Shadowdancer too OP?

Katermeister

I managed to solo Drizzt at lvl 7 with a SD using the following equipment:

Shadow armor
Longsword +2
Dagger of venom
Gauntlets of weapon expertise
Boots of stealth
Healing potions
Potion of defence
Potion of speed

Difficulty: Easiest!!

Stats: (Elf SD)

Str: 18
Dex: 19
Con: 18 (tome)

Max HP for a lvl 7 thief

Spec:

I put everything in MS
Longsword +
Daggers +
One handed style +

Strategy:

Pop potions
Talk with drizzt
HiS
Backstab
Repeat until he dies

If HP gets low, run away and use healing potions

I tried using the dagger of venom, but he saved the poison every time.


I know this isn't very impressive since difficulty was set to easy, but still i raise the question:

Is the SD to OP?

Fardragon

It's a single player game. There is no "OP". If the game is too easy for you, play a different class.

Currently Shadowdancer is bugged and doing more backstab damage than they should, but they are always going to do well until they run into enemies that can see invisible and are immune to backstab, when they will be stuffed.

Archaos

The Shadowdancer sacrifices skillpoints and pretty much you're forced to focus on the stealth skills in return for it's "OP" ability. I think it's a fair trade.
It might be overpowered but it doesn't come freely.

At least now backstabbing and stealth are pretty viable and fun options. Before you pretty much prayed for the first hit to land and if you failed, you had to use invisibility potions or run away.

FinneousPJ

Nope, what you did didn't affect my enjoyment of the game at all. Carry on.

KingGhidorah

In late BG1, when Shadowdancers get their hide skills up to 100 percent and get a x3 backstab they can be very powerful.
In BG2 with items like the Staff of the Magi and the like the power of HIPS tends to gradually decline though.

JuliusBorisov

I don't think this kit is OP.

Nearly every kit and class (except maybe monks and beastmasters) that doesn't come from original BG1 seems very strong in BG:EE. Take a sorceror for example.

A Shadowdancer is very fun to play. It's exactly the kind of character I always wanted to play in BG. It brings me just a great pleasure to be able to hide while there're monsters seen. It makes all the procedure smooth and cool.

Before a backstabber just neeeded some boots of speed to do nearly the same - he can always run away from a fight before any enemy hits him, hide and come back, repeat... So, bringing an ability to hide while in the fight is not so game-breaking at all.

Moreover, the big penalties to the chance of hiding in the light, a small amount of points available at the start and every level lead to the fact that a Shadowdancer needs many levels to become reliable. I take into account penalties the thieving skills get when hiding in the daylight or lighted areas inside buildings and think only having 300 points is valid.

To have a good chance to hide especially in light takes longer than the end of BG1.

So, this brings a Shadowdancer into BG2:EE already and there his x3 backstab imposes further limitations on his power. It cannot be compared with x3 (x4) backstab of stalkers (because of THACO) or x5 (x7) of thieves (assassins).

Katermeister

Fardragon said:

It's a single player game. There is no "OP". If the game is too easy for you, play a different class.

I agree with you on this.

However, IMHO the backstab multiplier seems irrelevant. DMG is only a matter of time. My point is that at a certain point my success rate at HiS is 95%, and it really doesn't matter if I have to hide 3 or 4 times in order to kill someone.

The only big challanges I've met so far is large numbers of enemies which encircles me in such a manner that I can't backstab. This is mostly annoying and not lethal. The other is enemies never standing still while I'm in stealth. This is also mostly annoying.

So far i haven't encountered anything that isn't immune to backstab. Even undead creatures like ghouls and ghasts can be backstabbed (may be a bug). And somehow I managed to backstab an ooze, even though you can't tell which way is which.

I'm looking forward to Durlag's Tower and the Final battle, maybe those will prove a real challange.

And BG2 will be alot different, with every AI casting True Sight.

FinneousPJ

If you don't like abusing HiPS, don't abuse it. It's not really a problem with the class IMO, there are loads of mechanics in this game you can abuse if you choose to. Have a look at the pickpocket thread for example.

ryuken87

No it isn't OP. If you were playing on core rules and had 'regular' hp rolls Drizzt could probably have killed you in one hit on a critical.

Mordeus

It's probably stronger than most kits but achieving a balance across all 20+ kits is a fairly impossible task. I'm not too crazy about the kit but luckily it's real simple to uninstall kits you find annoying.

Katermeister

ryuken87 said:

No it isn't OP. If you were playing on core rules and had 'regular' hp rolls Drizzt could probably have killed you in one hit on a critical.

I will try this as soon as I'm able

OneAngryMushroom

"Difficulty: Easiest!!"
And that's how you managed to solo him

Oxford_Guy

OneAngryMushroom said:

"Difficulty: Easiest!!"
And that's how you managed to solo him

Quite!

karnor00

Invisibility/stealth are very powerful in BG1 where very few enemies can see through them. They become a lot less useful in BG2 where everyone and their dog can see through invisibility.

Aristillius

Fardragon said:

It's a single player game. There is no "OP". If the game is too easy for you, play a different class.

+1!
Of course *some* balance is nice, but this isnt Starcraft 2! It is also meant to be fun even if you are totally new to the game.

Oxford_Guy

karnor00 said:

Invisibility/stealth are very powerful in BG1 where very few enemies can see through them. They become a lot less useful in BG2 where everyone and their dog can see through invisibility.

I thought innate stealth was not so easy to see through as Invisibility(the spell)? Also doesn't the Cloak of Non-Detection help here?

TJ_Hooker

ryuken87 said:

No it isn't OP. If you were playing on core rules and had 'regular' hp rolls Drizzt could probably have killed you in one hit on a critical.

You can actually re-stealth the instant your backstab connects, meaning that unless you fail your stealth attempt Drizzt will never even get a chance to hit you.

OneAngryMushroom said:

"Difficulty: Easiest!!"
And that's how you managed to solo him

This doesn't actually make as much difference as one might think, due to what I said above. The only difference between easiest, core, and even insane in this situation would have been how much damage Drizzt does per hit. If he can't attack you, the amount of damage he does becomes irrelevant.

hummer010

TJ_Hooker said:

This doesn't actually make as much difference as one might think, due to what I said above. The only difference between easiest, core, and even insane in this situation would have been how much damage Drizzt does per hit.

Not entirely. Easiest also means max hitpoints per level, so on core rules, the SD will likely have fewer hitpoints, and with Drizzt's increased damage, a one shot becomes more likely.

Like you say though, if you successfully hide after every backstab, Drizzt won't hit you at all, and it still becomes irrelevant.

Bercon

There has to be some semblance of balance even in single player games, so there most certainly is such thing is overpowered. I find this argument "But its single player!" extremely stupid and annoying. Could you people please stop using it, when it obviously is not true?

Dee

There should be a cool-down period for stealth, even using HiPS. Is that cool-down not taking place?

In any case, the Shadowdancer's backstab table is currently using the same multipliers as the thief, which isn't what it should be.

April

Easiest is also supposed to give all characters in the players party a +6 luck bonus.

TJ_Hooker

@Aosaw there's currently no cooldown. A little while back I tested it out with a dual-wielding SD9->Fighter13 (with GM, so 4 APR), and as far as I could tell I was able to backstab and re-stealth 4 times a round. The cooldown only kicks in if you fail your stealth attempt.

Dee

That's something we'll have to look at, then. Yes, that would definitely make the Shadowdancer more powerful than is necessary.

blipmusic

Yep, no cool-down currently. NPCs do not even turn around to face you if you're quick enough. They act like that backstab never happened, basically (apart from having lost a huge amount of hp that is...). I've had backstabs miss -> hips, hit -> hips etc in almost infinite chains during night time at the bandit camp.

As long as the stealth check doesn't fail it's been instant and never seems to care about rounds or how many times per round I re-stealth. The backstab multiplier bug is hardly the problem here; as long as I do any damage at all I can just keep hips:ing in safety until all my targets are dead.

SirK8

Katermeister said:

I managed to solo Drizzt at lvl 7 with a SD

--snip--

Difficulty: Easiest!!

--snip--

I know this isn't very impressive since difficulty was set to easy, but still i raise the question:

Is the SD to OP?

@Satyrion is that you?!

bill_zagoudis

i believe assasin is still better,especially for endgame,why?

early because of the poison(works with bows too),late because you can use assasination(all attacks in the next round are backstabs) with belm+mainhand for 3x7 backstabs,that's 21 hits,not bad right(ok almost 21 some modifiers are not multiplied in backstabs,but assasin backstabs are almost always 70+ damage)

note that some creatures are simply immunue to backstabs,there the only thief trick that works are the traps(which are also op since they can insta kill very powerfull enemies sometimes before they even manage to use spell protections....)

pretty much any thief will end up being overpowered(not in mellee,only by traps and backstabs),but having a second is a waste of space

Stargazer5781

Now install sword coast strategems and do it

OutsiderSubtype

Don't think we can really comment on this kit given how buggy it is right now.

TheCoffeeGod

KingGhidorah said:

In late BG1, when Shadowdancers get their hide skills up to 100 percent and get a x3 backstab they can be very powerful.

Technically, until they fix the Shadowdancer BS bug in a future patch, currently Shadowdancers get Thief BS modifers.

x3 BS at Lv5
x4 BS at Lv9

Katermeister

Tested it on Core and hardest difficulty. Still works, but you have to be quick and restealth after each attack. Every other hit Drizzt makes is an instant kill. Avoiding his attacks is paramount. In other words it's alot more time consuming and precision demanding.

FinneousPJ

How about a Shadowdancer 6->Fighter 8 dual-class?

Character sheet

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Datasheet

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Gear:
Ankheg Plate
Ring of Protection +1
Dagger of Venom
The three physical manuals

Highlights:
-6 AC
5 THAC0
x3 Backstab