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"Specialist" Mages

It really bothers me how specialist mages don't feel one bit specialized. Yesterday, I paid some attention to the spells they have when you pick them up on the levels you meet them at (as opposed to "intentionally dancing around the NPC you want until you reach level x so the NPC will already have spell y").

Edwin has Color Spray (Alteration, known) and Larloch's Minor Drain (Necromancy, memorized) and doesn't know a single Conjuration spell. Dynaheir had Larloch's too, and no Evocation spell. Xzar - what a surprise, Larloch's, but at least, it's his school. (I think Neera had Color Spray and that special Wild Mage spell.)

I wonder if there are any obvious downsides to "put all spells of a school in a specialist's spellbook" that I'm missing. If the so-called specialists already have exclusively spells unrelated to their school memorized, at least put the spells they *should* know in the spellbook. It's not like they could memorize spells above their level, so it makes no difference if Dynaheir knows Fireball at level 1; she can't cast it. It would just feel more specialized and maybe make it more appealing to try out the spells. The scrolls for the high level spells for each school can almost all be found in mid/late game or bought in Baldur's Gate. As far as I'm thinking, it would give no "overpowered" advantage to anyone, just make the pitiful excuses of "mage kits" feel more specialized. What am I overlooking or not considering (and should, before I write a feature request)?
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Comments

  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
    I agree 100%.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Just realized another thing: When Neera gets access to level 2 spells, she already has the Wild Mage one (chaos shield?). So she actually does what I wish other mages would do and automatically have the spells of their school. It's certainly possible to do this.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    edited March 2013
    Yep, all Wild Magi get a free 1st, 2nd and 7th level spell.

    For other specialist magi, it wouldn't hurt game balance at all IMHO to put all their school spells in their books.

    This can be done with a mod.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I suppose you could make a mod that takes the WM model and gives specialist mages spells automatically at certain points, spells that only they can cast.

    That would certainly make the kits more interesting. It's a bit weird that the mage class has such a huge number of kits, but those kits are really not unique at all. Not to mention that some of the restrictions just make no sense game-play wise (like Invoker being locked out of TWO schools for no reason or bonus).

    I guess it's a job for modders to address this. It goes beyond what can be done in an official patch, I fear.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    I suppose you could make a mod that takes the WM model and gives specialist mages spells automatically at certain points, spells that only they can cast.

    I think they only mean to add spells of the specialist's school. Any mage could cast these spells (unless prohibited by specialty), but the specialist would get all of them for free, guaranteed.

    Adding specialist-only spells might also be cool.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    edited March 2013
    I don't like the idea of giving away ALL the spells of a school for free. It's not terribly hard to find or buy most of the spells, and I reckon players ought to be expected to make that effort to acquire them.

    However, a variation on the theme occurs to me, which is more to my taste: Wild Mages get only one free spell of levels 2 and 3 and 7, automatically pre-inscribed in their spellbooks. I think it'd be a reasonable analogy for (other) specialist mages to get ONE free spell of their own school pre-inscribed at each spell level (or rather, each level for which their school has any spells). The RP for this would be that a specialist mage ought to learn at least one spell of his own school first (if there are any) at each level, before he can start learning spells of that level from other schools.

    Thus at level 1, a Necromancer would get Larloch's Minor Drain automatically, a Diviner would get Identify automatically, and so on, and similarly through the higher levels. For simplicity of implementation, I think the choice of which spell at each level ought to be pre-determined by the devs, not chosen by players.

    I agree with @Lord_Tansheron, though: this is too much of a change for an official patch, it's a job for a mod.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I would very much welcome both special spells (like the ones only Wild Mages can have) and some advantage when casting spells of the chosen school (i.e. specialists cast own school spells at +1 level or something). I would also like it if it was mandatory to memorize a spell of the chosen school per spell level before other schools can be memorized.

    However, my main issue is that it is silly and makes no sense to have "specialists" who don't even know a single spell of their school. It is also likely they will not gain a "trademark" spell if you take them in your party vs. you wait until they are level x.

    Example:

    When I meet Edwin in a somewhat natural progression of the game (no quick XP maps like basilisks and so on), charname is (depending on party size/class) level 1 or 2. Edwin has no conjuration spells. The same goes for Dynaheir; regardless if you do Nashkel Mines or Gnoll Stronghold first - she won't have spells of her school at that level.
    If you wait until charname is level 6 and then get either, Edwin will have Horror, Melf's Acid Arrow and Monster Summoning I. Dynaheir will have (not sure what level 2) and Fireball. Neither will have these spells if you just take them when you meet them, and they will not find these scrolls any time soon. (I think the first Fireball is in the Bandit Camp and Monster Summoning I even later.)
    I'm fairly sure no-one waits that long to recruit them. Xan and Xzar both appear when the party is around the same level - and Xan doesn't give you the chance to pick him up later; he'll disappear.

    So why do they magically (pardon the pun) know the level 2 and 3 spells if they just stand around and you are busy avoiding them, when they don't even know the basic level 1 spells of their school? They do get spells added to their book automatically... but only if you stay away from them. (Though I'm not sure how well they correspond with the schools... Horror is most certainly not Conjuration, but I haven't checked all mages, this is just from memory.)

    It would be satisfying enough if mages automatically got 1 or 2 spells (in their book, not memorized or per day or anything) of their school when they reach that caster level. Even if it was randomized or pre-selected by the devs, it would feel more specialized. As it is, mages more likely end up with spells not their school and feel more gimped because "can't cast x" (i.e. Xan can't learn Fireball, but also has no spell of his school for level 3 because you didn't find the scroll yet; Edwin learns Fireball because that's the only level 3 spell you have at that point,...). That's not specialized, that's making due with what you find on the way the same as a non-"kitted" mage or even a bard does.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    I sense agreement in principle between everyone posting (thus far) in this thread: mage specialisation ought to mean a little more than it does.

    I made a suggestion above for a modest change, and @KidCarnival implies that he'd be more-or-less satisfied by that. I also quite like @IkMarc's thought, that maybe specialist mages could have an advantage when casting from their own school - and casting at +1 level in your own speciality sounds sensible.

    However, I wouldn't support making both changes, it should be one thing or the other. Having both would make specialist mages too powerful in comparison to a basic mage. A kit is meant to offer some useful and interesting variety from the base class, but it's not meant to be so much better that there's no longer any point in the base class. (Yes, I know the cleric kits violate that principle, at least for single-class clerics, and therefore I think that cleric kits ought to have some minor penalty ... but that's a separate discussion.)

    On the other hand, perhaps if there were also a third change, removing the extra spell-per-day from specialist mages, then perhaps having both of the above changes wouldn't be too OP.
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  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Vanilla bards are also pretty gimped compared to the kits, same as clerics. Auto-adding spells of the chosen school doesn't really change much except you save some time and a bit gold (which you have more than enough of once you can buy higher level spells anyway).
    The comparison with clerics... yeah, very different story. They get all spells, no matter what kit, AND the kits have special "spells" as ability. It would be an alternative to give specialist mages one "trademark" spell of their school as ability, but then, it's very subjective what spell it should be, if it should scale by level, if uses should increase by level and all. So making use of the spellbook seems the easier thing.

    The "trade" I see as the best option:

    Vanilla mage: gets 1 extra spell per level, can learn all schools, gets 1 random spell added to book per spell level (random school, not random level, of course)
    Specialist mage: no extra spell, gets 2 spells of school added to book per spell level, casts school at +1 level, opposite school stays restricted

    Giving the extra spell slot and 1 random spell to vanilla mages makes them less "specialist", yet still an appealing charname choice; specialists would be way more... specialized; the loss of the extra spell slot translates as "focussing on own school" which results in casting these spells with a bonus.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2013
    This is what has always been posted at Planet Baldur's Gate about specialist mages:
    Because of their specialization, these mages receive a +15% chance to learn spells from their school but suffer a -15% penalty when learning spells outside their specialty. When saving against spells within his chosen school, the specialist receives a +1 to saving throws. Similarly, the specialist's enemies suffer a -1 penalty when saving against spells cast by the specialist within his field.
    I'm not sure how much of this actually got implemented, though. I had heard that these features were never actually implemented. I did make a request for this to be implemented last summer if the original game never did it. If these are features never made it into the vanilla game, I'm not sure if they made the list of EE's enhancements.
    Post edited by Lemernis on
  • KingGhidorahKingGhidorah Member Posts: 201
    Yeah, that bothers me too about bg.

    IIRC NWN gave specialist mages a bonus to their specialist school spell levels and made i more difficult to save against them.

    Some persistent worlds even gave bonus effects such a necromsncer having a long duration animate dead and an abjurer getting more layers of stoneskin for example
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Lemernis: so far as I know, none of those proposals made it into BGee. Probably too much of a change to original content to be permitted in the official version. Doesn't stop modders, though.

    However, I prefer some of the ideas discussed in this thread to what you've reported from elsewhere.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, I'd like to see some of the things mentioned here implemented as well, i.e., in addition to the original plans for the kit that never got implemented. I think this is up to a modder to take up, though.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Well, there we go... most of what was suggested is in the description. If only these two things made it in the game (by mod or otherwise), I'd already be happy:

    "Specialist wizards may memorize one additional spell per spell level, provided the spell selected belongs to the specialist’s school."

    "When a specialist reaches a new level, he automatically gains one spell of his school to add to his spell book."
  • secretmantrasecretmantra Member Posts: 259

    I don't like the idea of giving away ALL the spells of a school for free. It's not terribly hard to find or buy most of the spells, and I reckon players ought to be expected to make that effort to acquire them.

    [snip]

    Thus at level 1, a Necromancer would get Larloch's Minor Drain automatically, a Diviner would get Identify automatically, and so on, and similarly through the higher levels. For simplicity of implementation, I think the choice of which spell at each level ought to be pre-determined by the devs, not chosen by players.

    I agree with @Lord_Tansheron, though: this is too much of a change for an official patch, it's a job for a mod.

    Agreed. I would love to see this change. 1 "free" spell, per level, for specialists.

    It would also be nice to see a penalty to opponents' saves vs. spells of the specialists' school, a rule originally implemented in the PnP version of the game.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065

    It would also be nice to see a penalty to opponents' saves vs. spells of the specialists' school, a rule originally implemented in the PnP version of the game.

    How many spells with saves are there in BGEE for each school?
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Are there actually enough enemies that would make saves vs. opposite school worth it? There are certainly many casters, but with the exception of Kryll as necromancer, none is said to have a kit.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Hmmm... last time i didn't have tha much time to write all the thing i Know from DnD core of specialty mage,,, here comes an update.. hope you gets interested in it,,

    All Specialist Wizard
    Ability Requirements: Varies
    Prime Requisite: Intelligence
    Races Allowed: Varies
    Wizards who concentrate their efforts in one school of magic are known as
    specialist wizards. Generally, a specialist wizard must give up some degree of versatility
    in spell selection—he cannot learn or cast spells belonging to schools that oppose his own
    chosen school. The specialist also has several other benefits and restrictions; unless
    otherwise stated, all specialists must abide by the benefits and hindrances described
    below:
    Specialist wizards may memorize one additional spell per spell level, provided the
    spell selected belongs to the specialist’s school. Under this rule, a 1st-level specialist may
    have two spells memorized instead of only one.
    Specialists gain a bonus of +1 when making saving throws against spells of their
    own school. Specialists also inflict a –1 penalty to their victims’ saving throw attempts
    when casting a spell of their specialty school.
    Specialist wizards gain a bonus of +15% when learning spells from their school,
    but suffer a penalty of –15% when learning spells from any other school. Specialists
    cannot learn spells belonging to an opposition school.
    When a specialist reaches a new level, he automatically gains one spell of his
    school to add to his spell book. No roll for learning the spell need be made.

    (Specialists in Schools of Philosophy)


    Abjurer: The abjurer specializes in the school of abjuration, commanding
    magical energies that provide various forms of protection to himself and his companions.
    Abjurers enjoy the normal benefits and hindrances of specialist wizards.
    In addition, at 8th level the abjurer gains a +1 bonus to saving throws vs. paralyzation,
    poison, and death magic.
    At 11th level an abjurer’s base Armor Class improves by 1
    point due to his command of protective magic, and at 14th level the abjurer gains
    immunity to all forms of hold spells.

    Conjurer: All the normal benefits and hindrances of specialist wizards apply to conjurers. In
    addition, at 11th level a conjurer gains the ability to cast conjuration and summoning
    spells without any material components. At 14th level, the conjurer gains the power to
    instantly dispel creatures conjured by an opponent who has used monster summoning or
    an equivalent spell. The conjurer can dispel up to 10 HD worth of creatures with this
    ability simply by pointing at the target and concentrating one round. Only creatures with
    5 HD or less are affected, so a conjurer could dispel three 3 HD creatures, two 5 HD
    creatures, or any combination that does not exceed 10 HD. The conjurer may use this
    ability up to three times per day.

    Sadly Conjurer would need to be remade for Baldurs gate games cuz most of its abilities works in PnP but not in a computer game...

    Diviner: Diviners have the normal strengths and weaknesses of specialty wizards. In
    addition, at 11th level the diviner gains the ability to use find traps (a 2nd-level priest
    spell) up to three times per day by pointing in a specific direction and concentrating one
    round. At 14th level, the diviner becomes immune to all forms of scrying spells such as
    ESP, know alignment, or clairaudience; characters trying to use these divinations against
    the diviner simply get no response at all.

    Enchanter: Inaddition, when an enchanter reaches 11th level, he gains the ability to cast a special free
    action spell once per day on himself or any creature he touches. The casting time is only
    1, and no material components are required; the spell duplicates the effects of the
    4th-level priest spell free action and lasts for one hour. At 14th level, the enchanter
    acquires immunity to all forms of the charm spell.

    Illusionist: Masters of deceit and trickery, illusionists have access to a variety of
    powerful spells that can be far more dangerous than simple attack spells. opposed by necromancy, invocation/evocation, and abjuration.
    Illusionists gain the normal benefits of specialist wizards. When an illusionist
    reaches 8th level, he gains an additional +1 bonus to his saving throws against illusion
    spells cast by nonillusionists. (This is cumulative with his normal +1 bonus, for a total of
    +2). At 11th level, the illusionist gains the ability to cast a special dispel phantasmal
    force or dispel improved phantasmal force up to three times per day. The base chance of
    success is 50%, ±5% per level difference between the illusionist and the caster of the
    phantasmal force; for example, if a 16th-level illusionist is attempting to dispel an
    illusion cast by a 9th-level wizard, his chance of success is 85%. The dispel has a range
    of 30 yards and a casting time of 1; the illusionist need only point at the illusion and
    concentrate. If the illusionist attempts to dispel something that turns out to be real, the
    attempt still counts against his limit of three dispels per day.

    Invoker:
    invoker gains an additional +1 bonus to saving throws vs. invocation/evocation spells
    when he reaches 8th level, for a total of +2. At 11th level, this increases to +3. (These
    bonuses also apply to magical items that simulate invocation spells, such as a wand of
    fire.) At 14th level, the invoker acquires immunity to one invocation or evocation spell of
    3rd level or lower of his choice; however, this immunity does not extend to similar
    magical items or breath weapons.

    Necromancer: Necromancers gain the standard benefits for being specialist wizards. At 8th level,
    his saving throw bonus versus necromancy spells increases to a total of +2. At 11th level,
    the necromancer gains a special speak with dead spell-like ability that requires no verbal
    or material components; the wizard need only point at the deceased person and
    concentrate for one round. This spell functions like the 3rd-level priest spell speak with
    dead, except that the necromancer may converse for up to one turn and ask four questions
    of the spirit. At 14th level, the necromancer gains a partial resistance to the special effects
    of undead attacks; although he still suffers the normal damage of any such attack, he
    gains a +2 to saving throws against strength drain, paralyzation, and other effects. He
    may attempt a saving throw vs. death magic with a –4 penalty to avoid the effects of any
    attack that normally does not allow a save, such as a wight or wraith’s energy drain.


    Transmuter: Transmuters have the normal benefits and restrictions of specialist wizards. In
    addition, they gain an additional +1 bonus to their saving throws versus alteration spells
    and related magical effects (such as a wand of polymorph) when they reach 8th level, for
    a total of +2. At 11th level, this increases to +3.


    (Specialists in Schools of Thaumaturgy)

    Wild Mage: well wild mage is at it's core as it is there is no need for change.. it keeps the core rule good..

    (Specialists in Schools of Effect)
    Sadly there are none Specialists wizard of the Schools of Effect in Baldurs Gate


    Specialists in Schools of Effect Are:

    Elementalist
    Dimensionalist (Chronomancer is its other name).
    Force Mage if i remember it correctly in DA2 there were force magic specialization they reminds me of dnds force mage)
    Mentalist (is more like a psionics in spells and power)
    Shadow Mage (Shadow mage has a name change in 3,5rd edition it's called Shadowcaster there, Nethermancer is 4th edition name of shadow mage)

    As you see the Specialists Wizards of Schools of Philosophy are underdeveloped in baldurs Gate and they haven't implemented almost none of the core Specialists Wizards of Schools of Philosophy DnD except their name and one additional spell per day... I do belive that they could do more for Specialists Wizards of Schools of Philosophy.. some of the abilities might be redone... like Schools of Philosophy Conjurer..

    "source 2nd edition Ad&d"
    Post edited by The_Shairs_Handbook on
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited March 2013
    Some of these things would not work or have zero use in the game. For example, I've never had anyone cast "know alignment" on charname, it's 100 % useless. Conjurer ability to dispel creatures is also either mainly useless (since very few enemies ever summon creatures) - or in one case (cult tana'ri) hopelessly OP. It's the only powerful summoned creature, and to dispel it would be... kinda lulzy, but that's it. Illusionists would also have way too many forbidden schools to be balanced with the other specialists. That should be the same for all schools (except Wild Mage, naturally). I also don't think the necromancer ability to talk to the dead would work; most bodies disappear and you wouldn't be able to talk to them anyway because they don't have the dialogues for that.

    I'm certainly not against special abilities, especially in the case of necromancers - Xzar feels a lot more in tune with his school once he is dualed to cleric. Raising dead should be the core ability of necromancers, but that spell doesn't become available until late game. Before that, clerics are more necromancers than, well, necromancers. I can see how it would be wrong to give them the spell much sooner, but something like a Larloch's Minor Drain as /per day ability, possibly scaling with levels in damage/restore, would be ok. Generally, a spell with uses/day from their school would make mages feel more specialized. Nothing too powerful on low levels, but also nothing that becomes completely useless by midgame (see Branwen's hammer), so level 3 spells, I guess.

    Most kits would not work in the game like they do in PnP, but there are parts of the descriptions that would work and ways to make up for the un-translatable things.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Yaa some of the Specialists Wizards of Schools of Philosophy is hard to implement into the game itself.. but did you know that many kits that you can chose in BG doesn't excist in core version of the DnD... assassins doesn't have x7 backstab (it's exclusive bg Version of assassin from complate thief handbok of Ad&d 2nd edition)for an exampel and so on...

    interesting thing with the specialist mages are that they are not kits.. they are core classes.. wu jeen or savage mage are wizards kit as an exampel from DnD.

    like i said sometimes it might be better be left out or they need some minor redone their benefit... like you said, Illusionist, necromancy and conjurer are those classes that their abilities might not or wont work in a game they might need other changes to fit bg.
    maybe dispel magic or something else instead and so on...
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318

    Some of these things would not work or have zero use in the game. For example, I've never had anyone cast "know alignment" on charname, it's 100 % useless...

    In a roleplayed game such as the one I'm currently playing I think the Know Alignment spell will actually get used... Especially with a Diviner protagonist, as he will be interested in it. But otherwise yeah, it's not a useful spell.
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I meant the immunity to it. If your charname is immune to Know Alignment or not... no-one will ever try to use that spell on you. Would be the same for "immunity to Detect Evil". It's probably quite useful in PnP where people may use either spell against you though.

    There are also many options what abilities specialists could have and that are already in the game otherwise. For example, why does Tiax have the ghast summoning instead of Xzar? It would fit much better for a necromancer to have the ability. Maybe not a ghast from the start; regular skeleton at level 1, then work your way up with a zombie or warrior skeleton at 5 and ghast or ghoul at 10 and so on.
    Or Dynaheir - why Cure Poison? Sure, she's a witch and all and it fits the shaman type, but that's both not really her class and school - a witch would be a sorcerer and a shaman would be a druid. She should invoke something. An ability like "ignite" - fire damage to every hostile creature (with no immunity) in a radius, with improved saves as she levels up. (Kinda like the One Gift Lost amulet ability). If she could do that, I would probably not even kill her each run.
    Conjurer should also summon something. Monster Summoning I as starting ability/day, then scale it to II and III like the necromancer summons. Would feel more conjury than dispel magic (which wouldn't do a thing against summoned creatures). Or as alternative, a per day ability to buff summoned creatures somehow, like Chaos Shield gives a % chance to have a "good surge" - give a conjurer something that increases the chance to summon "better" monsters (within the level of the spell).
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013

    I meant the immunity to it. If your charname is immune to Know Alignment or not... no-one will ever try to use that spell on you. Would be the same for "immunity to Detect Evil". It's probably quite useful in PnP where people may use either spell against you though.

    There are also many options what abilities specialists could have and that are already in the game otherwise. For example, why does Tiax have the ghast summoning instead of Xzar? It would fit much better for a necromancer to have the ability. Maybe not a ghast from the start; regular skeleton at level 1, then work your way up with a zombie or warrior skeleton at 5 and ghast or ghoul at 10 and so on.
    Or Dynaheir - why Cure Poison? Sure, she's a witch and all and it fits the shaman type, but that's both not really her class and school - a witch would be a sorcerer and a shaman would be a druid. She should invoke something. An ability like "ignite" - fire damage to every hostile creature (with no immunity) in a radius, with improved saves as she levels up. (Kinda like the One Gift Lost amulet ability). If she could do that, I would probably not even kill her each run.
    Conjurer should also summon something. Monster Summoning I as starting ability/day, then scale it to II and III like the necromancer summons. Would feel more conjury than dispel magic (which wouldn't do a thing against summoned creatures). Or as alternative, a per day ability to buff summoned creatures somehow, like Chaos Shield gives a % chance to have a "good surge" - give a conjurer something that increases the chance to summon "better" monsters (within the level of the spell).

    I agree with you with everything except the Shaman and Sorcerer (I know they use 3rd editions sorcere and not 2nd edition sorcerer)

    2nd editions:
    Priest Characters All six standard varieties of priest—the cleric, the druid, the
    crusader, the monk, The Mystic and the shaman—can be considered generic enough to be used in any
    campaign setting. In addition, some of the existing specialty priests described in previous
    books can be “folded in” to these basic six priest archetypes.

    *Clerics are militant priests who serve as temple knights, defenders of the faith,
    and guardians of a faith’s holy places. They have very good fighting skills and a wide
    array of spells to choose from. The skills, abilities, and spell selection available to the
    cleric can also describe priests of agriculture, arts, birth/children, community, crafts,
    culture, darkness/night, dawn, death, disease, everything, evil, fate/destiny, fortune/luck,
    good, healing, life-death-rebirth cycle, light, love, marriage, messengers, metalwork,
    mischief/trickery, music/dance, oceans/rivers, prosperity, race, redemption,
    rulership/kingship, sites, sky/weather, sun, trade, and wind.

    *Crusaders are closely related to clerics, but while clerics can be described as
    defenders of the faith, crusaders are weapons against the enemies of the temple they
    serve. They are true soldier-priests, skilled in physical combat and armed with spells
    appropriate for the battlefield. Crusaders include specialty priests of fire, guardianship,
    justice/revenge, lightning, metalwork, race, rulership/kingship, strength, thunder, and
    war.

    *Druids are priests of nature. They are the protectors of the forests or other wild
    places and stewards over all living things placed in their charge. Druids are weaker in
    physical combat than a cleric or crusader, but their spheres of access include a number of
    powerful offensive and defensive elemental spells. In addition, they enjoy several unique
    granted powers. Druids can represent the powers of animals, druid, earth, elemental
    forces, fertility, hunting, moon, nature, seasons, and vegetation.
    Monks are cloistered priests and adepts who seek enlightenment through the
    rigorous training of mind, body, and spirit. Monks are extremely skilled in unarmed
    combat and have access to several unusual spheres of spells. Monks may represent
    specialty priests of competition, divinity of mankind, literature/poetry, magic,
    oracles/prophecy, peace, time, and wisdom.

    Mystics: Mystics are individualistic, itninerant priests. They believe that to serve their deity they need to experience the world, learn about it's hidden nature, and learn how their own inner selves relate to outward things.They have very arreting persionalities and can project their inner strength to influens others through a number of charming powers. Mystics are relatively weak in a toe to toe battle, but have diverse resources to call upon in spell magic, magical items created through mastery of herbalism and candle magic, healing, charm type powers. Because of their persional, free-form aproach toward enlightment they are often hermits,midwives and adventurers.

    Shamans are priests of barbaric or savage cultures. They serve as guides and
    protectors for their tribes. Shamans have fair combat ability and spell access, but they
    also command the spirits of animals, ancestors, and nature. The shaman is a good choice
    for any player character who comes from a barbaric or nomadic culture, and can also
    represent a specialty priest of ancestors, animals, earth, everything, fertility, hunting,
    lightning, oceans/rivers, race, sky/weather, thunder, and wind.

    And those are the 6 classes of priest... we do have 2 of 6 classes in BG....
    Ps. monk in bg are 3rd edition monks not 2nd edition.... monks in 2nd edition reminds us of real fantasy monks of china and japan were they use prayers and spells with unarmed combat... Just look at the Jet Lee movie thats 2nd edition monks:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eova0lSmxGw
    this is real monk....

    2nd edition of sorcerer:

    Sorcerers: They can draw from a pool of
    universal spells, and they have specialties as well. The
    “official” mage of the AD&D® game specializes by
    school (alteration, divination, and so forth). In
    contrast, the sorcerer specializes in two of the four
    elemental provinces—wind, earth, water, and flame—in
    any combination. (No element opposes another.)

    Sorcerers in 4th edition goes almost back to 2nd edition sorcerer
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    I didn't mean her class. I meant her backstory and portrait. From that, Dynaheir resembles a shaman from a native tribe. That's the only thing linking her to Slow Poison - hence she should have a special ability that has to do with her school instead. She's the only mage with an ability-button-ability (Xan and Edwin have special stuff, but it's from their personal items, so that's different) - why a cleric spell? Invoker is a pretty straight forward school for a x/day ability; the spells are hardly situation-specific. It shouldn't be difficult to pick one or come up with a new ("kit" only) spell for that.
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    edited March 2013
    this is how i'd like to see it implemented. every time a specialist mage levels up to access a new spell level. ie. at level 1 they access lvl1 spells, at level 3 they access lvl 2 spells at level 5 lvl 3 spells etc. the specialist mage will be allowed to learn one spell (of the specialist school, from either arcane or divine spell pool) from that caster level which is an instacast, is used once per day and sits in the special abilities tool.

    so at level 1, an invoker will have 2 lvl 1 spell slots in her magebook and 1 chosen evocation spell that will instacast once a day in her special abilities tool bar

    at level 3, an invoker will have 3 lvl 1 spell slots and 2 lvl 2 spells in her magebook and 1 lvl 1 evocation spell and 1 lvl 2 evocation spell in her special abilities tool bar
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013

    I didn't mean her class. I meant her backstory and portrait. From that, Dynaheir resembles a shaman from a native tribe. That's the only thing linking her to Slow Poison - hence she should have a special ability that has to do with her school instead. She's the only mage with an ability-button-ability (Xan and Edwin have special stuff, but it's from their personal items, so that's different) - why a cleric spell? Invoker is a pretty straight forward school for a x/day ability; the spells are hardly situation-specific. It shouldn't be difficult to pick one or come up with a new ("kit" only) spell for that.

    I see... well your right about that..special skills and her portrait.
    mjs said:

    this is how i'd like to see it implemented. every time a specialist mage levels up to access a new spell level. ie. at level 1 they access lvl1 spells, at level 3 they access lvl 2 spells at level 5 lvl 3 spells etc. the specialist mage will be allowed to learn one spell (of the specialist school, from either arcane or divine spell pool) from that caster level which is an instacast, is used once per day and sits in the special abilities tool.

    so at level 1, an invoker will have 2 lvl 1 spell slots in her magebook and 1 chosen evocation spell that will instacast once a day in her special abilities tool bar

    at level 3, an invoker will have 3 lvl 1 spell slots and 2 lvl 2 spells in her magebook and 1 lvl 1 evocation spell and 1 lvl 2 evocation spell in her special abilities tool bar

    Thats very good mjs but only one thing no Divine spell for Specialists in Schools of Philosophy.. thats domain of Specialists in Schools of Thaumaturgy (Shai'rs class specific)

    The Specialists in Schools of Thaumaturgy:

    Spells belonging to a school of thaumaturgy are not linked by philosophy or
    effect—instead, they’re related by the manner in which they are physically cast. In fact,
    the “standard” approach to wizard magic defined by the eight philosophical schools
    represents one common thaumaturgical method. Other thaumaturgical methods include
    the following schools:

    *The School of Alchemy:
    In this approach to magic, spell effects are achieved
    through the combination of unusual material components. Spells such as affect normal
    fires, glitterdust, and cloudkill can all be cast through the use of strange powders and
    reagents, and belong to the school of alchemy.

    *The School of Artifice:
    Artificers are weak in the direct command of magic and instead use various devices and
    magical items to focus their energies. Spells such as Melf’s minute meteors and magic
    staff are included in the school of artifice.

    *The School of Geometry:
    Geometers use diagrams, symbols, and complex
    patterns to cast their spells. Naturally, any spell involving some kind of writing, marking,
    or pattern belongs to the school of geometry, including spells such as explosive runes,
    sepia snake sigil, and symbol.

    *The School of Song:
    While alchemists rely on material components and
    geometers rely on somatic components, a song mage uses the power of his voice to
    summon and shape spell energy. Any spell that involves speaking, singing, or some other
    use of the caster’s vocal powers belongs to the school of song. Sleep, charm monster, and
    Otto’s irresistible dance are all examples of spells of this school.

    *The School of Wild Magic:
    Some wizards have learned to make use of the
    principles of randomness in their magic, giving rise to the school of wild magic. Wild
    mages shape the raw, uncontrollable stuff of magic in the hope that something resembling
    their intended spell will appear.

    *The School Of Shai'rs

    Sha'irs cull magical energy from the Elemental plane to power their spells. Rather than pore over ancient formulas and techniques, these wizards bargain with elemental powers for the magical knowledge they need. Sha'irs do not deal directly with these powers; instead, they rely on familiars, elemental spirits called gen servants (children of genie), to negotiate on their behalf. Dispatching these servants to the Elemental plane each day, a sha'ir replenishes the necessary power and information to wield the forces of creation from their genie master.

    Their unconventional methods, combined with their reputation for consorting with dangerous, often violent, powers (genies), place sha'irs on the fringes of the magical world. Other wizards regard sha'irs with scorn and distrust, believing that they cheat by circumventing the arduous training and research wizards must typically undergo. This mistrust stems from ignorance, however, for even though a sha'ir draws magic from a gen servant and their genie master, a foundation in arcane training is necessary to wield the power he or she gains.

    Since sha'irs do not clutter their minds with mystical formulas and arcane utterances, they have wider access to spells than other wizards enjoy. They need only know a arcane or divines spell's basic structure to request it from their gen servants. The gen servant then vanishes into the Elemental plane, where it bargains with more powerful genie lords to acquire the spell the sha'ir seeks and then returns without fail to provide its master with the energy and means to cast the spell. So even though sha'irs do not employ spellbooks, they have access to the full expanse of wizards' and Clerics most powerful and versatile spells.

    Genies that lend magical knowledge and energy to sha'irs do not do so without an expectation of recompense. Sha'irs often take up the adventurer's life for this reason. They work in the world and beyond as representatives, agents, and servants of their elemental masters. Many times a sha'ir does not even realize that his or her actions are furthering some elemental being's designs, and what might seem to be a normal expedition into the unknown could have consequences not realized for years to come.

    Class Features

    A sha'ir has the following class features, starting at level 1.

    Gen Servant

    Elemental magic bows to no mortal master. Only those steeped in elemental energy or who can broker with the elemental powers can coax forth its magic. You enlist the aid of a minor elemental spirit, a gen servant, to keep you supplied with the magical energy you need to cast your spells. Each day, you dispatch this servant to the Elemental Plane to steal, beg, or borrow this energy from the greater powers residing there. When the servant returns, the energy it brings back floods into your mind.

    A gen servant is an arcane familiar forged from your own essence and that of elemental substance until it adopts a fixed and permanent form. As with any familiar, the characteristics that your gen servant takes on depend on you. The familiar might just be an extension of your magical abilities, or it might develop a distinctive personality, aiding you with knowledge from the Plane Below. How large a part your servant plays in your adventures is up to you.

    Benefit:
    At the end of each extended rest, when your familiar returns from its venture into the Elemental Plane, you can replace one of your wizard and divine spells with another power of the same type. The new power must have a level, and its level must be the same as the old power's level.

    Daolanin (Baby Daos)
    Stoic to the point of rudeness, daolanin tend to be dour and ill-tempered companions. They prefer the truth, even when that truth cuts like a knife. Daolanin are squat creatures with brown or gray skin, dark hair, and brutish features. They are strong and fierce in battle and prove adept at keeping enemies at bay.

    Djinnling (Baby Djinn)

    The mercurial djinnlings often have unpredictable personalities. They are quick to anger, but quicker to forget, tending to drift through many moods with little warning or reason. Djinnlings are short, thin humanoids with blue skin and tousled white hair. They are swift servants, and they can use the winds as weapons to disperse your enemies.

    Efreetkin (Baby Efreet)

    The aggressive and malicious efreetkin resemble their larger cousins in both appearance and temperament. With fiery hair, ruddy skin, and small horns sprouting from their brows, they look like little devils and often behave as such. They delight in causing mischief and are famous for causing trouble for their masters. Despite this tendency, efreetkin are potent allies in battle, and many sha'irs tolerate their wickedness because of the power they offer.

    Maridan

    The playful maridans are a good-natured servants, friendly and personable. They are creatures of elemental water, and their green skin and blue hair help them blend into the depths. Though their spirits are often high, maridans are easily dismayed and might become uncooperative or angry when threatened.

    Maridans are thought to be the most reliable of allies, and their influence on the battlefield can slow enemies and interfere with their attacks.

    *All source are from DnD and the updated 2nd edition to 4th edition version shai'rs are from dnd homepage (i thought they had better description in 4th edition of shai'rs than the 2nd*

    must say i'm all for the specialist bonus that gives them +1 in saves and attack spells of their domain and that bonus gets better when they reach higher lvl
    Post edited by The_Shairs_Handbook on
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