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You're most under-used NPC's?

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  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    I know I've said it a lot since I signed-up here, but if you're already with an established Cleric, adding a Druid healer would compliment him/her.

    If I want a second divine caster, then I agree that a Druid and a Cleric is more interesting than two Clerics or two Druids. However, I don't usually find a second divine caster necessary, so I'd more likely take someone with other skills in that slot. And when I do want two divine casters, I'll probably already have Jaheira with me (whom I generally find more useful because she can fight as well as cast). Or in my current run, I want two divine casters but my Charname is a Berserker->Druid. So I've never yet found a space for Faldorn, although one day I might.

  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747


    Not sure how a Druid is an inferior healer compared to a Cleric in BG:EE. Explain?

    Quite easily explained: I meant "divine caster", not "healer". Druids miss out on the "essential" divine low level spells (Command is a big one) and get silly shit (Goodberries?!) instead. They only become powerful from level 3 spells on. Before that, pure clerics are by far more useful than pure druids.

  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    Here are my never finished withs:

    Alora
    Dorn (in a current play through)
    Edwin (in a current play through)
    Eldoth
    Faldorn
    Kagain (in a current play through)
    Montaron
    Safana
    Shar-teel (in a current play through)
    Skie
    Tiax
    Xzar

    The above mostly stem from the fact i've never played evil or they're too late in the game
  • Copastetic1985Copastetic1985 Member Posts: 277

    I know I've said it a lot since I signed-up here, but if you're already with an established Cleric, adding a Druid healer would compliment him/her.

    If I want a second divine caster, then I agree that a Druid and a Cleric is more interesting than two Clerics or two Druids. However, I don't usually find a second divine caster necessary, so I'd more likely take someone with other skills in that slot. And when I do want two divine casters, I'll probably already have Jaheira with me (whom I generally find more useful because she can fight as well as cast). Or in my current run, I want two divine casters but my Charname is a Berserker->Druid. So I've never yet found a space for Faldorn, although one day I might.

    Keep in mind, I don't play the vanilla game. It's SCS or bust. If we're talking about vanilla, then by all means, use whoever you like, it doesn't matter in the least.

    I HAVE to run a heal and prot build in each game. Along with two tanks, a mage/thief ( Imoen) and my PC which is a Skald during this play through.

    I played Guild Wars for a good five years and did a lot of PvP so this set-up is ingrained in me now days.
    It also helps immensely for me in SCS.

    To me, a Cleric in BG1 shouldn't be focusing on trying to out-heal damage. It can't. What it can do reasonably well is prevent it with Bless, Chant, Protection from Evil, Remove Fear, etc. Unless you're a PC Cleric ( my last game ) you're not going to have enough slots to run a hybrid build through SCS. You also will be having to rebuff because of the extremely common Dispel Magic, trying to offer some ranged assistance and, offering the occasional heal if you have time.

    It's pretty freakin' chaotic.

    In steps the Avenger Healer Druid. Soul reason for existence: Heal, Web, and Slow Poison. With a Dispel Magic or two since Druid caps at 10.
    The Avenger allows the Cleric to focus on keeping his/her party buffs up constantly as soon as they expire or are removed. Having a total of +4 Saves, +2 to hit, +2 dmg, and -2 AC is outstanding and during a lot of the fights, its a must.

    Annnd, the Avenger is pretty self-explanatory. Heal, Web for your tanks, and keep party members clean of poison.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    Keep in mind, I don't play the vanilla game. It's SCS or bust. If we're talking about vanilla, then by all means, use whoever you like, it doesn't matter in the least.

    Ah, I see. Yes, I'm playing unmodded for the time being. I might install SCS later, but for the time being there's plenty more I want to explore with the new possibilities offered by the BG2 engine in the BG1 game which I haven't yet tried. (No, I wasn't using Tutu to do this before BGee came out, I was playing BG1 in the BG1 engine until now, so being able to use the BG2 classes and kits in BG1 is a new experience for me.)
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219

    @The_Shairs_Handbook: Then you have to claim that every NPC with an ability is "cheating and overpowered". Ironically, you kill Minsc and Edwin (for what alignment does that make sense?!), but leave Viconia with her 50 % natural magic resistance alive, which is even further away from what a charname can get.
    And then, I also don't think NPCs need to be gimped, inferior versions of possible charnames. They aren't charnames and they don't need to be seen as "could I do that? If no, the NPC sucks and is OP". They are allies, and who would want allies that can bring absolutely nothing special to the table?

    Actually Viconia should have 20% exp penelty cuz she is a drow and she gets drow benefit...
    and once again if Edwin is based on red wizard he should have also red wizard penelty.... only people who are edwin loving fanatics can't se he is to op.... give viconia 20% exp penelty and Edwin another school of magic that he can't cast from evocation would be perfect... then they will be balanced....
    the reason why i kill minc cuz i simply don't like him and Biowere forces me to use him in BG2 and edwin well he killed Dynaheir and anyone who knows the core party are Jahira, Khalid, Minsc, Dynaheir and Imoen... so why i kill him is just Rp... charname kills someone who killed charnames friend... in this case Dynaheir was charnames friend... so it is nautrally to kill edwin... all else feels only wrong if you play core...
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    But Edwin is a CONJURER KIT MAGE, not a Red Wizard of Thay kit. Sure, he should be and yadda yadda, but he isn't. If he was given the kit, people would want it for charnames because "OMG NPCs can't have anything my charname can't have" and it would make no sense, ever, to have a 20 years old Red Wizard of Thay who grew up in Candlekeep. So why should a conjurer have penalties and other mages shouldn't? As we've already covered in the topic about making mage "kits" more specialized, NONE of them has all benefits or penalties. All mage NPCs have exactly the same deal, and Edwin has an item that gives him an edge (and balance his awful non-intelligence stats).
    Viconia also shouldn't get any penalties, because really, why? Because charname can't have the magic resistance? Then you need to gimp every NPC to below average stats and take all abilities away. Because charname will also not get the ability to summon a ghast or hammer, or wield Moonblade or berzerk as a ranger.

    "I kill Minsc because Bioware forces me to use him in BG2" is probably the silliest reason I have ever heard for killing an NPC. No-one forces you to use anything in BG2. You are free to recruit or dismiss every NPC and take someone else instead. You can solo BG2 if you hate all NPCs. Killing Minsc because of BIOWARE is also not "just Rp". Bioware doesn't even exist in the world your roleplay takes place in. And if Dynaheir is your friend, it's a pretty jerky move to kill her bodyguard. May I ask why you also kill Jaheira? No wait, the reason is likely not better, and I already used my facepalm/day ability today.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Drow Special Disadvantages: -2 penalty, and opponents gain a +2 save against drow spells if they are within the light. When
    a drow is in darkness and his opponents are in the light, he retains his Dexterity and surprise
    advantages but still suffers a penalty on attack rolls.
    If the drow spends more than two weeks away from the subterranean caverns of the
    Underdark, the special advantages fade at the rate of one power a day. This starts from the
    most innate spellcasting and works down to the least powerful. Thus, a drow priest would first
    lose dispel magic, followed by suggestion, clairvoyance, and detect lie. Drow magic
    resistance is lost at a rate of 10% per day. This process can be halted and the powers regained
    if the drow returns to the Underdark and spends one day there for each week spent
    aboveground....Additional Experience Cost: 20%.

    Viconia has the benefit of the drow but not the Disadvantages... that makes her op cuz why should we chose the other clerics in the game??? only reason we chose them if we like them...

    And edwin is based on red wizard... sure they haven't introduced the red wizard to the charname but as you always say red wizard comes from thay and thats on the other side of the planet... so it's would be wierd if the charname would be a red wizard... edwin is based on red wizard and thats why he have that necless. red wizard can cast one additional spell per day than a speical mage but they also have 2 opposed school not one... in edwin case divination and invocation/evocation (I do think he had those as opposed school before BgEE) should be Applied to better balanced game... Edwen should be able to cast more spells per day but he should have fewer spells to select for the sake of all other spelcasters in the game... or else it is no point to get other spellcaste than edwen in your party...

    Like I said only people who are in love with edwin and blindly in love with Viconia that can't see that they are op.. I love Viconia but i still say she is op

    Ps.@Kid my playstyle doesn't matter what i do or not do... what we are talking here is technical stuff....and thats it.... no emotion no feelings... just hard cold facts... on whats op and whats weak followers
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    I'm not sure I get the idea of game balance here. Balanced toward what? In the mmo world it makes sense that no build should be overpowered as compared to another, but in a single player game it makes no difference.
    If you believe that Edwin or Viconia are overpowered as compared to CHARNAME, you have the option of not using those characters. You need not even talk to them in game. Some people however may wish to use them as is, so why take away those people's enjoyment?
    If Indeed Edwin is overpowered, I would like someone to solo the game with him, by making a completely useless CHARNAME to go along with him. Not an easy task to accomplish I assure you.
    Why people seem to think that CHARNAME needs to be king bada$$ at everything ill never know. Don't even try the bhaalspawn excuse either because ((spoiler)) one of the NPCs is a bhaalspawn as well and she sure doesn't have straight 18 stats.
    If you don't like an NPC because you think they are over or under powered as compared to the other NPCs just don't use them, plenty of others to fill the spot.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Delvarian said:

    I'm not sure I get the idea of game balance here. Balanced toward what? In the mmo world it makes sense that no build should be overpowered as compared to another, but in a single player game it makes no difference.
    If you believe that Edwin or Viconia are overpowered as compared to CHARNAME, you have the option of not using those characters. You need not even talk to them in game. Some people however may wish to use them as is, so why take away those people's enjoyment?
    If Indeed Edwin is overpowered, I would like someone to solo the game with him, by making a completely useless CHARNAME to go along with him. Not an easy task to accomplish I assure you.
    Why people seem to think that CHARNAME needs to be king bada$$ at everything ill never know. Don't even try the bhaalspawn excuse either because ((spoiler)) one of the NPCs is a bhaalspawn as well and she sure doesn't have straight 18 stats.
    If you don't like an NPC because you think they are over or under powered as compared to the other NPCs just don't use them, plenty of others to fill the spot.

    Quastion here is not what we feel about individual followers persionality... some have nice,, some funnys and so on... what we are talking here is if we take all specialty wizard followers and band them togheter they should be equal in therm of special wizard kit... in edwin case he are based on red wizard so the easiest to get to close to red wizard class without introducing a new class to bg is givin him a item that makes him to cast more spells per day than all other speciall wizard. plus conjurere in orginall PnP had divination and evocation as opposed school... in BgEE thay have taken away one addional opposed school... but they should have keept edwein opposed school for balanced sake.... still in bg2 with both divination and evocation as opposed school edwin kicked ass.... now he is more powerful cuz he can cast evocation...

    and when it come to introducing a drow follower they should aslo introduce drow Disadvantages as they gain lvl slowier than all other races or that they lose their magical resistance when they are outside in a sunny place....

    the key to a good game is to make all followers in a game balanced with all other followers in the game but also making them interesting without making them op against all other follower of the same class...... i'm not saying that they should be balanced against the Charname... the charname has bhalspawn power that makes him op... but thats the story of bg games and nothing to change... would be wierd...
  • FoggyFoggy Member Posts: 297
    BG1:
    Most used: Minsc, Coran, Shar Teel, Edwin, Imoen, Branwen, Jaheira
    Least used: Rasaad (probably worth it in BG2EE), Montaron, Alora, Garrick, Eldoth, Faldorn, Xan, Tiax

    BG2:
    Most used: Imoen, Sarevok, Keldorn, Minsc+Aerie or Korgan+Viconia, Haer' Dalis
    Least used: Jan (his voiceset-especially ToB lines- and stupid stories annoys the hell out of me), Yoshimo, Cernd, Anomen
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    If every NPC is balanced with each other then it makes no difference who you take the game will be just as boring with every one. People are not the same do not fit molds and neither should NPCs in an RPG - it's their differences that makes them and using them interesting.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Delvarian said:

    Your taking your opinion of what makes a good game (balanced NPCs) and stating it as fact. I have to disagree here, as BG does not have NPCs that are all balanced and yet it has been a popular game for like 15 years.

    yes it is a popular game... and I like it... but still it has nothing to do with that some npc followers are broken (to op or to weak).. the only reason why they don't fix this problem with edwin and viconia is that people are toooooooooooooooooooo attached to them... love makes us blind and angry after all and logic will be the last thing we see...
    so bascilly thay are to afraid to balance some of the op followers... instead it is easier to add new follower npc to the game than change something...

    In Pnp point of view no sane Dm would allow npc with benefits of Edwin or viconia in their game... they would nerf them or give them extra Special Disadvantages...
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418
    There are no NPCs in PnP - they are all PCs - apples and oranges is what PnP vs BG is...
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    I'm not in love with Edwin, it was just one night, and it meant nothing. He never even answered any of my calls afterward...
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013
    Wanderon said:

    There are no NPCs in PnP - they are all PCs - apples and oranges is what PnP vs BG is...

    They are called henchment :P
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    edited March 2013
    And Branwen is "based on" a priest of Tempus, but she isn't one - she's a vanilla cleric. Just like Edwin is "based on" a Red Wizard but isn't one. That's why Branwen can summon a hammer and your cleric charname can't, and that's why Edwin has a necklace and you don't. It's completely pointless to discuss what benefits or penalties from kits THAT ARE NOT IN THE GAME (hint!) NPCs should have.

    There are also plenty of reasons why people would take other NPCs, and I don't even count "OMG SO OP my charname looks like a whimp compared to them" as a reason. For starters, both Viconia and Edwin are evil; Viconia gives a rep drop; both have medicore-at-best stats; both have other (popular, early game) NPCs that have a chance of fighting them; if your party has only room for one arcane caster, Edwin's lack of Identify can be a problem, oh, and there are - as for most things - a million individual roleplay reasons for taking other mages and clerics. No-one forces either of them on you; you can just ignore them. Unless, of course, the sheer existance of these insanely overpowered godlike creatures in the same world is too crushing for charname's ego.

    It's also funny how the walking Forgotten Realms wiki seriously brings the "but charname is an op bhaalspawn" point in direct response to "and don't start with charname is a bhaalspawn". Do you even read what others post?

    @Delvarian - I did a run with assassin charname and Edwin in BG2. Even with his improved necklace, it's less fun than I hoped it would be. And no, I didn't finish the run.
  • WanderonWanderon Member Posts: 1,418

    Wanderon said:

    There are no NPCs in PnP - they are all PCs - apples and oranges is what PnP vs BG is...

    They are called henchment :P
    Never played PnP but I don't think PnP "henchmen" qualify as equal to CRPG companions in a single player game - (as far as I know there are no single player games in PnP)

    in any event trying to force 100% PnP rules into BG is never going to be successful and attempting it is more likely to detract from the current game than improve it - why? Because it's apples and oranges.
  • Magnus_GrelichMagnus_Grelich Member Posts: 361
    @CartooN: *Your*
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Delvarian said:

    I'm not in love with Edwin, it was just one night, and it meant nothing. He never even answered any of my calls afterward...

    I'll tell him to recharge his cell when he gets back from the shower.

  • StickanStickan Member Posts: 136
    I really love that many of the NPCs have something unique to set them apart from Charname and eachother. If anything I'd wish they would be even more different!
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    @kid chill down a little bit you are tooo emotional...
    first of all Cleric of diffrient gods should have at least one spell that their cleric can specifically cast.
    In later dnd games you can chose gods or chose which spell domain to have as cleric...

    BG:
    Cleric of tempus :branwen has that hammer spell and thats a good choice
    Cleric of shar: Viconia she should have darkness spell (don't know if she has any special spells that only she can cast but not other cleric at the moment.
    Cleric of Moradin: Yuslik should also have that hammer spell
    cleric of Garl Glittergold: Quayle should have glitterdust
    Cleric of cyric : Tiax should have Confusion
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Yeah, I just have a very short fuse when people don't even read postings by others and present their opinions as facts. Most of the time you just copypaste walls of text from a Forgotten Realms wiki to make a point, yet ignore/overread the reasons others give you for why that's not going to work.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    edited March 2013

    Yeah, I just have a very short fuse when people don't even read postings by others and present their opinions as facts. Most of the time you just copypaste walls of text from a Forgotten Realms wiki to make a point, yet ignore/overread the reasons others give you for why that's not going to work.

    copy paste can be usefull when talking to people that don't know anything about forgotten realms(got more than 20 years of experience when it comes to the realms 2nd edition,3rd edition and 4th edition included)...
    2nd english is not my first language it's the 4th language I know so once again copy paste can be effective way for me to go around language hindrances.

    and now back to topic....
    hmmm Tiax must be the least used npc I have used in Bg
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    You would like Tiax, he isn't overpowered, though he does rule all.
  • The_Shairs_HandbookThe_Shairs_Handbook Member Posts: 219
    Delvarian said:

    You would like Tiax, he isn't overpowered, though he does rule all.

    He is charming.... I give you that.. gona try him on the next run :)

    at the moment i'm using only neutral party... that is safana, Xan,ski, Branwen and Quayle... working down on durlags tower...i'm still amazed how good this party is ... :)

    so far i noticed the lowest lvl you can get safana,xan and quayle is lvl 2 (actually lowest lvl you can get quayle without cheating is lvl 3/3)

    Tiax and alora... least used by me... gona try them on the next run
  • KidCarnivalKidCarnival Member Posts: 3,747
    Delvarian said:

    You would like Tiax, he isn't overpowered, though he does rule all.

    Are you insane? That overpowered little bastard can summon a ghast! NO charname ever can keep up with that!

    As for the subtle language brag - English isn't my first either, but I find it much easier to discuss with opinions expressed in own words. In many cases, a huge wall of text is rather counterproductive because it contains information that is irrelevant to the topic.
  • DelvarianDelvarian Member Posts: 1,232
    The only answer is to lower the NPCs stats to all 8s
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Delvarian said:

    You would like Tiax, he isn't overpowered, though he does rule all.

    Are you insane? That overpowered little bastard can summon a ghast! NO charname ever can keep up with that!

    As for the subtle language brag - English isn't my first either, but I find it much easier to discuss with opinions expressed in own words. In many cases, a huge wall of text is rather counterproductive because it contains information that is irrelevant to the topic.
    Tiax's ghast is useful to take basilisk hunting
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