People doesn't hate ToB, people only got disappointed with it.
The project was released with lack of content to give a quickly end to the saga, that was pretty clear at every step, the freedom of moving through the map was cut to an linear sequence on the adventure, what cut deep one of the game more teasing aspects, the freedom to do most of the things in the order you want.
The main antagonist was an incredible stupid project anyway, from the very start of the game you could perceive his/her manipulations, and the game make him appear as the Maquiavel of Forgotten Realms, that took a lot of credit from the game.
If they enhance ToB in BG 2 EE, they will have to double (or triple) the content at least, and if they got proper permission to remake/change the main antagonist of ToB, all the better.
ToB provided awesome ending for the story. Should be noted I use word " ending" in most literal fashion imeagineable;cutscenes and epilogues following final battle felt very powerful, classy and emotional. Story itself was frustrating. You spend entire game playing fetch for an entirely unlikeable antagonist.
Main antagonist should have been somewhere inside PCs head I says.
I just didn't like ToB not because of the plot being too linear, though it was, but because if you are a single-class character your class doesn't generally change much during the ToB levels. Other than getting HLA's that is (monk and druids being some exceptions to this I think). It would be nice if there were more class specific abilities given post ToB level experience.
That and I never really felt compelled by the storyline.
The story isn't that great, the areas are small and uninteresting, quests aren't that great either, it just seemed to be rushed to me. I wish they did an awesome add-on like BG's Tales of the Sword Coast. Durlag's Tower was the best and that is saying a lot because I hate puzzles in my games.
I like ToB because it's an epic conclusion of the BG series. Sure, it's not as big or quest riddled as previous games, but you gotta understand that it's an addon not a full game. For an addon ToB was very well done and wrapped up everything nicely. I don't really understand the nerdrage about the high levels - from purely gameplay perspective it was quite fun and satisfying to finally play as a high level character, not to mention it was fitting to the plot. I didn't care how well transitory edition epic feats were implemented back when I first played ToB and I don't care about it now - it was and still is just simple fun.
Also, it can be very amusing to play through SoA with a maxed ToB character. I personally love to solo Iranicus with a maxed mage. Bloody epic magic fight!
@Bercon: You're missing the point somewhat. By ToB, war is kicking off everywhere because of the five. They are causing so much destruction, that anyone who isn't on their side is going to be terrified and hateful of any Bhaalspawn anywhere, regardless of whether they're trying to help or not. As the Tethyrian army that intercepts you after leaving Saradush proves, there is no time to sort out the good from the bad, and frankly, why should they take the risk? Your half-brothers and sisters are burning everything in their path, and all anyone knows of the prophecy is "chaos shall be sown from their passage". It's only later that Solar tells you, the prophecy is what will happen if you fail.
The Solar did indeed make no sense. Some heavenly tart is not going to preside over the remains of a strongly evil deity, nor does it have the power to make you a god, nor would it allow you to ascend as a god of murder. A lawful neutral creature, maybe. But not the epitome of Lawful Good and enemy of all that Bhaal stands for.
The Solar did indeed make no sense. Some heavenly tart is not going to preside over the remains of a strongly evil deity, nor does it have the power to make you a god, nor would it allow you to ascend as a god of murder. A lawful neutral creature, maybe. But not the epitome of Lawful Good and enemy of all that Bhaal stands for.
That's quite lazy it's true.
but their only excuse is that the solar will follow you if you are good (that's what she says).
Since your pocketplane is already in the abyss, Ao may had to "force" the presence of a lawful good entity in these challenges to somehow bring balance.
The Solar doesn't make your character ascend, it's when you receive all the energy previously collected by Amelyssan that you ascend.
I wouldn't have minded ToB so much if it was 'just' a super powerful group of bhaalspawn out to get you just because they saw you as a threat to... to wars they wanna cause or whatever else.
(Weren't there also some unfinished wilderness maps added in ToB? Like the tiny tiny one with floating ghosties?)
I'm... greedy. n.n I wanted more to the series.
With all the bhaalspawn shown at the end of BG1... And knowing how much Bhaal got around with making progeny... (from dragons to dogs???) And knowing how vast the world is... (the few weeks or months from the end of BG1 to the end of BG2, and all other bhaalspawn in the world are dead?!)
... I was hoping for a sequel into new lands. I just did not believe the story could be wrapped up so fast, that's all. Unsatisfying.
If you read the book (I don't blame anyone who didn't) the prologe tells you that all Bhaalspawn were executed for being spawn of an evil god.
@Magnus_Grelich, the other Five managed all gather a large following, why can't you? Nobody said it should be humans fighting on your side, the Realms is filled with powerful creatures who might take your side for whatever reason.
All I'm hearing is excuses and more excuses on why the game MUST be linear. It doesn't, end of story, get over it.
I liked ToB, but it is not as good as BG1 and BG2 plain and simple. Now there is a good chance to remedy that, at least to some degree.
You don't have time for that @Bercon, you line of action was different of your siblings, most part of your life was inside a huge library (Candlekeep), the other part was running for your life from your crazy brother, pursuing a freakling strong mage for "revenge/rescue of a friend" and when that end you have the 5 most powerful Bhaalspawns at your feet trying to kill you.
You don't have time for that @Bercon, you line of action was different of your siblings, most part of your life was inside a huge library (Candlekeep), the other part was running for your life from your crazy brother, pursuing a freakling strong mage for "revenge/rescue of a friend" and when that end you have the 5 most powerful Bhaalspawns at your feet trying to kill you.
What's the rush? War's happening. The others are gathering armies and such. Why can't you start to gather armies your own self? You don't need to rush off and engage them all until you've got your army, do you? It doesn't matter if you are from Candlekeep or whatever. Yaga-Shura probably grew up in the middle of the woods and somehow recruited, trained and convinced an unending army of fire giants to do what he wants.
Actually, even with your life to date, there should be many people who will answer your call. You're either loved or feared by large and powerful parts of Baulder's Gate and Amn. Surely a few Flaming Fists/Shadow Thieves/Radiant Hearts/Cowled Wizards/Trademeet Druids would follow you into battle. Hell, if you took the fighter's stronghold, you have a blood castle to launch your attacks from. A mage has the planner sphere and logically might be able to make golems. Even if you can't match the shear size of the Five's armies, I'd think you could still muster a formidable force.
Actually, even with your life to date, there should be many people who will answer your call. You're either loved or feared by large and powerful parts of Baulder's Gate and Amn. Surely a few Flaming Fists/Shadow Thieves/Radiant Hearts/Cowled Wizards/Trademeet Druids would follow you into battle. Hell, if you took the fighter's stronghold, you have a blood castle to launch your attacks from. A mage has the planner sphere and logically might be able to make golems. Even if you can't match the shear size of the Five's armies, I'd think you could still muster a formidable force.
Yeah good point. Isn't the point of getting a stronghold as a mid level character to use said stronghold for your purposes such as waging war?
Because ToB is jarringly short and linear by comparision - instead of having half a dozen large areas completely unrelated to the quest to explore you rush from one main plot station to the next.
Plus, the finality of the endings will inevitably have upset everyone who had hoped for a different outcome (I.e. everyone) which SoA and BG1 avoided by having leaving charname's fate open.
Actually, even with your life to date, there should be many people who will answer your call. You're either loved or feared by large and powerful parts of Baulder's Gate and Amn. Surely a few Flaming Fists/Shadow Thieves/Radiant Hearts/Cowled Wizards/Trademeet Druids would follow you into battle. Hell, if you took the fighter's stronghold, you have a blood castle to launch your attacks from. A mage has the planner sphere and logically might be able to make golems. Even if you can't match the shear size of the Five's armies, I'd think you could still muster a formidable force.
But you are a formidable force, alone with an maximum of 5 companions, you squash the 5 and their armies alongside an army from Tethyr !
The biggest problem with TOB was obviously that it was literally rushed to be finished. It really should have been a standalone game.
My complaints are the same as every one elses. The high level gameplay got to be a bit much. Certain classes and kits are just basically useless when you approach level 30. Though I do very much like building high level classes and just crushing everyone.
The HLA's I felt were just all wrong. Moves like Greater Whirlwind were cool but I would have liked ones more along the line of UAI and different buffs to your chars, passive ones basically. Not ones I have to spam every single turn.
The magic got to be a bit much. I can't even say it was that hard but it got very annoying having to wait for multiple timestops to finish and having every enemy sequencer themselves with every buff you can imagine.
The weapons and armor got to be way too much also. In the first game I felt so awesome every time I found a identifiable weapon or even a +1 anything. In this game everybody and their mother has a generic +3 or better. Though I understand they'd have to even have a chance against your party.
I also did not like the linearity and lack of exploration. This was a complaint of mine in BG2SOA as well but to a much lesser extent. I loved going from area to area finding mini-quest and just running into strange monsters and people. BG1 was just so big and BG2 and TOB just couldn't compete.
Melissan was not bad, but underwhelming compared to Sarevok and Irenicus.
TOB just became a long gauntlet and I just plain didn't like it too much.
I also have to admit I like the low level play where I can build up from nothing and gradually increase my 6 chars.
Guys, I honestly , really like ToB - I feel it's epic, powerful and provides a beautiful ending.
It could be better, like most expansions, but it does please me.
I like what they do in it, I just don't care for the execution. It was rushed, and as such wasn't balanced properly. That said, the story is a fittingly epic end to the saga, especially the post scripts detailing what happened to everyone. They managed something damn near impossible; write an ending that can be THE END, but also allows the possibility of new adventures. You'll note that, no matter what options you choose, Imoen's, Minsc's, Jaheira's, Sarevok's, and CHARNAME's postscripts all avoid mentioning a final fate
As far as I can tell, there are basically two issues with ToB:
1. It was a rush job, plain and simple. It just didn't feel... As fleshed out as it ought to have been. Ascension is a mod that it's creator, a member of the ToB team, stated is a bit closer to what ToB should have been, given more time and resources.
2. The system is just not built to handle levels that high. Levels end up becoming a bit redundant, and HLAs, while awesome, were horrifically balanced. There's also the whole thing with certain kits being completely invalidated by HLAs (I'm looking at you, Skald).
It's not that ToB was bad so much as that it just didn't really live up to both its potential and the player's expectations.
That being said, it's important to remember that ToB was, in many ways, a very innovative project. RPG expansion packs were fairly rare, and an expansion pack that did what ToB did was more or less unheard of. If they existed at all, expansion packs were like TotSC or Heart of Winter - they added some new sidequests, locations, and items/spells, but that was it. The notion of an expansion pack literally expanding the main game was fairly new and ToB, along with Lord of Destruction, helped to cement it as industry standard.
Comments
The project was released with lack of content to give a quickly end to the saga, that was pretty clear at every step, the freedom of moving through the map was cut to an linear sequence on the adventure, what cut deep one of the game more teasing aspects, the freedom to do most of the things in the order you want.
The main antagonist was an incredible stupid project anyway, from the very start of the game you could perceive his/her manipulations, and the game make him appear as the Maquiavel of Forgotten Realms, that took a lot of credit from the game.
If they enhance ToB in BG 2 EE, they will have to double (or triple) the content at least, and if they got proper permission to remake/change the main antagonist of ToB, all the better.
Main antagonist should have been somewhere inside PCs head I says.
That and I never really felt compelled by the storyline.
A lawful neutral creature, maybe. But not the epitome of Lawful Good and enemy of all that Bhaal stands for.
but their only excuse is that the solar will follow you if you are good (that's what she says).
Since your pocketplane is already in the abyss, Ao may had to "force" the presence of a lawful good entity in these challenges to somehow bring balance.
The Solar doesn't make your character ascend, it's when you receive all the energy previously collected by Amelyssan that you ascend.
It seems a poor storytelling device to have a Solar helping the spawn of an evil god be evil (or good or neutral).
The plots seems to play out regardless of whatever you pick, you are railroaded to a "surprise" betrayal by Mellisan.
HLAs are game bending/breaking and you get one every level and levels come really frequently.
Watchers Keep rocks...
All I'm hearing is excuses and more excuses on why the game MUST be linear. It doesn't, end of story, get over it.
I liked ToB, but it is not as good as BG1 and BG2 plain and simple. Now there is a good chance to remedy that, at least to some degree.
Plus, the finality of the endings will inevitably have upset everyone who had hoped for a different outcome (I.e. everyone) which SoA and BG1 avoided by having leaving charname's fate open.
My complaints are the same as every one elses. The high level gameplay got to be a bit much. Certain classes and kits are just basically useless when you approach level 30. Though I do very much like building high level classes and just crushing everyone.
The HLA's I felt were just all wrong. Moves like Greater Whirlwind were cool but I would have liked ones more along the line of UAI and different buffs to your chars, passive ones basically. Not ones I have to spam every single turn.
The magic got to be a bit much. I can't even say it was that hard but it got very annoying having to wait for multiple timestops to finish and having every enemy sequencer themselves with every buff you can imagine.
The weapons and armor got to be way too much also. In the first game I felt so awesome every time I found a identifiable weapon or even a +1 anything. In this game everybody and their mother has a generic +3 or better. Though I understand they'd have to even have a chance against your party.
I also did not like the linearity and lack of exploration. This was a complaint of mine in BG2SOA as well but to a much lesser extent. I loved going from area to area finding mini-quest and just running into strange monsters and people. BG1 was just so big and BG2 and TOB just couldn't compete.
Melissan was not bad, but underwhelming compared to Sarevok and Irenicus.
TOB just became a long gauntlet and I just plain didn't like it too much.
I also have to admit I like the low level play where I can build up from nothing and gradually increase my 6 chars.
It could be better, like most expansions, but it does please me.
Either that or vastly improve TOB.
1. It was a rush job, plain and simple. It just didn't feel... As fleshed out as it ought to have been. Ascension is a mod that it's creator, a member of the ToB team, stated is a bit closer to what ToB should have been, given more time and resources.
2. The system is just not built to handle levels that high. Levels end up becoming a bit redundant, and HLAs, while awesome, were horrifically balanced. There's also the whole thing with certain kits being completely invalidated by HLAs (I'm looking at you, Skald).
It's not that ToB was bad so much as that it just didn't really live up to both its potential and the player's expectations.
That being said, it's important to remember that ToB was, in many ways, a very innovative project. RPG expansion packs were fairly rare, and an expansion pack that did what ToB did was more or less unheard of. If they existed at all, expansion packs were like TotSC or Heart of Winter - they added some new sidequests, locations, and items/spells, but that was it. The notion of an expansion pack literally expanding the main game was fairly new and ToB, along with Lord of Destruction, helped to cement it as industry standard.