I never spoke specificly about SCS in any way, although the discussion was leaning in that direction. I was speaking in favor of a general AI improvement, and to improvements of the game in general. SCS could be one way to go, or just something to have in mind or do something else entirely. Either way I do believe an AI upgrade would benefit everyone. You could still change difficulties.
I wouldn't be against that in principle. The most important aspect for me is to be able to freely choose how to play the game, i.e whether vanilla (for people that like the game exactly as it is and as it was for the last 15 years) or modified in several ways. Whether this is achieved through mods or in-game option settings, it doesn't really matter to me. However, I still believe mods could provide more variety than any implementation of the in-game difficulty setting.
I strongly agree with Erg's one response in particular here. I have absolutely nothing against an option to make the game harder and/or an overhaul of AI, but I wish to retain the option to play through at the standard difficulties and AIs.
I disagree with the opinion that people playing BG EE should have the possibility of playing the game just like it was in Vanilla BG (Vanilla BG is still out there for those who want it untouched, but of course not for all platforms), that is not the point of making an enhanced edition.
Respectfully, neither is the point of an Enhanced Edition to completely overwrite the game's AI.
Basically, I'm for increased AI built into the game. Most of the people here are probably long-time fans, or above the age of 14. We've all beaten this game to death with and without mods. Tutu and vanilla. SCS and Tactics. A new challenge in an enhanced version of the game is perfectly reasonable, I think.
Basically, I'm for increased AI built into the game. Most of the people here are probably long-time fans, or above the age of 14. We've all beaten this game to death with and without mods. Tutu and vanilla. SCS and Tactics. A new challenge in an enhanced version of the game is perfectly reasonable, I think.
IMHO everyone deserves to play BG, at least once, the way it was originally designed (but eventually on modern hardware).
Why people new to the game should be denied this possibility, just because you've beaten the game several times?
You bet. Everyone can play BG:EE. There is this nifty feature called a "Difficulty Slider". Normal and below, let the AI retain the intelligence of a 3 year-old in combat, get max HP on a level-up, and do a little more damage respective of how low you go.
The higher the difficulty, the more intelligent the enemy(ies). I honestly don't think that's unreasonable at all. As it stands currently, the AI on harder difficulties is the same as it is on 'easy'. No matter how much HP they have, or how much damage they do; they still fall for the same ( stupid ) tactics, cheese, or my 10 year-old cousin.
In my opinion, the AI is a joke without SCS. If you want to play a game that's that simple, play Tetris. I'd like to think most people that play modern games would like at least a challenge even on Normal difficulty and that falls squarely on the AI of the enemies. I'm not saying that SCS is a perfect mod ( for veterans it's outstanding ), but the developers of BG:EE could learn a thing or three from it.
I hope in BG2:EE, that AI will at least improve to an 8th graders' intelligence.
having Baeloth and Dorn are simply op in bg standards,also we find too many magical items now,for instance in the vanilla game only one of our fighters had the +1hit +2 damage gloves,now all of them do, also we now have kits and some of them are too strong in BG
Wait, there's more than two pairs of Gauntlets of Weapon Expertise now? Even in the original BG, there were two from what I remember. One off of Vellium ( or whatever; random dude in Firewine ), and one on Tazok that you could score with some cheese.
As far as Baeloth and Dorn being OP; I wouldn't know. Again, I can't play BG:EE until next week, so I try not to be "that guy". I can see how Drow(s) could be pretty OP in BG2, but not quite as much in BG1. As for Dorn; I'm not impressed with him or the Kit. I'm sure I'll eventually play the Kit now that I've found some pretty great portraits, but I think as it stands, I'd rather play a Lolful Good kitted Paladin.
And again, if we had a real difficulty slider, it'd be hard to say Kits are OP in BG1.
Just to add my $0.02. If the devs were going to improve core AI it would have to be related to the difficulty setting you use. I don't think most people new to the game, who actually feel the game is hard in Core difficulty, would know how to deal with enemy mages precasting defensive spells and countering the party's own spells at the same time.
Unfortunately, AFAIK, mods can't actually change their behavior according to difficulty setting, it would require a change in the game itself.
You bet. Everyone can play BG:EE. There is this nifty feature called a "Difficulty Slider". Normal and below, let the AI retain the intelligence of a 3 year-old in combat, get max HP on a level-up, and do a little more damage respective of how low you go.
The higher the difficulty, the more intelligent the enemy(ies). I honestly don't think that's unreasonable at all. As it stands currently, the AI on harder difficulties is the same as it is on 'easy'. No matter how much HP they have, or how much damage they do; they still fall for the same ( stupid ) tactics, cheese, or my 10 year-old cousin.
In my opinion, the AI is a joke without SCS. If you want to play a game that's that simple, play Tetris. I'd like to think most people that play modern games would like at least a challenge even on Normal difficulty and that falls squarely on the AI of the enemies. I'm not saying that SCS is a perfect mod ( for veterans it's outstanding ), but the developers of BG:EE could learn a thing or three from it.
I hope in BG2:EE, that AI will at least improve to an 8th graders' intelligence.
LOL!
But did you even read my previous posts in this discussion?
Just to add my $0.02. If the devs were going to improve core AI it would have to be related to the difficulty setting you use. I don't think most people new to the game, who actually feel the game is hard in Core difficulty, would know how to deal with enemy mages precasting defensive spells and countering the party's own spells at the same time.
Just as I said earlier, I would like to have newly invented better than original BG AI-system. How it would be implemented is totally different case, it can be SCS* or it can be fresh new Artificial Intelligence that rule them all - it is decision up to somebody else.
This summarizes my feeling. I don't necessarily think SCS needs to be the "enhanced" AI option, but I do think some kind of fix is warranted, SCS is pretty damn professional, and the SCS guru is on the team, so it's a low-labor solution to this problem that is actionable.
Just to add my $0.02. If the devs were going to improve core AI it would have to be related to the difficulty setting you use. I don't think most people new to the game, who actually feel the game is hard in Core difficulty, would know how to deal with enemy mages precasting defensive spells and countering the party's own spells at the same time.
Unfortunately, AFAIK, mods can't actually change their behavior according to difficulty setting, it would require a change in the game itself.
You're right. It would drive new players up the wall trying to figure out how to bring down that weird blue circle off a Mage or Sorcerer. I'm not 100% sure, but in BG and BG2, they included a nice little ( kinda' big ) instruction manual with details on all the spells, abilities, classes and such throughout the game. If, for some reason, BG:EE doesn't include one, there's always the Internet. There's a crap-ton of information on this game, it's predecessors, and it's sequel. Not to mention a pretty cool forum that a lot of us couldn't utilize when the originals came out. I feel old now.
However, isn't the mystery and challenge of new encounters part of the fun? I mean, to me it is. Assuming I had no internet connection, and lived in B.F.E, I'd eventually figure out why my spells weren't hitting that Mage, or why my melee were having a having a hard time getting through his defenses. Besides, assuming BG:EE isn't their first game ever that involved classes, they're going to know they need to create a somewhat balanced party which involves the 'cannon' party by default. The default or cannon party has every tool they need to successfully beat this game on any difficulty ( as it stands ). If a first-time player is having problems trying to get rid of Davaerons' defense spells, Jaheira has plenty options to help out with that.
Then again, I'm kind of an anti-easy kind of guy. I hardly play games anymore because of all the hand-holding that goes on in most games available today.
another clarification: i am not asking for a complete ai rewrite, just on the maximum difficulty some extra 'smart moves' monsters normally wouldn't do, and again not to every single enemy in game, just spellcasters,bosses,assasins and generally intelligent enemies,apart from that i'd like bosses improved in general,especially lategame ones when you have everything at your disposal to fight them
also i do not want any change to easy/normal/core rules settings,so it will cause no problem to the new players
Then again, I'm kind of an anti-easy kind of guy. I hardly play games anymore because of all the hand-holding that goes on in most games available today.
I fully agree with you on this, but I also believe that any change to gameplay (including improved AI) should be implemented only through mods simply because this would give each user full control on how to customise the game.
Some components of SCS like improved calling to other monsters nearby and realistic wolves (i really like dogs as well!) and other realistic basic components go into the main game and then things like improved mages, upgraded chapter ending etc, get left to the mods?
might even make the mod easier to maintain for DavidW?
Some components of SCS like improved calling to other monsters nearby and realistic wolves (i really like dogs as well!) and other realistic basic components go into the main game and then things like improved mages, upgraded chapter ending etc, get left to the mods?
Why compromise when you can have full control on what to install?
Some components of SCS like improved calling to other monsters nearby and realistic wolves (i really like dogs as well!) and other realistic basic components go into the main game and then things like improved mages, upgraded chapter ending etc, get left to the mods?
might even make the mod easier to maintain for DavidW?
I'm sure if the Devs. did implement anything, it would be in the "middle ground". However, I just don't see how people can settle for rather stupid enemies in the standard game. This isn't 1998, where crappy AI was okay to have due to technological limitations ( software? I'm no computer guru ).
I'm not asking for a built-in SCS. Just asking for somewhat smarter enemies. If my Mage is casting a spell that lasts for more than say, three seconds, I want that enemy Mage to hit him with a Magic Missile. Or if I'm up against Kysuss's group at the entrance to the Cloakwood Mines, I want their fighters to bum-rush my Mage or Cleric, or the character that's taken the most damage if they've chased my Mage off at a respectable distance where they harass the Cleric.
The point is, we ( the players ) make intelligent decisions, pre-buff, pre-summon etc. all the time. The least they could do is add some halfway decent scripts to the enemies to give them a fighting chance.
@Erg We have all understood that you are very pro modding and that pretty much every addition to the game should be covered by that. Some of us don't feel that way, don't patronise us for it. We have the right to ask the Devs to include what we feel is important, just as they have the right to decide that it's a non-issue or that it's not a priority.
The devs should enhance the game for me. That's why it's called Enhanced Edition.
Heck, a lot of the difference between the original release and EE can be summed up as Tutu + Widescreen + 1PP, totally new content notwithstanidng. You might as well argue that those shouldn't have been implemented because it keeps players from being able to install the mods themselves.
If you just want smarter enemy, why don't you simply install SCS ?
Would not that solve your problem?
Should the devs install mods for you and maybe even play the game for you?
Can't you do it by yourself?
I have SCS for both BGtutu and BG2 along with Ascension for ToB. Thanks asshole. As far as: "Should the devs install mods for you and maybe even play the game for you?" rhetorical question; no. However they might as well because as the game is now, the only thing they're required to do is walk, Select All, and gang-bang a target.
@Erg We have all understood that you are very pro modding and that pretty much every addition to the game should be covered by that. Some of us don't feel that way, don't patronise us for it. We have the right to ask the Devs to include what we feel is important, just as they have the right to decide that it's a non-issue or that it's not a priority.
You are a reasonable person and even though we do not agree I respect your opinion. I would never patronise you. My post wasn't directed to you and I'm sorry if you felt otherwise.
Someone else is not as reasonable as you (just read their posts to realise what I mean). My post was meant for them only.
The devs should enhance the game for me. That's why it's called Enhanced Edition.
Heck, a lot of the difference between the original release and EE can be summed up as Tutu + Widescreen + 1PP, totally new content notwithstanidng. You might as well argue that those shouldn't have been implemented because it keeps players from being able to install the mods themselves.
@Erg, Yep, I think the two of us may have had this particular back-and-forth once. :]
I respect the concept of fidelity to the source material to a point, but, as an example, I think that if 1PP had been left out of the official EE build at release, there would be a vocal minority of users right now who still wanted it kept out of the official build on the grounds that it was a "mod." In other words, I think the typical modern Tutu/BGT installation components would be viewed as common-sense, standard parts of the EE experience were they to be implemented.
That said, this thread is not about SCS in particular, but about AI enhancements in general as an important feature. SCS is coming up in discussion only because it is excellent and its author was recently recruited to the team.
so, i thought 'let's give SCS a go,it's probably worth it'
i got: an error about some missing tlk
i mean: core game>mods
i'm really not in the mood to try to find out what is wrong...just saying for the people who think modding is the answer to everything
There ought to be a sticky thread in the Modding forum (one with the "Announcement" tag) which goes through the steps you need to follow to be able to mod your game.
If that doesn't work, let us know what platform you're on, and what steps you've followed, and exactly what went wrong.
Comments
IMHO everyone deserves to play BG, at least once, the way it was originally designed (but eventually on modern hardware).
Why people new to the game should be denied this possibility, just because you've beaten the game several times?
The higher the difficulty, the more intelligent the enemy(ies). I honestly don't think that's unreasonable at all. As it stands currently, the AI on harder difficulties is the same as it is on 'easy'. No matter how much HP they have, or how much damage they do; they still fall for the same ( stupid ) tactics, cheese, or my 10 year-old cousin.
In my opinion, the AI is a joke without SCS. If you want to play a game that's that simple, play Tetris. I'd like to think most people that play modern games would like at least a challenge even on Normal difficulty and that falls squarely on the AI of the enemies. I'm not saying that SCS is a perfect mod ( for veterans it's outstanding ), but the developers of BG:EE could learn a thing or three from it.
I hope in BG2:EE, that AI will at least improve to an 8th graders' intelligence.
Unfortunately, AFAIK, mods can't actually change their behavior according to difficulty setting, it would require a change in the game itself.
But did you even read my previous posts in this discussion?
However, isn't the mystery and challenge of new encounters part of the fun? I mean, to me it is. Assuming I had no internet connection, and lived in B.F.E, I'd eventually figure out why my spells weren't hitting that Mage, or why my melee were having a having a hard time getting through his defenses. Besides, assuming BG:EE isn't their first game ever that involved classes, they're going to know they need to create a somewhat balanced party which involves the 'cannon' party by default. The default or cannon party has every tool they need to successfully beat this game on any difficulty ( as it stands ). If a first-time player is having problems trying to get rid of Davaerons' defense spells, Jaheira has plenty options to help out with that.
Then again, I'm kind of an anti-easy kind of guy. I hardly play games anymore because of all the hand-holding that goes on in most games available today.
also i do not want any change to easy/normal/core rules settings,so it will cause no problem to the new players
Some components of SCS like improved calling to other monsters nearby and realistic wolves (i really like dogs as well!) and other realistic basic components go into the main game and then things like improved mages, upgraded chapter ending etc, get left to the mods?
might even make the mod easier to maintain for DavidW?
I'm not asking for a built-in SCS. Just asking for somewhat smarter enemies. If my Mage is casting a spell that lasts for more than say, three seconds, I want that enemy Mage to hit him with a Magic Missile. Or if I'm up against Kysuss's group at the entrance to the Cloakwood Mines, I want their fighters to bum-rush my Mage or Cleric, or the character that's taken the most damage if they've chased my Mage off at a respectable distance where they harass the Cleric.
The point is, we ( the players ) make intelligent decisions, pre-buff, pre-summon etc. all the time. The least they could do is add some halfway decent scripts to the enemies to give them a fighting chance.
If you just want smarter enemy, why don't you simply install SCS ?
Would not that solve your problem?
Should the devs install mods for you and maybe even play the game for you?
Can't you do it by yourself?
I have SCS for both BGtutu and BG2 along with Ascension for ToB. Thanks asshole. As far as: "Should the devs install mods for you and maybe even play the game for you?" rhetorical question; no. However they might as well because as the game is now, the only thing they're required to do is walk, Select All, and gang-bang a target.
You are a reasonable person and even though we do not agree I respect your opinion. I would never patronise you. My post wasn't directed to you and I'm sorry if you felt otherwise.
Someone else is not as reasonable as you (just read their posts to realise what I mean). My post was meant for them only.
I've replied to this argument several times in this and other discussions.
However, I will summarise for you the main counterarguments.
1) Enhancements IMHO should only concern "code optimisation", "aesthetics", "moddability", etc.
2) Changes to gameplay and content are not an enhancement.
3) You cannot simply compare mods that change aesthetics like 1PP and Widescreen with mods that change gameplay like SCS.
For new members please read http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/10852/site-rules-mind-the-gap
I respect the concept of fidelity to the source material to a point, but, as an example, I think that if 1PP had been left out of the official EE build at release, there would be a vocal minority of users right now who still wanted it kept out of the official build on the grounds that it was a "mod." In other words, I think the typical modern Tutu/BGT installation components would be viewed as common-sense, standard parts of the EE experience were they to be implemented.
That said, this thread is not about SCS in particular, but about AI enhancements in general as an important feature. SCS is coming up in discussion only because it is excellent and its author was recently recruited to the team.
i got: an error about some missing tlk
i mean: core game>mods
i'm really not in the mood to try to find out what is wrong...just saying for the people who think modding is the answer to everything
Suit yourself.
If you change your mind, feel free to ask for help and I can explain to you how to solve your tlk problem. It is quite easy to fix after all.
Should you decide to ask for help, please provide info like OS, language, etc., so I can give you better instructions.
If that doesn't work, let us know what platform you're on, and what steps you've followed, and exactly what went wrong.
There is... Right now it's the 6th topic in the list...
http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/6950/player-how-to-getting-mods-to-work-on-bgee/p1
Yeap I know that too... just wanted to point out the nearly hidden topic