Experience from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps in BG2:EE
JuliusBorisov
Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
I know it's too early to talk about, but I think it is worth discussing.
In BG:EE we get small amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps and I like it.
In the next part of the game XP from everything comes in thousands rather then dozens.
The vanilla BG2 gives you thousands of XP for learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps and I find it quite exploitable.
I suggest keeping the XP system from BG:EE in the next part of the game.
Although it doesn't follow the vanilla BG2 it would prevent fast levelling up. I mean, if you open 100 locks in BG2 you'd get XP enough for XP cap in BG:EE.
At least it would prevent gaining XP from learning - deleting - learning again - spells.
It is also noteworthy that in BG Trilogy the system of gaining small amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps is active during the whole game and it doesn't break anything.
Maybe the best solution will be to have a configurable option on this subject in the menu where it could be set what amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps you gain.
In BG:EE we get small amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps and I like it.
In the next part of the game XP from everything comes in thousands rather then dozens.
The vanilla BG2 gives you thousands of XP for learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps and I find it quite exploitable.
I suggest keeping the XP system from BG:EE in the next part of the game.
Although it doesn't follow the vanilla BG2 it would prevent fast levelling up. I mean, if you open 100 locks in BG2 you'd get XP enough for XP cap in BG:EE.
At least it would prevent gaining XP from learning - deleting - learning again - spells.
It is also noteworthy that in BG Trilogy the system of gaining small amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps is active during the whole game and it doesn't break anything.
Maybe the best solution will be to have a configurable option on this subject in the menu where it could be set what amount of XP from learning spells and opening locks/disarming traps you gain.
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Comments
However, leaving it as is, is more than suitable for me. If someone wants to exploit the write/erase spell "feature" I am all for it. Doesn't ruin my game one bit. Changing it could ruin someone else's though.
However , I do use mods that decrease experience (ding0's experience fixer), because I like doing all quests from chapter 2 and once you're level 12+ they become too easy .
Check this out:
Learning a 6th level spell = killing three umber hulks = picking twelve easy locks
In PnP it is much harder to find a 6th level spell, and mages/thieves do get most of their xp from learning class related stuff.
On the other hand, scrolls in particular do silly things when combined with dual-classing. You can dual to mage, for example, and reach level 4 or 5 immediately just by batch-scribing all the scrolls you have saved up.
While that could indeed be considered "exploiting", keep in mind that enemies also give vastly more XP in BG2. There are many easily killed mobs that give upwards of 10.000xp per kill.
In fact, I find the amount of XP from monster kills far more unbalanced; not "overpowered" mind you, just unbalanced. Just go to the Windspear Hills, for example. It's riddled with Orcs and Hobgoblins that are not even worth 100xp each. If you need 250.000xp for a level (as a fighter does after level 9), you can imagine how pointless it is to plow through those enemies.
I would suggest taking a good look at the entire XP system and its associated values, and adjust in several places. Maybe scroll XP could scale with the mage's level? Say 10xp per spell level for mage level 1-5, 100xp for 5-10, and the old 1.000xp beyond that, or something. That should curb the dual-class exploits, while preserving the bonus of scribing scrolls later on.
Something similar could be done with traps and locks I suppose, but those are much harder to "exploit" since you can't exactly carry bags full of locks around to pick at your leisure.
A thief duals to a mage. The situation takes place in BG2. As a result a mage to be able to cast should learn some spells. He begins this procedure. All numbers are exemplary.
7 lvl 1 spells x 1000 XP
6 lvl 2 spells x 2000 XP
5 lvl 3 spells x 3000 XP
5 lvl 4 spells x 4000 XP
4 lvl 5 spells x 5000 XP
3 lvl 6 spells x 6000 XP
Total: 92 000 XP - he reaches the 8th level in one minute!
The same character in BG:EE needs many hours of gameplay to reach that level.
I find this situation not optimal at all.
Yes, there're enemies that give 10.000 XP but there're at least 30 locks and traps in the very first dungeon that give so much amount of XP you won't get from killing all the sirens on the shore in BG1.
And I'm not talking about exploiting - all the things mentioned above are normal parts of the gameplay. They just seem strange after the first part of the game.
Regarding your calculation: keep in mind that this only works the way you stated if you are a solo character. Otherwise the XP gets divided among party members, which while still a nice boost, will not get you to that high a level (lvl 4 with full party of six). Of course, you can always just kick out everyone before you scribe scrolls but if you start doing things like that you might as well SK in the XP and save going through all the motions...
It's true that you gain a lot more XP in SoA than you did before. But XP are not on a linear scale (up to a certain point anyway); you NEED more XP, or you'd level so much more slowly it'd take a lot of fun out of it. There are some RP concerns with this, naturally, but as so often it's a trade-off you have to make to keep the game progression enjoyable.
Or we could get even more sophisticated and have every character gain experience in different categories. They could have one category for hitting enemies, and the way to get more experience to Thaco would be from smacking things. And you could get experience to add to hit points by getting hurt. Of course fighters are supposed to be better at fighting than mages so their hit points would go up quicker for the same experience. But fighters can't pick locks so they wouldn't get any experience to that category at all. And of course this is all very unwieldy...
A big part of what works so well with AD&D is its simplicity. It is an abstraction that the more basic levels come fairly quickly as basic skills are learned. But things get a lot harder, and require bigger challenges to get to more advanced skills. There are going to be shortcomings and potential exploits in such a simplified system. A big one is just taking a rookie character along with a more experienced party. We can rationalize it some by pointing out that the rookie is facing bigger challenges, and learning from more experienced compatriots than most rookies do. Another exploit is just that some things that are balanced a particular way for higher level characters present problems with lower levels. Yet that very "exploit" is the thing that makes dual class characters workable and fun. When the party is ninth level and your fighter duals to Mage, you can count on getting those basic levels caught up quite quickly. But the final few levels (to unlock fighter) will still take a fair amount of time. And I think that pacing issue matters far more than any specifics of exactly where the experience is coming from.
If we were starting over (and of course this is true in my own PNP game I run) I would award a majority of experience from quests and missions completed (or stages completed). Equal shares from party combats would be the second biggest source. Then individual awards based on specific actions would be awarded to specific characters, and yeah that means not everyone gains experience completely equally when I'm running a game.
But the BG system is even simpler than that. It's also fair and pretty traditional. It's not broke, I wouldn't fix it.
That said, I wouldn't object to a fix to the whole scribe > erase > rescribe exploit. Of course, I wouldn't really complain if they didn't either. I don't use it, but it doesn't really impact me at all if others do. All implementing this "fix" would do is make me reconsider dual-classing.
Either way there'll no doubt be a mod for it anyway.