and the race thing doesn't really float. Humans can't be a multi-class because they can't focus on more than one profession. The other races can. They can study magic, spend time poring over tomes, praying to their deity for guidance and training at the same time.
Humans can't. That's why they give up the option to advance in the first class once they start studying for the second one. They can only do one thing at a time and are forever stuck at that level in their first class. So either they were studying for magic, or they were fighting, or they were picking locks.
I don't think how praying once a day for spells would otherwise stop you from picking up your mace and sparing with your companions to learn to hit (improve your thac0). I mean if you were doing the same thing in Candlekeep: training with the guards for 6 hours and then reading for 2 hours.
This is why I said that you're just a kid with no experience and you probably didn't train much before leaving with Gorion. You have 0 XP and the Gatewarden sends you to learn how to hit things. The guy next to Reevor teaches you how to attack. You spent your time being a kid and dreaming of becoming something. Not actually becoming it. You may be smart or strong or charismatic or extremely agile but you've been mucking around with Imoen. You have the raw potential but none of the real experience.
You aren't getting the point. See again my college example. To translate it into BG terms, a person might start their career learning everything there is to learn about soldiering from Hull but not be very good at it. They may very well complete their training out of some altruistic desire to please Gorion, yet all the while be studying magic on the side. This doesn't mean that they are Multi-class or even Dual class, merely that they have the training and foundation to broaden their horizons once they have the freedom to do so.
I personally can absolutely see someone in Candlekeep being expected to learn to be a wizard. They may study every single day and 'Pass' the tests by the skin of their teeth. They may put in the time but not really be 'In the spirit' of it and all the while staring out the window at the other boys training to be a soldier. They might even spend all of their off hours 'playing' swords with their friends.
To take a different approach, thievery might very well be an extension of just about any class. You are a bit better at sneaking around to get what you want instead of the straight fight. That doesn't make them a fully trained 'Thief', but might very well give them the foundation they need to make the leap.
And Clerics even more so. They might be a VERY devout fighter, praying every night for victory in the battle the next day. And then one day discover that they are a much better cleric than a fighter. That doesn't mean they 'Trained' to be one, but discovered that what they were doing in their off hours actually translates into a profession.
I wrote my own point of view which was that you just spent spent your 'formative years' both reading and watching others fight, not joining in, not casting many spells, not learning 4-5 different weapon styles. That's where the 0 experience comes from. When Charname is faced with the harsh reality outside of Candlekeep he has to use his natural abilities. So he gets a bit more experience as a mage... Where he first knew how to shield himself and maybe put Imoen to sleep, now he can also appear frightening or create a magical armor ...but he finds he can't focus on casting more than 3-4 spells every day.. and he's frustrated, impatient. He gives up, picks up a halberd, and cleaves the nearest hobgoblin in half. Occasionally he might look at his mage companions with longing, but reminds himself that it wasn't for him, not really. So nothing more comes of it. He might be a good chess player, an excellent strategist, a good puzzle solver, but never a good mage.
This is my personal explanation for any kit and any dual class. Since you yourself have an explanation for Charname's background I hardly see a need to try and convince me of your reasoning. We each explain things the way we want. The OP thought the pre-defined explanations/character bios 'silly'. Might want to convince him
This is your read on things, not the game's or anyone elses. It sounds like you just don't like dual classing because the narrative that you list above seems to preclude any human from dual classing because they can only learn about one thing and one thing only. This narrative strikes me as odd as a human being who when I was the age of Charname spent time studying and performing music, playing sports, majoring in science, minoring in a humanities area and volunteering in a legal job.
It seems much more logical to me to think that a human being can educate themselves about multiple areas and that special ones (who are particularly gifted in a given field) can move from one class to another. There are a hundred different variations on this theme that can justify dual classing from a role playing perspective and innumerable real life examples of the same (Leonardo Da Vinci for multiple areas, Steve Young for moving from HOF Quarterback to Lawyer/Venture Capitalist).
The actual game mechanic is odd (why would you instantly forget the skills from the other class?) but the idea of a human changing fields from a role playing perspective is not a big stretch.
One of the few "natural" cases is Xzar becoming a cleric. It's still a casting class, and necromancy already deals with death and afterlife, so exploring these things from a different, divine angle makes a lot sense. Especially because the cleric spells can still fit in the necromancy school (Raise Dead, Turn Undead - evil clerics don't make them explode or go away, they actually turn them friendly - that alone is a perfect fit).
"You have 0 xp in whatever class you chose. That means that you didn't even kill a rat using your chosen class. You're just a kid who lived a cloistered life and, while reading in the library or watching the guards train, you thought 'I bet being a bounty hunter would be so awesome, I could pretend Reevor's rats are people with a bounty on their head... hmm I should go talk to Reevor.' So now you're a 'mighty' barbarian running away from kobolds or a terrifying necromancer hitching your robes to your knees so you can run away from the big bad gibberling while pelting him with pebbles." (post on the first page)
"I wrote my own point of view which was that you just spent spent your 'formative years' both reading and watching others fight, not joining in, not casting many spells, not learning 4-5 different weapon styles. That's where the 0 experience comes from. [...] This is my personal explanation for any kit and any dual class. Since you yourself have an explanation for Charname's background I hardly see a need to try and convince me of your reasoning. We each explain things the way we want. " (post above yours)
This was relevant to the topic of explaining the presence of some kits in BG1. Feel free to have your own interpretation but don't pigeonhole me into a dual class hating person because I happen to own an opinion on the matter of prior experience in Candlekeep. O.O Which isn't even relevant to the matter of Biographies and Kits.
I agree that the forgetting doesn't make sense from any angle. There is no rationalizing that aspect of the 2nd edition dual classing mechanic.
The fundamental idea of human doing or focusing on different things is not a hard stretch by any means. This underlies multi-classing for other races and dual classing for humans. It isn't a hard think for me to think through on a RP level -- if you ignore the 'forgetting' part of the mechanic.
The lack of improvment actually does make sense to me, though. Think about it in terms of sports or music if you have done either competitively. If you think about the level of training you put in when you were really focused on this and then your level of aptitude after years of doing it only recreationally you will probably see that you regressed from your competitive peak or at best simply maintained what you had. Once you hit a certain level of development in most areas of high skill, it takes real focus to continue to improve those skills.
My apologies for putting those words in your mouth. I wasn't really trying to slam you as a "hater" or anything so much as saying that I couldn't understand how your version of a human's ability to learn would allow for dual classing 2 weeks out of Candlekeep or 20 years out of it.
I find the idea that humans can only learn about one area to be unnecessarily restrictive and unrealistic. Once you are over the idea that a human can't learn about multiple subjects, it is not hard to put together a narrative where someone in one class has built up a basis of knowledge sufficient to permit the leap to another class in which that person has phenomenal natural aptitude.
So no offense was intended. On the other hand, we are both presenting our points of view. No need to take it personal. Just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean that I am attacking you. Nor that you 'Have' to get my point of view, merely that I don't think you understood what I was saying based on your responses. Nuff said.
As far as your perception of the way things are related to zero exp, I couldn't disagree with you more. I always envisioned "Pre" level 1 in any class much like the Magician's apprentice. You get plenty (some might say to much) experience doing things relevant to your class, you just haven't graduated yet. Imagine the first level of a 'Class' equivalent to getting a 4 year degree. You can get the foundations of several classes while in college, but you only graduate with one degree. then picking up a second is merely a function of filling out the classes you need to qualify. I know that my personal College experience left me a broad base of things that i could jump off at.
I absolutely believe that some foundation in a given class is necessary. Where I disagree with you is that the Charname in my view 'might' have the relevant foundation received while they were in Candlekeep even if they left as only one class. Just because they trained as a fighter, there is nothing to suggest that they couldn't have done some other training 'As well'. that was the sum of my point.
Regarding the reasons why Dual class vs. Multi-class, there are a whole host of different theories. One is as you indicate, that humans (and half-elves in some versions of DnD) can only focus on one class at a time. Another is that longer lived races take a lot more time to get the basics but they are blended. Still another is that, because humans are so short lived, they have learned to focus in ways that other races haven't. Personally, I think that Gary and Frank and the rest simply wanted a way to differentiate Humans from everyone else in order to make it a more human-centric world. And there is evidence to support this point of view.
The point is that there are a lot of different theories out there. No one is necessarily 'The Truth'.
I'm an artist - I draw, paint, know about history of art . I could only change my profession and become an athlete if I had practiced it along the years.
However, if I start now and practice a lot, considering I have high attributes (str, dex, con...) , I could learn a thing or two and even work with something similar.
My guess is that, in real life, you can actually learn and become a professional at stuff you had never done before, but it takes double effort and sensibility.
Jumping from art into a lot of other areas, however, probably puts you at equal training with people coming out of college with no real life working experience unless there is an area that requires a particular expertise (accounting, hard science, etc.). For most jobs coming straight out of school without working experience, there is a big 'on-the-job' learning curve.
I suppose the explanation the charname is just un unpolished kid, dreaming or planning for some proffession but lacking any experience or real skill is the most realistic one. I guess he/she must have some training though, as a mage hardly can cast spell just by wanting to or by just reading books.
The "not wanting" to learn more would also explain the temporary loss of abilities - they try to put their past behind them and focus on their "new" life. After a while, they realize that not everything was that bad and make use of their previous skills again.
From this rp angle, dual class makes way more sense for the longer lived races, and multi-class would fit humans better, who try to be all they can be in the time they have.
Now there are some pretty old professional baseball players and there have been a few pro football players that didn't start till they were mid-late 20s, but this is by far the exception rather than the rule.