The killer is button size. When you need a toothpick to press the buttons it just is not a good gaming experience.
I totally agree. I think owning an S-Pen device (e.g. Note II) will be great for this game. I've tried BGEE on a 10 inch ipad. Yes, it was controllable, but not very easy though. Much better was the Baldur's Gate Demo with GemRB (available on Playstore) on my Note II. The smaller screen was really no problem thanks to the S-Pen. It's simply amazing for this kind of games! I can only hope BGEE will be playable on it.
Thanks for your hard work and good luck with the Android release!
The killer is button size. When you need a toothpick to press the buttons it just is not a good gaming experience.
I totally agree. I think owning an S-Pen device (e.g. Note II) will be great for this game. I've tried BGEE on a 10 inch ipad. Yes, it was controllable, but not very easy though. Much better was the Baldur's Gate Demo with GemRB (available on Playstore) on my Note II. The smaller screen was really no problem thanks to the S-Pen. It's simply amazing for this kind of games! I can only hope BGEE will be playable on it.
Thanks for your hard work and good luck with the Android release!
Funny how you use the S-Pen as an example when a toothpick is mentioned and still say you "agree" with him...
The killer is button size. When you need a toothpick to press the buttons it just is not a good gaming experience.
I totally agree. I think owning an S-Pen device (e.g. Note II) will be great for this game. I've tried BGEE on a 10 inch ipad. Yes, it was controllable, but not very easy though. Much better was the Baldur's Gate Demo with GemRB (available on Playstore) on my Note II. The smaller screen was really no problem thanks to the S-Pen. It's simply amazing for this kind of games! I can only hope BGEE will be playable on it.
Thanks for your hard work and good luck with the Android release!
Funny how you use the S-Pen as an example when a toothpick is mentioned and still say you "agree" with him...
You need to improve your reading comprehension.
What Trent's meant: Its bad game design if it could only be played with a toothpick, because players don't have access to that level of precision. They are limited by the size of their fingers. Its not bad design because "it needs a toothpick level of precision", its bad design because "it needs a toothpick level of precision and there is no way for players to achieve that".
By that reasoning, having an S-pen negates the whole issue, because now there IS a way to easily achieve the requirements. Nephalis' words are 100% in line with Trent's opinion.
4.5-5.5 inch screens are unsuitable not because they are too small, they are unsuitable because they are too small relative to the touch input device (generally fingers). Having an S pen removes that concern.
Whatever you understand from Trent's comment (or to be more precise: what you wan't to understand from it), this game is not and never will be meant to be played on a friggin cell phone. It's not Doodle Jump. You will be spending ~100hrs playing that if you want to experience everything, and doing "a small session" does not mean 2 minutes of playing, it means 2 hours. Now browse the web for two hours straight with your phone (yes, this is actually comparable. Playing BG means a lot of reading) and tell me again this is a good idea.
Cramming the interface into a 5ish inch screen estate would shrink the buttons to the size of a fingernail. The text in the console would either become really really small and hard to read, or it would take up the entire center part of the interface if it was to scale to the display size. You would have to constantly be switching between the "text" and the "world" view modes. This would be the last nail in the coffin for an interface that is already hard to use by today's standards.
What you seem to forget is that the 1.5" difference between the Nexus 7 and the Note 2 is just the difference in diagonal screen sizes.
Look who's talking. Strong words for someone who is, just like me, interpreting a single line of text posted by a dev.
So? Just because its a single line you don't need to apply logic to your interpretation? You don't have to take into account WHY he is saying its bad when it requires a toothpick?
Now browse the web for two hours straight with your phone (yes, this is actually comparable. Playing BG means a lot of reading) and tell me again this is a good idea.
We're not talking about "a phone", we're talking about a SPECIFIC phone: Note 2 with the S pen.
People do web surfing on their note 2s' ALL THE TIME. People read Ebooks on it with absolutely zero issues. Its MEANT TO BE a more mobile replacement for a 7" tablet/ebook reader. Reading is one of the reasons its the size it is. The S pen is implemented specifically to resolve the issue of accuracy.
Cramming the interface into a 5ish inch screen estate would shrink the buttons to the size of a fingernail.
So?
Can you not see the buttons when its that size? If you can see it, and there is an easy way to press it with absolute precision, whats the issue?
A fingernail sized icon is bigger than your average icon in windows explorer. Why are you not whining about that? I'll tell you why: because the mouse makes clicking that icon inconsequential a task. The exact same way a S pen makes clicking a fingernail sized icon on a 5.5" screen easy.
Small isn't the problem, not being able to press it is. With an S pen, that issue is resolved. You can't seem to grasp the idea that "size of a fingernail" by itself isn't the problem. Lack of accuracy WHEN its the size of a fingernail is.
I played to the bottom of the Nashkel mines on an iPhone 4S. I had a headache for the next few hours. It wasn't a good experience and we made the call to not release on the iPhone. The core issue is indeed the precision, particularly with picking up small items from the ground. We've since added the smart radius code and it is better, but still not awesome on small screens. I'm torn on the concept of the S-pen. A part of me says "release it and let people decide for themselves" The other part of me fears poor review scores and general disappointment because it will be hard to play and uncomfortable if you play for long. I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out ;-)
I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out ;-)
I am tempted, but I think I'll take a rain check on that. I'll buy BG2 first, then think about it later (also the rumours of the Note III are putting my thoughts on pause).
I'm so conflicted. Buy the HTC One and suffer the small screen, go with the Note II, or wait on a potential Note III.
First world problems. The iPhone 4S screen size in only 3.5 inch, with a resolution of 640 * 960. So it's not exactly spectacular. The HTC One is 4.7 inches with 1080 * 1920 resolution. The Note II is 5.5 inches with a resolution of 720 * 1280.
... I have no idea. I'm not a phone guru. PC hardware, sure - phones, nope. Maybe I should just stick to my N97 (which is on the blink)...
I'm torn on the concept of the S-pen. A part of me says "release it and let people decide for themselves" The other part of me fears poor review scores and general disappointment because it will be hard to play and uncomfortable if you play for long. I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out ;-)
-Trent
The fact that the 4S was even usable (albeit relatively poorly) is a big surprise to me. The Note 2 is seriously worlds apart in screen size, not to mention the level of control the S-Pen will offer by comparison. Hopefully your test shows you just how true this is!
I have a TF101 as well as the Note 2, and I'm much more interested in being able to play this on my phone for mobility sake. Obviously its unlikely to be quite as ideal as play on the 10" screen, but I don't want perfection from a computer game running on my phone. I want an awesome, playable gaming experience I can take with me everywhere I go.
Here's hoping you take a chance on it, but cheers to you for the work you're doing either way!
So I tried to hold out for the Android version but failed. I got the Windows version back in January. I have run into a few bugs and reported them, but the worst problem means I'm now unable to play at all and I haven't for the last month.
Have not had regular access to my Windows PC for the past month and it will likely be June before get it back. I was hoping this would not be a problem since I do have a ASUS Transformer TF700. Same Tegra 3 processor as the Nexus 7, a larger screen and high resolution display, and I have the keyboard dock -- It Should be a great system to play BGEE even if it is not the most popular device.
The only problem is -- No Android release yet. The BGEE project has already had a post mortem, meaning the project is now in the "dead" state. That is what post mortem refers to right?
Sure all is not lost, this is a D&D game so a Zombie BGEE Android release is still come according to the post mortem, but still no release date. The lasted word? They are still in the process of getting test devices: "I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out"
Is there a release date in sight? Is there anything I can do to help it come sooner?
look people with cheap c... devices just have to look it in the eye. GAMES WONT RUN WELL on old s.... Deal with it or get a better device. You wouldn't expect crysis to run on a pentium 4 with 2 gigs of ram and a geforce MX would you? Simple solution is higher end devices higher end games.
Well, looks like you got it bass ackwards. Many new devices use the Mali, which they won't be supporting right away. There are a lot more older tablets out there, and sales are what matters. This isn't Crysis, it's a remake of a 14 year old game.
So turn your lack of sympathy on yourself, as it seems that you will be the one crying.
Trent wrote on twitter : "We're still debating what to do on Android smartphones. What does everyone think, should we 1) ship it or 2) Don't support phones"
To be honest, I tried to play a few small games on my 3.7inch phone and my eyes did hurt after a while. Also, I don't think the sensitivity would allow to pick up small items, hit the intended target etc. Smallest screen for normal play of a game the size of BGEE, would probably be a 7". And even that might be a bit too small. According to my experience, 10inch is the perfect size for tablet gaming. So I'd vote for 2).
I has a 2G phone that is so garbage. I dont care about phone. I am talking to person to the face. Wow ur all silly wanting a phone! that is nerds who use phone in cafe. Im c00l I use 7 inch next book 7 or my new bought Nexsus. I hope Trent Oyster is very well. I also hope RR Martin ok too. Not becuase I know them but because of the art they make. I am very fat and selfish.
I am sorry it is no wonder I llike Dorn and Tiax so much. I think in a new universe of enhanced Baldurs Gate Tiax can convert Dorn to Cyric. Then Tiax and Dorn can be drinking friends and go to a belly dancer bar. they will get many belly dancer elf girls to dance but then they will not pay and leave drunk and spent. I think Taix might hide in shadows sneak out as well as Dorn or maybe summon his ghoul and then run away yelling, "TIAX WILL RULE LATER!" If Trent and peeps wanna me ta stop postin I will once android come out... until then I am going to come here and encourage the computer programming thralls to work endlessly fo ma glory... So to all the Baldurs Gate Beamdawg wizzers; Think positively of the pleasure you will give me when I am winning in a Starbucks whilst Tiax Smites goody goody Paladins and I drink creamy caramel mocha and talk to university girls about how handsome and rich I am.
Thanks for all ur efforts I will award u the 20 dolla l8r on ur magnum 7inch opus climax.
Let me put it this way, from my perspective: if BG Enhanced Edition is merely released for tablets and not for, in my case - the Note 2 with support for the stylus as a valid inputdevice, then I'll stick to my original owned BG Series software for the PC and I will play it on my laptop.
I will not change my phablet because of this game ultimately not being made available to it, instead I will simply turn away from the enhanced edition alltogether then.
There's always The Bard's Tale and Lords of Midnight to enjoy on the Note 2.
...The other part of me fears poor review scores and general disappointment because it will be hard to play and uncomfortable if you play for long...
To address this issue you could try releasing a small demo, say the new tutorial you guys made, so the consumer can test it out first without worrying about wasting $10 on an app they can't play. I realize it would be more work to put a demo together, but you might expand your costumer base if you do. Just my 2 cents.
Tiny text needs to be "readable" and tiny objects need to be seen/identified by the user.
To be usable, I suggest that text and objects be sized so that a person with 20/40 vision could play the game. That requirement may preclude the smaller cell phones, for example.
I suggest 20/40 because that encompasses a large part of the population. And, in our State, is the legal minimum requirement for driving a car -- so, its not entirely arbitrary. Most folks do NOT have 20/20 vision -- mostly its worse.
FWIW, my near-vision is 20/12 on a "good eye day" and 20/40 on a "bad eye day" (have "dry eye" at times) -- hence, I have experienced what 20/20 and 20/40 means to cell phone and tablet use.
What I don't get is why you don't add functionality to small screen devices. If looting small objects is an issue, add a "loot all" button that opens up all the nearby loot in a single new interface that's easier to select what you want to grab. (would be a great option for the PC version even...).
Same for attacking targets. Open a new UI to choose who you want to attack, so you don't need the precision of a pen.
If you ported an entire game over, adding stuff like that shouldn't be incredibly difficult. That is unless you're not allowed to make those kinds of changes... but then what would be the point of updating the game if you can't really update it's functionality?
Sony Tablet S please! (The predecessor to the Xperia S) I expect this tablet is fairly generic, it doesn't have any hardware buttons or anything too specialised, although I don't know what factors you might have to take into account for it to be a stable, functional game. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Tablet_S
Comments
Thanks for your hard work and good luck with the Android release!
Anyway, i think he meant devices without any similiar gadget. That's why i could agree on it.
What Trent's meant: Its bad game design if it could only be played with a toothpick, because players don't have access to that level of precision. They are limited by the size of their fingers. Its not bad design because "it needs a toothpick level of precision", its bad design because "it needs a toothpick level of precision and there is no way for players to achieve that".
By that reasoning, having an S-pen negates the whole issue, because now there IS a way to easily achieve the requirements. Nephalis' words are 100% in line with Trent's opinion.
4.5-5.5 inch screens are unsuitable not because they are too small, they are unsuitable because they are too small relative to the touch input device (generally fingers). Having an S pen removes that concern.
Cramming the interface into a 5ish inch screen estate would shrink the buttons to the size of a fingernail. The text in the console would either become really really small and hard to read, or it would take up the entire center part of the interface if it was to scale to the display size. You would have to constantly be switching between the "text" and the "world" view modes. This would be the last nail in the coffin for an interface that is already hard to use by today's standards.
What you seem to forget is that the 1.5" difference between the Nexus 7 and the Note 2 is just the difference in diagonal screen sizes.
We're not talking about "a phone", we're talking about a SPECIFIC phone: Note 2 with the S pen.
People do web surfing on their note 2s' ALL THE TIME. People read Ebooks on it with absolutely zero issues. Its MEANT TO BE a more mobile replacement for a 7" tablet/ebook reader. Reading is one of the reasons its the size it is. The S pen is implemented specifically to resolve the issue of accuracy.
So?
Can you not see the buttons when its that size? If you can see it, and there is an easy way to press it with absolute precision, whats the issue?
A fingernail sized icon is bigger than your average icon in windows explorer. Why are you not whining about that? I'll tell you why: because the mouse makes clicking that icon inconsequential a task. The exact same way a S pen makes clicking a fingernail sized icon on a 5.5" screen easy.
Small isn't the problem, not being able to press it is. With an S pen, that issue is resolved. You can't seem to grasp the idea that "size of a fingernail" by itself isn't the problem. Lack of accuracy WHEN its the size of a fingernail is.
I'm torn on the concept of the S-pen. A part of me says "release it and let people decide for themselves" The other part of me fears poor review scores and general disappointment because it will be hard to play and uncomfortable if you play for long.
I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out ;-)
-Trent
I'm so conflicted. Buy the HTC One and suffer the small screen, go with the Note II, or wait on a potential Note III.
First world problems. The iPhone 4S screen size in only 3.5 inch, with a resolution of 640 * 960. So it's not exactly spectacular. The HTC One is 4.7 inches with 1080 * 1920 resolution. The Note II is 5.5 inches with a resolution of 720 * 1280.
... I have no idea. I'm not a phone guru. PC hardware, sure - phones, nope. Maybe I should just stick to my N97 (which is on the blink)...
I have a TF101 as well as the Note 2, and I'm much more interested in being able to play this on my phone for mobility sake. Obviously its unlikely to be quite as ideal as play on the 10" screen, but I don't want perfection from a computer game running on my phone. I want an awesome, playable gaming experience I can take with me everywhere I go.
Here's hoping you take a chance on it, but cheers to you for the work you're doing either way!
Have not had regular access to my Windows PC for the past month and it will likely be June before get it back. I was hoping this would not be a problem since I do have a ASUS Transformer TF700. Same Tegra 3 processor as the Nexus 7, a larger screen and high resolution display, and I have the keyboard dock -- It Should be a great system to play BGEE even if it is not the most popular device.
The only problem is -- No Android release yet. The BGEE project has already had a post mortem, meaning the project is now in the "dead" state. That is what post mortem refers to right?
Sure all is not lost, this is a D&D game so a Zombie BGEE Android release is still come according to the post mortem, but still no release date. The lasted word? They are still in the process of getting test devices: "I think the answer is to go out and buy a Note 2 and try it out"
Is there a release date in sight? Is there anything I can do to help it come sooner?
We are optimizing the Android builds for performance. The current performance is not great and we're trying to bring it up.
So turn your lack of sympathy on yourself, as it seems that you will be the one crying.
To be honest, I tried to play a few small games on my 3.7inch phone and my eyes did hurt after a while. Also, I don't think the sensitivity would allow to pick up small items, hit the intended target etc.
Smallest screen for normal play of a game the size of BGEE, would probably be a 7". And even that might be a bit too small. According to my experience, 10inch is the perfect size for tablet gaming.
So I'd vote for 2).
Hahaha thats so funny,
I am sorry it is no wonder I llike Dorn and Tiax so much. I think in a new universe of enhanced Baldurs Gate Tiax can convert Dorn to Cyric. Then Tiax and Dorn can be drinking friends and go to a belly dancer bar. they will get many belly dancer elf girls to dance but then they will not pay and leave drunk and spent. I think Taix might hide in shadows sneak out as well as Dorn or maybe summon his ghoul and then run away yelling, "TIAX WILL RULE LATER!" If Trent and peeps wanna me ta stop postin I will once android come out... until then I am going to come here and encourage the computer programming thralls to work endlessly fo ma glory... So to all the Baldurs Gate Beamdawg wizzers; Think positively of the pleasure you will give me when I am winning in a Starbucks whilst Tiax Smites goody goody Paladins and I drink creamy caramel mocha and talk to university girls about how handsome and rich I am.
Thanks for all ur efforts I will award u the 20 dolla l8r on ur magnum 7inch opus climax.
I will not change my phablet because of this game ultimately not being made available to it, instead I will simply turn away from the enhanced edition alltogether then.
There's always The Bard's Tale and Lords of Midnight to enjoy on the Note 2.
Tiny text needs to be "readable" and tiny objects need to be seen/identified by the user.
To be usable, I suggest that text and objects be sized so that a person with 20/40 vision could play the game. That requirement may preclude the smaller cell phones, for example.
I suggest 20/40 because that encompasses a large part of the population. And, in our State, is the legal minimum requirement for driving a car -- so, its not entirely arbitrary. Most folks do NOT have 20/20 vision -- mostly its worse.
FWIW, my near-vision is 20/12 on a "good eye day" and 20/40 on a "bad eye day" (have "dry eye" at times) -- hence, I have experienced what 20/20 and 20/40 means to cell phone and tablet use.
Same for attacking targets. Open a new UI to choose who you want to attack, so you don't need the precision of a pen.
If you ported an entire game over, adding stuff like that shouldn't be incredibly difficult. That is unless you're not allowed to make those kinds of changes... but then what would be the point of updating the game if you can't really update it's functionality?
I expect this tablet is fairly generic, it doesn't have any hardware buttons or anything too specialised, although I don't know what factors you might have to take into account for it to be a stable, functional game.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony_Tablet_S
Thanks!!
- Steve