Good point, I didn't try it. I'd guess you can with penalties, though. Probably you'd need to use leather armor for hiding - that'll take a couple of points from the AC.
Well cocking about in Candlekeep it seemed pretty good - and it's the best you can do when multiclassing. Besides, what kind of Shadowdancer operates during the day? It's simple enough to manipulate time in this game.
@Oxford_Guy have you heard of the 'Staff of Striking' Best weapon in BG1 to back stab with = owns Sarevok.
I would also like to state that the damage dealt by staffs are crushing. Which is the best type of weapon damage because there are more monster resistant to slashing and piercing (Heavily plated NPC's and Skeletons are major culprit of AC bonuses against Slashing and Percing)
though this instance he has mistaken two-handed weapon style for two weapon style.
@Aosaw While thinking about nerfing the cool-down effect I consider the following. If the time needed to regain the ability to hide after a successful backstab attack will be equal to the time needed to regain the ability to hide after you failed to hide then this kit will have nothing special at all: you'd go away from a monster, hide, come back. What's the difference if there're always corners, nature objects that can keep you out of enemy's sight at least for a second that you can use to hide.
I see an ability to hide as soon as your backstab attack is successful as the main and very attractive feature of this kit. I always thought that was the point of a Shadowdancer. It's the only thing that can alternate a potion of invisibility or a spell (if you're a multiclass mage/thief).
The low backstab multiplier and a small number of thieving stats are already enough to balance this kit. I'm surprised noone thinks the same...
I see an ability to hide as soon as your backstab attack is successful as the main and very attractive feature of this kit. I always thought that was the point of a Shadowdancer. It's the only thing that can alternate a potion of invisibility or a spell (if you're a multiclass mage/thief).
The low backstab multiplier and a small number of thieving stats are already enough to balance this kit. I'm surprised noone thinks the same...
That would be completely imbalanced due to the fact that you hit > hide > hit > hide and can't be detected at all if you're wearing a cloak of non-detection (Only creatures that natively see invisibility would be able to do something against your characters, making for a very....dull experience)
There has to be some limitation to the ability.
Honestly, I'd prefer if the class had the same kind of backstab progression as the tracker (goes up to x4), with the hide in plain sight triggering a cooldown on the hide button (I believe the cooldown lasts about 2 rounds, so that would be fair)
It isn't dull at all. There's a chance you fail hiding in shadows - it's rather a big one in BG1 especially in the daylight. You need to be at least at level 13 (11 if you're a halfling) to have a decent chance to hide.
For me, hit > run > hide tactics is more boring. If a Shadowdancer will follow this way, in what way will he differ from other thieves?
Moreover, we've used this tactics for 10 years already. An ability to hide after a hit has brought some new experience in the gameplay and alone enhances this edition more than enough for me (I like to use stealthy characters). If you consider this ability cheesy, you can always do not choose this kit.
The system as it is now gives you a variety in tactics: if you've hid after the attack, you attack again and if you haven't hid after the attack you should retreat and hide elsewhere. Nerfing it will take this variety back.
The low backstab multiplier and a small number of thieving stats are already enough to balance this kit. I'm surprised noone thinks the same...
Oh, I expect there will be plenty of people whining about nerfs when the backstab multipliyer is fixed to work as it is intended... (especially when they realise the impact on a certain HLA)
The low backstab multiplier and a small number of thieving stats are already enough to balance this kit. I'm surprised noone thinks the same...
Oh, I expect there will be plenty of people whining about nerfs when the backstab multipliyer is fixed to work as it is intended... (especially when they realise the impact on a certain HLA)
Yes, it seems those who talk about nerfing about a cool-down effect don't take into account the true backstab multipliers. When you run 80% of BG:EE with only x2 multiplier, hit > hide > hit > hide tactics doesn't seem powerful at all, especially taking into account a chance to hide that is not big. And in BG2:EE it will be only x3 multiplier all the game, without any advances. The feature to hide after an attack is the main trait of this kit.
If a Shadowdancer is given the nerf about a cool-down effect and standard multipliers he won't be interesting and all the idea about this kit will go to waste.
What I would expect from hide in plain sight was it has some penalty like 25% or 50%.
After read this thread, I have thought to another way to balance this ability: - We keep the ability to hide many times in a round but each attack (succeed or not) add some penalty to hide in shadow (some thing like 5% or 10%) at the end of each round this penalty is reduce form the half of an attack (if the penalty is 10% by attack, at the end of the round it is reduce of 5%)
What would be really nice is if detect invisibility/true sight/etc actually gave the ability to see invisible/hidden creatures all the time. Currently these spells only make a check once/round, meaning you can easily hide/attack/rehide between these checks.
@Aosaw While thinking about nerfing the cool-down effect I consider the following. If the time needed to regain the ability to hide after a successful backstab attack will be equal to the time needed to regain the ability to hide after you failed to hide then this kit will have nothing special at all: you'd go away from a monster, hide, come back. What's the difference if there're always corners, nature objects that can keep you out of enemy's sight at least for a second that you can use to hide.
Don't most enemies tend to follow you if you try to run away? I don't remember it being all that easy to re-stealth unless you're in really confined spaces, where there's lots of sharp corners and otherthings to break line of sight. From what I remember you usually require boots of speed if you want to backstab>run away>re-stealth>repeat effectively in combat. Also, you'd be vulnerable while you're running away to break LoS. With a shadowdancer, it's possible to prevent enemies from even being able to target you in the first place, as long as you stealth successfully.
@Aosaw While thinking about nerfing the cool-down effect I consider the following. If the time needed to regain the ability to hide after a successful backstab attack will be equal to the time needed to regain the ability to hide after you failed to hide then this kit will have nothing special at all: you'd go away from a monster, hide, come back. What's the difference if there're always corners, nature objects that can keep you out of enemy's sight at least for a second that you can use to hide.
Don't most enemies tend to follow you if you try to run away? I don't remember it being all that easy to re-stealth unless you're in really confined spaces, where there's lots of sharp corners and otherthings to break line of sight. From what I remember you usually require boots of speed if you want to backstab>run away>re-stealth>repeat effectively in combat. Also, you'd be vulnerable while you're running away to break LoS. With a shadowdancer, it's possible to prevent enemies from even being able to target you in the first place, as long as you stealth successfully.
Isn't a possibility to prevent enemies from even being able to target you in the first place, as long as you stealth successfully the main trait of a Shadowdancer? Isn't it an ability this kit is meant to have? Isn't it a thing a Shadowdancer has to differ from other thieves?
If not, what's the point of a Shadowdancer? If not, what are the advantages of this kit to compensate for a low number of thieving skills and a low backstab multiplier?
About re-stealting by other thieves I'd like to say that with some knack and practice it's possible to find a place at any area where an enemy looses you from his sight for a second at least. In dungeons this is hardly a problem while outdoors there're at least one hurdle in any area. You just have to retreat, walk in circles, change directions and you'll have a chance. After you gain Boots of Speed this becomes much more easier, yes, but it's possible even without them if your enemy has a standard speed.
I can't wait till bg2 ^^* Dualclass a shadowdancer to a mage and you get infinite invisibilities without having to use the cheatstick(staff of magi). Not to mention, cloak of non-detection :P
IMHO disabling dual classing from shadowdancer might balance it out. It is a highly specialised, almost magical class afterall. As of now, you can get perfect HİS/MS scores then dual into fighter for grandmastery, dual wielding for 4-5 attacks/round and you can backstab with each and every one of them as long as you don't fail your hide in shadows roll after each attack, and most regular enemies can not even retaliate. That's pretty hardcore.
Adding mage skills is a little less formidable, since you don't get mastery, better THAC0 and attacks, but mages are notorious that with correct spells they can simulate almost any other class. (improved haste, tenser's trans, spell immunity:diviniation, mislead, simulacrum, time stop, ugh..)
Dualing into cleric is the least powerful, but they still get some sweet self-buffs, excellent save vs poison/death, healing, restoration and raise dead, turn undead ability, and quarterstaves are among best backstab weapons.
After playing with Montaron as a SD for a bit, I have to say that HiPS is OP (not that it really matters) to the point it makes every area somewhat trivial. Up until level 6 however, when I had invested enough thief points in stealth and had both the stealth armour and boots, the class sucked big time. If HiPS isn't reliable you run a huge risk of being squished.
I don't think removing the re-stealth ability is a good idea. No matter what you think of the ability, the game will definitely become poorer if you remove it.
The problem is IMO, that BG1 is not balanced to handle so much invisibility. BG2 is. Furthermore, alot of creatures that should be immune to backstab in BG1, isn't. I might be wrong about this since I'm more familiar with 3rd edition rules which states that constructs (golems), undead and oozes can't be backstabbed.
Playing with SD a bit, I was gleefuly backstabbing the ogres in Shaol's map, it was night time, my sd had whistling sword+2 and those silent boots, so I was able to kill most of them with none being the wiser. Then in the blink of an eye, my SD failed to hide in shadows once and an ogrillion critical smacked him for 22 damage, nearly killing him. He ran away in fear gulping healing potions.
As you see it only takes one second mistake for a disaster, so I don't think SD is overpowered. SD is a thief kit so by design it has poor THAC0, few weapon proficiencies, no critical protection, 1 base attack, no further hit point bonus if CON is>16 , and weak d6 hit dice. He is even worse than a regular thief because of abysmal skill points and reduced backstab. To compensate he has HiPS and it is a fun and unique ability to use.
But I still think dualling him into fighter will be OP, he will have almost all of his weaknesses covered:having helmets, weapon mastery, extra HP from 17+ CON, better THAC0 and attacks etc. while still being able to HiPS, that's a bit..too much IMHO. Imagine a greater whirlwind attack, and you pause and hit hide in shadows after each attack, you abuse HiPS, making each attack backstabs...woah! Shadow dancers should not be able to execute ten backstabs in a round with HiPS!
IMHO disabling dual classing from shadowdancer might balance it out. It is a highly specialised, almost magical class afterall. As of now, you can get perfect HİS/MS scores then dual into fighter for grandmastery, dual wielding for 4-5 attacks/round and you can backstab with each and every one of them as long as you don't fail your hide in shadows roll after each attack, and most regular enemies can not even retaliate. That's pretty hardcore.
And is confirmed to be bugged.
Intended functionality is that backstab damage cap at X3 at level 9, and that HIPS can only be used ONCE per round, so only benefits the first attack.
Wheras a multiclassed fighter/thief with the Assassinate HLA can backstab 2.5 times per round (more with the right gear, and up to 10 times with whirlwind) for X5 damage. Now that IS hardcore. Oh, and they can find traps, open locks, etc as well...
IMHO disabling dual classing from shadowdancer might balance it out. It is a highly specialised, almost magical class afterall. As of now, you can get perfect HİS/MS scores then dual into fighter for grandmastery, dual wielding for 4-5 attacks/round and you can backstab with each and every one of them as long as you don't fail your hide in shadows roll after each attack, and most regular enemies can not even retaliate. That's pretty hardcore.
And is confirmed to be bugged.
Intended functionality is that backstab damage cap at X3 at level 9, and that HIPS can only be used ONCE per round, so only benefits the first attack.
Wheras a multiclassed fighter/thief with the Assassinate HLA can backstab 2.5 times per round (more with the right gear, and up to 10 times with whirlwind) for X5 damage. Now that IS hardcore. Oh, and they can find traps, open locks, etc as well...
A Shadowdancer must reach quite a high level in order to be competive with find (disarm) traps and lockpicting without loosing good chances to hide in shadows, especially taking into account the penalties in the light. If you improve all his thieving skills (not only MS and HS) and plan to dual him into a fighter later then you're entitled to run a large part of BG2 as a single fighter that is not pretty to say the least.
So, the theoretical ability to use a Shadowdancer not only as a backstabber but also as an ordinary thief can't be seen as something that makes a Shadowdancer powerful. Also it must be taken into consideration that he can't set traps that is quite a blow to a power of any thief because traps help a lot.
Kensai/thief is also quite a powerhouse especially in ToB. There're also ranger/clerics... So, a Shadowdancer dualled to a fighter is not the end of this world. And we're talking about the advantages that can be reached only in ToB - not in BG1, SoA... It's a marvellous part of the game before ToB. No advantages there. And not everyone even continue to play after completing SoA.
To change a basics that becomes relevant at the first level only to nerf using of fighter abilities late in the game is wrong.
Not everyone duals a Shadowdancer and even less people dual him into a fighter.
Besides, fighter abilities pre-ToB combined with HiPS can't be seen OP also because there're many, many different ways to bring power: Ironskinned (Stoneskinned) fighters, berzerking, kaing etc.
Also, if we're talking about cheesy things: Kensai/thief x5 multiplier + kai , assassin/fighter - the same WW but + x5 (even x7) multiplier + poison no save! At least an assassin/fighter is MUCH stronger than a shadowdancer/fighter.
Also, in order to have Assassinate HLA as well as WW HLA your character must either solo a game or wait enormous amount of time to regain the thieving abilities (because he must reach ToB as a thief and only then dual-class). Besides, such things are only relevant for those who dual in ToB, not SoA. It's not a majority.
x5 multiplier is not reachable for a Shadowdancer. ONLY x3.
Now there's a bug about his multipliers in BG1 but it will be changed soon and won't make it to BG2:EE. I don't dispute it. But everyting else must stay the same.
- Gains 20 skill points per level - Backstab multiplier slightly lower than rogue (x3 at level 9, maximum of x4 at level 15) - Can use "hide in plain sight" to hide even in front of creatures. This triggers the "hide failed" cooldown upon use. - Gets the other minor ability (Shadow walk and so on)
This way, the character wouldn't be as useless during early BG1, and during BG2, you would still get some use out of the kit.
The current implementation really isnt that great.
Comments
You're missing out all the fun as a thief, bro.
EDIT: except the dagger which boosts AC with SW Style.
have you heard of the 'Staff of Striking' Best weapon in BG1 to back stab with = owns Sarevok.
I would also like to state that the damage dealt by staffs are crushing. Which is the best type of weapon damage because there are more monster resistant to slashing and piercing (Heavily plated NPC's and Skeletons are major culprit of AC bonuses against Slashing and Percing)
though this instance he has mistaken two-handed weapon style for two weapon style.
While thinking about nerfing the cool-down effect I consider the following. If the time needed to regain the ability to hide after a successful backstab attack will be equal to the time needed to regain the ability to hide after you failed to hide then this kit will have nothing special at all: you'd go away from a monster, hide, come back. What's the difference if there're always corners, nature objects that can keep you out of enemy's sight at least for a second that you can use to hide.
I see an ability to hide as soon as your backstab attack is successful as the main and very attractive feature of this kit. I always thought that was the point of a Shadowdancer. It's the only thing that can alternate a potion of invisibility or a spell (if you're a multiclass mage/thief).
The low backstab multiplier and a small number of thieving stats are already enough to balance this kit. I'm surprised noone thinks the same...
There has to be some limitation to the ability.
Honestly, I'd prefer if the class had the same kind of backstab progression as the tracker (goes up to x4), with the hide in plain sight triggering a cooldown on the hide button (I believe the cooldown lasts about 2 rounds, so that would be fair)
For me, hit > run > hide tactics is more boring. If a Shadowdancer will follow this way, in what way will he differ from other thieves?
Moreover, we've used this tactics for 10 years already. An ability to hide after a hit has brought some new experience in the gameplay and alone enhances this edition more than enough for me (I like to use stealthy characters). If you consider this ability cheesy, you can always do not choose this kit.
The system as it is now gives you a variety in tactics: if you've hid after the attack, you attack again and if you haven't hid after the attack you should retreat and hide elsewhere. Nerfing it will take this variety back.
It seems people rarely share my views though.
If a Shadowdancer is given the nerf about a cool-down effect and standard multipliers he won't be interesting and all the idea about this kit will go to waste.
After read this thread, I have thought to another way to balance this ability:
- We keep the ability to hide many times in a round but each attack (succeed or not) add some penalty to hide in shadow (some thing like 5% or 10%) at the end of each round this penalty is reduce form the half of an attack (if the penalty is 10% by attack, at the end of the round it is reduce of 5%)
If not, what's the point of a Shadowdancer? If not, what are the advantages of this kit to compensate for a low number of thieving skills and a low backstab multiplier?
About re-stealting by other thieves I'd like to say that with some knack and practice it's possible to find a place at any area where an enemy looses you from his sight for a second at least. In dungeons this is hardly a problem while outdoors there're at least one hurdle in any area. You just have to retreat, walk in circles, change directions and you'll have a chance. After you gain Boots of Speed this becomes much more easier, yes, but it's possible even without them if your enemy has a standard speed.
Adding mage skills is a little less formidable, since you don't get mastery, better THAC0 and attacks, but mages are notorious that with correct spells they can simulate almost any other class. (improved haste, tenser's trans, spell immunity:diviniation, mislead, simulacrum, time stop, ugh..)
Dualing into cleric is the least powerful, but they still get some sweet self-buffs, excellent save vs poison/death, healing, restoration and raise dead, turn undead ability, and quarterstaves are among best backstab weapons.
The problem is IMO, that BG1 is not balanced to handle so much invisibility. BG2 is. Furthermore, alot of creatures that should be immune to backstab in BG1, isn't. I might be wrong about this since I'm more familiar with 3rd edition rules which states that constructs (golems), undead and oozes can't be backstabbed.
As you see it only takes one second mistake for a disaster, so I don't think SD is overpowered. SD is a thief kit so by design it has poor THAC0, few weapon proficiencies, no critical protection, 1 base attack, no further hit point bonus if CON is>16 , and weak d6 hit dice. He is even worse than a regular thief because of abysmal skill points and reduced backstab. To compensate he has HiPS and it is a fun and unique ability to use.
But I still think dualling him into fighter will be OP, he will have almost all of his weaknesses covered:having helmets, weapon mastery, extra HP from 17+ CON, better THAC0 and attacks etc. while still being able to HiPS, that's a bit..too much IMHO. Imagine a greater whirlwind attack, and you pause and hit hide in shadows after each attack, you abuse HiPS, making each attack backstabs...woah! Shadow dancers should not be able to execute ten backstabs in a round with HiPS!
Intended functionality is that backstab damage cap at X3 at level 9, and that HIPS can only be used ONCE per round, so only benefits the first attack.
Wheras a multiclassed fighter/thief with the Assassinate HLA can backstab 2.5 times per round (more with the right gear, and up to 10 times with whirlwind) for X5 damage. Now that IS hardcore. Oh, and they can find traps, open locks, etc as well...
So, the theoretical ability to use a Shadowdancer not only as a backstabber but also as an ordinary thief can't be seen as something that makes a Shadowdancer powerful. Also it must be taken into consideration that he can't set traps that is quite a blow to a power of any thief because traps help a lot.
Kensai/thief is also quite a powerhouse especially in ToB. There're also ranger/clerics... So, a Shadowdancer dualled to a fighter is not the end of this world. And we're talking about the advantages that can be reached only in ToB - not in BG1, SoA... It's a marvellous part of the game before ToB. No advantages there. And not everyone even continue to play after completing SoA.
To change a basics that becomes relevant at the first level only to nerf using of fighter abilities late in the game is wrong.
Not everyone duals a Shadowdancer and even less people dual him into a fighter.
Besides, fighter abilities pre-ToB combined with HiPS can't be seen OP also because there're many, many different ways to bring power: Ironskinned (Stoneskinned) fighters, berzerking, kaing etc.
Also, if we're talking about cheesy things: Kensai/thief x5 multiplier + kai , assassin/fighter - the same WW but + x5 (even x7) multiplier + poison no save! At least an assassin/fighter is MUCH stronger than a shadowdancer/fighter.
Also, in order to have Assassinate HLA as well as WW HLA your character must either solo a game or wait enormous amount of time to regain the thieving abilities (because he must reach ToB as a thief and only then dual-class). Besides, such things are only relevant for those who dual in ToB, not SoA. It's not a majority.
x5 multiplier is not reachable for a Shadowdancer. ONLY x3.
Now there's a bug about his multipliers in BG1 but it will be changed soon and won't make it to BG2:EE. I don't dispute it. But everyting else must stay the same.
- Gains 20 skill points per level
- Backstab multiplier slightly lower than rogue (x3 at level 9, maximum of x4 at level 15)
- Can use "hide in plain sight" to hide even in front of creatures. This triggers the "hide failed" cooldown upon use.
- Gets the other minor ability (Shadow walk and so on)
This way, the character wouldn't be as useless during early BG1, and during BG2, you would still get some use out of the kit.
The current implementation really isnt that great.