What's with that premise, anyway? Why would you claim people hate ToB, is there anything to substantiate that? I like ToB, it has great, challenging fights.
So do I. I think that it is a tremendous contribution to the saga - but I have seen many members say nasty stuff about the expansion , as if it were commom reason to believe it's bad.
I think people generally really like ToB. The expectations were just different back when it was released. Some were hoping on a full-fledged third part of a Baldur's Gate trilogy. Instead, they received a sizeable expansion pack. Nowadays though, it seems to have a good reputation.
I don't hate it, I enjoyed what little there was but I do kind of think that since it was the climax it should of been alot bigger. Some people say it was as big as Shadows of Amn, which is bullshit. Not even the plausible kind of bullshit that has points for both sides either, you can outright demonstrate that it was nowhere near the size of Shadows of Amn through sheer number and size of areas, quests and plot. Considering how much of a big deal the climax was and how many new toys there were to play with this seems like a pretty huge mistake, one that wouldn't be easy to fix either. Maybe thats why the release is taking so long, maybe they're trying to rectify it through alot more areas and quests in the expansion... or maybe not. It seems rather unlikely.
The general criticism about ToB is just how linear it is. You just carrying on from one area to the next without really venturing off to side adventures. BG2 was fairly linear but there was enough diversions and optional quests to make it feel less so. In ToB there is no point in going back to previous areas and sometimes you are forbidden to, it feels more like an exercise in power leveling than in the spirit of exploration that BG1 and BG2 championed.
If Overhaul was to add new optional sidequests and areas, even another town to rival Saradush aka Castle Tethyr or Darromar then it wouldn't be so linear.
I think ToB bit off a little too much, since it is after all just an expansion. It's more than twice the expansion ToTSC was but half the game BG1 or BG2 was. It really should have been developed a little further into its' own standalone entry in the series than just being an expansion. My dream would be for Overhaul to take Throne of Bhaal and turn it into Baldur's Gate 3 but that's never going to happen.
Well from some of the things I've heard the reason why ToB falls in between an expansion and a game like that was is was originally intended to be BG III... but then for one reason or another they had to cut it back to an expansion pack.
I think it's an expectations issue. People still talk about it as a third instalment (for example, the Baldur's Gate Trilogy mod), which doesn't help matters. I guess people just view it as a linear, underwhelming conclusion to an epic series. Ascension made it a lot better, but it was really an issue of Bioware having to turn it into an expansion due to not being able to renew their 2nd edition license with WotC, and thus did not have the expected time to make it into BGIII.
There is a story element of ToB that I didn't like. I spotted that a certain character was an enemy streight away, but I wasn't given the option for CHARNAME to spot that and act upon it. I.e. I felt like I was being forced to play my character as an idiot.
I don't hate Throne of Bhaal, but neither do I like it. Nowadays I usually just skip it and let my confrontation with Irenicus be the final part of my character's story. The reasons I'm not particularly fond of ToB are: its linear nature, the lack of an exploration element, and its exclusive focus on combat. In my opinion, all of the previous installments of the BG series did pretty much everything better. ToB is still a decent game, but nowhere near the superb quality of BG1 and BG2 in my opinion.
Although I must say, I think the Watcher's Keep is an excellent dungeon which I very much enjoy raiding.
I don't hate TOB but I have not played it much mostly becuase I prefer lower level gameplay - especially under D&D type rules - for me once you get through the mid teen levels characters get so powerful it's much more difficult to come up with any sort of meaningful challenges for them and the whole system just gets a very "over the top" feeling for me.
I had the same issues for late game BG2 - BG1 has always been my favorite part of the series and the one I played most and I can't count the number of BG2 games I abandoned at some point after doing most of the chap 2 content - usually before heading off to rescue Imoen.
For me, the TOB storyline is completely boring and not involving. Battling gods? Who cares? Slaughtering legions of monsters, dragons, undead ect... what is the point? It's an exercise in monotony.
However, I did like the TOB new features such as class improvements (wild mage), and other fixes to the game engine. Watchers keep was also cool. Perhaps the 'EE' can give us a new tower or mega-dungeon....one can hope.
I don't hate ToB, and I certainly like the game engine!
But I do find it a little boring for a couple reasons, partly being too linear. But the biggest thing is just that it's way too high level. Even the end of SoA gets a little too "epic" for my taste. But ToB with all the HLAs and Battle of the Gods stuff is just not very interesting to me.
Maybe the problem people have is that they treat ToB as BG3 instead of the last chapters of BG2. If you think about it, it's not surprising that towards the end of the story, things are a little bit more focused. After all, the stakes are pretty high, especially being a Bhaalspawn yourself. Would you get sidetracked if you could see godhood waiting on the horizon?
In fact, I think that the linearity does a lot to convey the sense of pressure and urgency that is a natural consequence of Alaundo's Prophecy unfolding. War is breaking out, and you are in the middle of it, and I think ToB does a decent job of setting an appropriate atmosphere.
That being said, it's not without flaws to be sure. Some things are just a bit too convenient, or too shallow and not fleshed out enough. Sendai's Enclave in particular seems like a bit of a rush-job, not to mention loaded with incredibly cheesy dialogue... But then there's also locations like Amkethran and Saradush, both of which I find quite adequately done.
Ascension of course helps a lot in alleviating some of the more glaring problems. Vanilla ToB is simply not epic enough to be a worthy ending to the saga. It may be a stretch, but I pray to Bhaal that BG2:EE manages to somehow incorporate Ascension and give one of the most epic games ever made the epic ending it deserves.
As many have said, the linearity and the ridiculous levels and powers you achieve are major turn offs for me. Even the bright spot of ToB, Watcher's Keep, pales in comparison to Durlag's Tower for me. Fighting the Demon Knight (w/o using the mirror) at level 6-7 was much more of an epic struggle than fighting Demogorgon at level 25. Not to mention the fact that literally every step in Durlag's can be death for the entire party, whereas in Watcher's Keep your mage can probably eat two fireball traps and come out okay.
WK was still probably one of the best dungeons I've seen in a computer RPG, but man does Durlag's have that frightful and deadly atmosphere I love.
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE A PART OF THE BG SERIES?
ToB is EPIC ! How can you complain that it is EPIC, have you not nutured your player character through most of the game to MAKE HIM EPIC! WHY DO YOU EVEN PLAY!
THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO DON'T LIKE A PART OF THE BG SERIES?
ToB is EPIC ! How can you complain that it is EPIC, have you not nutured your player character through most of the game to MAKE HIM EPIC! WHY DO YOU EVEN PLAY!
LETS JUST REMOVE XP PART OF THE GAME ENTIRELY!
RARRRRGH!
I don't mean to be a troll but this attitude is precisely the reason a lot of people don't like it.
@Ajwz What is your solution to the end of the series then, apart from the obvious... Use the ascension mod which is discussed in MICROSCOPIC detail elsewhere?
EDIT: Apologies for my outburst earlier, but I seem to react to the terms like hate and flaw. If you dislike it so much that you HATE IT. Don't play IT. I promise I will not force you. Just don't presume that others will HATE IT
It is partly not the developers fault, since D&D 2e really doesn't work well at all at these levels. But since bg isn't pnp, they could have improved on it significantly.
My main objection however, is the story, which is terrible.
I don't hate it, and I like the gameplay in it allowing me to explore the highest level abilities of each class. Some of the encounters are quite memorable.
But to me, it plays like an Icewind Dale game. D&D in its gameplay, but not as substantial an experience as the other Baldur's Gate games. I happen to love the IWD series, which makes ToB fun for me, but the IWD games are widely considered inferior to the BG series by people who have played both, and they were clearly hoping for something akin to BG3 when ToB first came out.
As I said above, I don't hate ToB, it is a well produced and worthy conclusion to the Bhaalspawn saga. I have finished it probably ten times (compared to twenty for BG1 and maybe twelve for SoA)
BUT, I'm not that into the high level stuff. My favorite part of the game, BY FAR, is getting started. I love taking a rookie character out of Candlekeep and getting him equipped, and forming a party, and gaining those first few levels. I often get more excited about starting a new party whenever current one starts to reach sixth level or so. I love starting over in SoA too. I like Irenecus' dungeon and Waukeen's Promenade and the Copper Coronet. Really, I like the whole game, but I LOVE starting a new party.
My guess? It's always been perceived as a game unto itself (ie: the third chapter in the "Baldur's Gate Trilogy") when it's just an expansion pack to BG2. And when people get to ToB after that huge, sprawling experience in Amn, they're surprised that it's just a few linear chapters wrapping up the Bhaalspawn storyline (which BG2 did next-to-nothing with).
I love it. It is epic. The protagonist becomes very powerful and that is perfectly justified. I think people don't like it because they want to continue adventuring, be part of intrigues, complete small quests and task and travel. But when you become a God these things don't matter that much, if at all. No matter if you will let the essence of Bhaal go away or you will embrace it.
DJKajuru
Member Posts: 3,300
Comments
Some people say it was as big as Shadows of Amn, which is bullshit. Not even the plausible kind of bullshit that has points for both sides either, you can outright demonstrate that it was nowhere near the size of Shadows of Amn through sheer number and size of areas, quests and plot.
Considering how much of a big deal the climax was and how many new toys there were to play with this seems like a pretty huge mistake, one that wouldn't be easy to fix either. Maybe thats why the release is taking so long, maybe they're trying to rectify it through alot more areas and quests in the expansion... or maybe not.
It seems rather unlikely.
If Overhaul was to add new optional sidequests and areas, even another town to rival Saradush aka Castle Tethyr or Darromar then it wouldn't be so linear.
I think ToB bit off a little too much, since it is after all just an expansion. It's more than twice the expansion ToTSC was but half the game BG1 or BG2 was. It really should have been developed a little further into its' own standalone entry in the series than just being an expansion. My dream would be for Overhaul to take Throne of Bhaal and turn it into Baldur's Gate 3 but that's never going to happen.
Although I must say, I think the Watcher's Keep is an excellent dungeon which I very much enjoy raiding.
I had the same issues for late game BG2 - BG1 has always been my favorite part of the series and the one I played most and I can't count the number of BG2 games I abandoned at some point after doing most of the chap 2 content - usually before heading off to rescue Imoen.
However, I did like the TOB new features such as class improvements (wild mage), and other fixes to the game engine. Watchers keep was also cool. Perhaps the 'EE' can give us a new tower or mega-dungeon....one can hope.
But I do find it a little boring for a couple reasons, partly being too linear. But the biggest thing is just that it's way too high level. Even the end of SoA gets a little too "epic" for my taste. But ToB with all the HLAs and Battle of the Gods stuff is just not very interesting to me.
In fact, I think that the linearity does a lot to convey the sense of pressure and urgency that is a natural consequence of Alaundo's Prophecy unfolding. War is breaking out, and you are in the middle of it, and I think ToB does a decent job of setting an appropriate atmosphere.
That being said, it's not without flaws to be sure. Some things are just a bit too convenient, or too shallow and not fleshed out enough. Sendai's Enclave in particular seems like a bit of a rush-job, not to mention loaded with incredibly cheesy dialogue... But then there's also locations like Amkethran and Saradush, both of which I find quite adequately done.
Ascension of course helps a lot in alleviating some of the more glaring problems. Vanilla ToB is simply not epic enough to be a worthy ending to the saga. It may be a stretch, but I pray to Bhaal that BG2:EE manages to somehow incorporate Ascension and give one of the most epic games ever made the epic ending it deserves.
It's the Matrix 3 of RPGs.
WK was still probably one of the best dungeons I've seen in a computer RPG, but man does Durlag's have that frightful and deadly atmosphere I love.
ToB is EPIC ! How can you complain that it is EPIC, have you not nutured your player character through most of the game to MAKE HIM EPIC! WHY DO YOU EVEN PLAY!
LETS JUST REMOVE XP PART OF THE GAME ENTIRELY!
RARRRRGH!
...
I need to sit down...
Hang on. I already am...
I'll go under the table then...
@Ajwz What is your solution to the end of the series then, apart from the obvious... Use the ascension mod which is discussed in MICROSCOPIC detail elsewhere?
EDIT: Apologies for my outburst earlier, but I seem to react to the terms like hate and flaw. If you dislike it so much that you HATE IT. Don't play IT. I promise I will not force you. Just don't presume that others will HATE IT
It is partly not the developers fault, since D&D 2e really doesn't work well at all at these levels. But since bg isn't pnp, they could have improved on it significantly.
My main objection however, is the story, which is terrible.
I've talked about my reasons a long time ago on these forums, so I'll not bring it up again here: Here's my more detailed explanation if you are interested:
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/2256/remove-tob-from-bg2ee
You'll be pleased to know that not many people agreed with me.
Some were a little drastic...
But to me, it plays like an Icewind Dale game. D&D in its gameplay, but not as substantial an experience as the other Baldur's Gate games. I happen to love the IWD series, which makes ToB fun for me, but the IWD games are widely considered inferior to the BG series by people who have played both, and they were clearly hoping for something akin to BG3 when ToB first came out.
BUT, I'm not that into the high level stuff. My favorite part of the game, BY FAR, is getting started. I love taking a rookie character out of Candlekeep and getting him equipped, and forming a party, and gaining those first few levels. I often get more excited about starting a new party whenever current one starts to reach sixth level or so.
I love starting over in SoA too. I like Irenecus' dungeon and Waukeen's Promenade and the Copper Coronet. Really, I like the whole game, but I LOVE starting a new party.