Hearhear! New fun weapons! Possibly specifically designed for classes/kits. (But not with making them only usable by that class, just bit better for them.)
OOOOOh! I would also like to have dagger(s) that looks like a short sword! For mages. To look cool.
The Fallen Paladins are still more-or-less Good-aligned. They just lack the discipline, honor, and restraint to remain LG Paladins. That would not be a good Blackguard stronghold. I'd much prefer Overhaul take the time to make a quest where an Evil-aligned CHARNAME of any class can take over the lair of the red dragon or the shadow dragon and manage/improve it a la a Dungeon Keeper type of deal.
In 3e falled paladins can trade their paladin levels for blackguard levels. Taking the fallen paladins and convincing them to make similar pacts to become blackguards sounds exactly the sort of quest that would be appropriate.
@Wowo I am aware of this, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this instance. The Fallen Paladins in this particular quest are still "the good guys," they're just no longer Lawful Good and no longer Paladins.
@Wowo I am aware of this, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this instance. The Fallen Paladins in this particular quest are still "the good guys," they're just no longer Lawful Good and no longer Paladins.
That's why it makes a good quest to actually do the work and bring them to the dark side.
Depending on your actual approach you could do it via manipulation, trickiery or a number of different ways depending on the attributes of your character.
OP specifically said that the power level of the weapons is not important to him. He wants the weapons to do unique things and cater to different character builds. Celestial Fury, Equalizer, Sling of Everard, Zerth Blade, The Sleeper, Wave, and Club of Detonation are all unique, but not every proficiency/type has iterations like that. For instance, the scimitars are all vanilla enchanted weapons.
Yeah, I know the OP said that the power level wasn't important. But given how many unique (but not necessarily hugely powerful) weapons there already are in the game, I just didn't believe him.
You mentioned scimitars but Belm, for example, has a name, a unique graphic and a backstory to go with it. Only the actual stats are vanilla (scimitar of speed). Other scimitars with backstories include Rashad's Talon, Spectral Brand, Twinkle and Icingdeath.
OP specifically said that the power level of the weapons is not important to him. He wants the weapons to do unique things and cater to different character builds. Celestial Fury, Equalizer, Sling of Everard, Zerth Blade, The Sleeper, Wave, and Club of Detonation are all unique, but not every proficiency/type has iterations like that. For instance, the scimitars are all vanilla enchanted weapons.
Yeah, I know the OP said that the power level wasn't important. But given how many unique (but not necessarily hugely powerful) weapons there already are in the game, I just didn't believe him.
You mentioned scimitars but Belm, for example, has a name, a unique graphic and a backstory to go with it. Only the actual stats are vanilla (scimitar of speed). Other scimitars with backstories include Rashad's Talon, Spectral Brand, Twinkle and Icingdeath.
I think the OP was referring to unique weapons that create some new gameplay.
@karnor00 As @Wowo said, when we say "unique" we're talking about unusual game mechanics, like Equalizer's alignment bonuses, or Harbinger's 5% chance of dropping a fireball on your target.
Until you take your new troupe of blackguards back to their former holy temple, slaughter everyone and convert it to a temple of the dark powers?
If I remember right, they're Knights of the Radiant Heart. You kill everybody in there and the entire Athkatlan city guard is going to know about it. Taking over a villain's former lair and it being an Evil-alignment Stronghold rather than a class Stronghold is a much more elegant solution.
@Eudaemonium is quite astute. Dorn and Default Bio Blackguard CHARNAME made pacts with fiendish overlords, not gods. Blackguards can often worship Evil gods like Bane or Talos, too, but that's not how Overhaul is focusing the Blackguard's flavor.
What's the difference between a fiendish overlord and a god? Please elaborate I don't get the distinction. Aren't Blackguards powers divine in nature?
What's the difference between a fiendish overlord and a god? Please elaborate I don't get the distinction. Aren't Blackguards powers divine in nature?
The difference is that they aren't gods. Demons, devils, and gods are different sorts of beings from one another. Gods depend on worshipers and are considerably more powerful than even the strongest demons or devils (except maybe Asmodeus himself and some of the Demon Princes). Fiends don't need worshipers to determine their relative level of power, but having cults worship them does extend their influence in the Prime Material Plane.
What's the difference between a fiendish overlord and a god? Please elaborate I don't get the distinction. Aren't Blackguards powers divine in nature?
The difference is that they aren't gods. Demons, devils, and gods are different sorts of beings from one another. Gods depend on worshipers and are considerably more powerful than even the strongest demons or devils (except maybe Asmodeus himself and some of the Demon Princes). Fiends don't need worshipers to determine their relative level of power, but having cults worship them does extend their influence in the Prime Material Plane.
@Schneidend Right but aren't Blackguard's "divine" casters, as in their power derives from a god? Regardless of overlord/demon/mailman who taught them how to channel it?
@smeagolheart Divine powers come from an outside source that works through you, rather than exerting your will over energy like an Arcane caster does. It does not necessarily have to come from a deity. Druids get divine spellcasting without having to worship a god. In Dorn's case, his powers come from the demon lord he made a pact with. CHARNAME could be roleplayed likewise, or you could pretend to worship a particular deity. I choose the former.
@Schneidend ----- From Forgotten Realms wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/ Divine magic Magic that originates from a spell-granting deity, usually through prayer, is divine in nature and is called the Power by the common folk. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers and many prestige classes all derive their spells and spell-like abilities from a deity. A practitioner of the Power has no affinity with the Art, as their spells are planted in their minds directly by their patron deity, and they do not tap the Weave. Casting divine spells is more like an exclamation of faith that brings about a sensation appropriate to the patron deity to whom the faith was devoted.
Deities in the Forgotten Realms The gods worshiped by the regular people of Faerûn, its monsters, and even its lesser deities are the subject of many sourcebooks. -------------
My understanding is that Divine magic comes from the gods. Druid, Cleric, whatever. Even if it's tapped or channelled from a demon lord or whatever doesn't matter, there is a deity behind the power. There is no divine magic without a deity.
Deities don't grant powers to people who don't worship them or aren't advancing their portfolio. Blackguards don't have to worship a deity in any iteration of D&D. Blackguards can get their powers from any significantly powerful evil/dark entity. Dorn doesn't cast spells from Bane, or Talos. He gets his spells from his fiendish patron, period.
I wonder if we'll get to meet him at some point. Dorn mentions the Abyss in one dialogue, which implies that he's probably Tan'nari (or however you spell it).
Deities don't grant powers to people who don't worship them or aren't advancing their portfolio. Blackguards don't have to worship a deity in any iteration of D&D. Blackguards can get their powers from any significantly powerful evil/dark entity. Dorn doesn't cast spells from Bane, or Talos. He gets his spells from his fiendish patron, period.
Um, the Fendish patron can be a Deity. And in fact, it should be a being of sufficient power to actually be able to bestow those powers. So you are probably talking about a Demi-God or at minimum some major name Demon or Devil. I don't see the reason to split hairs here. At the end of the day, a Blackguard needs a patron of sufficient power.
Again, it is a CRPG, so some things you just have to take and suspend your disbelief a little bit.
As far as the OP's original point, I don't see the need for "More unique weapons". I think that if they proliferate, it cheapens the ones that are there. To me, a Unique weapon should be a once in a career find, not something that you find stacked in the corner with the other 'Name' weapons you found. D3 has an abundance of name weapons, and none of them feel of any use or value.
In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin both find name weapons, but when Bilbo gets his, it is merely 'an elvish blade'. One of the dwarves later comments that weapons only get a name after being used in Great Deeds. That's how it should be in my mind. And considering the proliferation of magic in the D&D CRPG universe, most +3 weapons and below should merely be just that. A +3 weapon. IMHO.
@the_spyder I'm not the one splitting hairs. smeagol is insisting Blackguards need to get their powers from deities. That simply isn't the case, and Dorn proves that. I am well aware that the fiendish patron can be a deity. I never asserted otherwise.
Also, as others have, you're misunderstanding the request, here. OP wants weapons and armor that do cool stuff besides better AC, more damage, or better to-hit. What is being asked for are things like Harbinger, Cursed Sword of Berserking, Flame of the North, and Equalizer that do interesting stuff mechanically. He's not asking for cool backstories and fancy names, necessarily.
And who says anyone missed the point? I think adding weapons that have non combat abilities Should be ultra rare. And for pretty much the reasons I listed.
And who says anyone missed the point? I think adding weapons that have non combat abilities Should be ultra rare. And for pretty much the reasons I listed.
Not so much non-combat abilities as abilities that aren't basic enchantments, like magic resistance, stunning effects, etc. If you think those should be rare, then I am inclined to disagree. Mechanical variety is more important to me than some arbitrary "feel" or "atmosphere" regarding magical weaponry.
And who says anyone missed the point? I think adding weapons that have non combat abilities Should be ultra rare. And for pretty much the reasons I listed.
Not so much non-combat abilities as abilities that aren't basic enchantments, like magic resistance, stunning effects, etc. If you think those should be rare, then I am inclined to disagree. Mechanical variety is more important to me than some arbitrary "feel" or "atmosphere" regarding magical weaponry.
Divine magic comes from a divine source.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_magic Divine magic (the Power) is granted from prayer with the gods. Clerics, Paladins and Rangers, predominantly use this type of magic. Druids use magic that is similar to divine magic, but it is derived more from nature and the Weave than gods.
I do understand your point of a fiendish patron helping out and leading the way to a deity of some sort. But unless that thing is a god of some sort it is not possible in FR for it to provide divine magic. There is a Power behind the patron.
Maybe it's splitting hairs I'm not sure what else I can point to convince you since I've linked the evidence.
The proof so far you've brought is flavor from a character's biography. I believe official mechanics over that. If you have some other evidence then I'm willing to reconsider.
I won't labor this point anymore. If I haven't budged you from your position, then let's agree to disagree.
I won't labor this point anymore. If I haven't budged you from your position, then let's agree to disagree.
Your own evidence provides the exception.
1. Druids don't worship gods for their divine power. They get their spells from a source that is not a god. Like Druids, Blackguards often do worship deities if only so they don't get shoved into the Wall of the Faithless, but their powers don't necessarily come from them.
2. Gods don't grant spells to people that don't worship them in FR, because they need worshipers to sustain their power and gain more power.
Also, the Blackguard class/prestige class in EVERY SINGLE EDITION does not require the worship of a deity and cannot "fall" and lose his powers like a Paladin can.
Um, the Fendish patron can be a Deity. And in fact, it should be a being of sufficient power to actually be able to bestow those powers. So you are probably talking about a Demi-God or at minimum some major name Demon or Devil. I don't see the reason to split hairs here. At the end of the day, a Blackguard needs a patron of sufficient power.
So basically everyone is right. The Blackguard's patron may or may not be a deity, and if not is an entity at least roughly on-par with a demi-god in terms of power.
Also, the Blackguard class/prestige class in EVERY SINGLE EDITION does not require the worship of a deity and cannot "fall" and lose his powers like a Paladin can.
I don't know about 'Every single edition', but I do know that in 3.5 it states specifically that a Blackguard needs to draw their power from some sort of Fiendish patron. As has already been said, that patron, in order to supply that power needs to be on par with a Deity. How many EVIL beings like that are there that aren't deities?
Beyond that, you are splitting hairs simply to make yourself 'Right'. The power comes from somewhere. That source needs to be powerful enough to be Divine in nature. Therefore, regardless of what the rules actually say, they imply that it has to be a Deity (or something equally powerful).
As far as Druids are concerned, they too need to worship a source of Divine power. 99% of the time that is some Deity who's domain is nature. The other 1% of the time it is a pantheon of Deities all of whom cover nature. At the end of the day, the ability to cast 5th level or higher spells can only come from a Divine source. PERIOD.
If I were DM and a player wanted to play a Druid that didn't worship any god, I would be fine with that but they wouldn't ever get spells 5th level or higher.
@the_spyder The Demon Princes, Archdukes of the Nine Hells, their various vassals. There's plenty of candidates. Any demon or devil that rules over any significant stronghold could be a possibility. None of those sorts of beings are deities.
And, again, I'm not splitting hairs. Somebody asserted that Blackguards had to get their powers from a deity. As that is not true, I argued to the contrary.
If I were a DM, which I am, and a player wanted to just be a Druid that reveres nature and doesn't pray to a god I would see no problem with that because it's perfectly within the rules and flavor of the class. Likewise, a Blackguard that gets his powers from a minor (relatively speaking) demon lord or simply by giving up a piece of his soul as part of some ritual, I would allow it. Again, perfectly within the rules and flavor of the class.
@Schneidend, so in the first place, I don't think you understand the amount of power that this arch duke would be giving away to power every single Blackguard under his/her command. Given the nature of the Arch Duke, I'd say that they aren't going to be giving away that much of their power (relatively speaking) for simply a piece of someone's soul except in EXTREMELY select cases. Definitely not some 5th level nobody anyway.
Secondly, I think that even Arch Dukes are considered Demi-Gods. Anything less than that simply (as has been stated over and over and over again) wouldn't have the power to spare on simple minions. Literally the concept behind Blackguards was a Faustian pact with the devil. Not some flunky 'At court' Demon.
In the third place, you still don't see how you are splitting hairs. Whomsoever grants the powers needs to be On PAR with a Deity. Regardless of if they actually have the title, the Blackguard needs to worship them as if they were a Deity. So it makes really no difference what so ever if they have their "Deity's only Card" or not. They are so powerful that it really makes no difference. And the Blackguard NEEDS to be worshiping them and totally devoted to their cause or the power goes away.
And the point you were making was that they didn't need to worship them. Guess what? No greater demon is going to give off any power what so ever to a non-worshiper. Blackguards are supposed to be the evil equivalent to Paladins in that they are the Evil entity's front line. Their agent in the mortal realm.
As far as the Druid thing, I am not going to debate it. The rules say clearly that divine spells above 5th level require divine intervention. Period. But you are free to play whatever house rules you like. That is the beauty of the game.
Comments
New fun weapons! Possibly specifically designed for classes/kits. (But not with making them only usable by that class, just bit better for them.)
OOOOOh! I would also like to have dagger(s) that looks like a short sword! For mages. To look cool.
I am aware of this, but it doesn't seem appropriate in this instance. The Fallen Paladins in this particular quest are still "the good guys," they're just no longer Lawful Good and no longer Paladins.
Depending on your actual approach you could do it via manipulation, trickiery or a number of different ways depending on the attributes of your character.
You mentioned scimitars but Belm, for example, has a name, a unique graphic and a backstory to go with it. Only the actual stats are vanilla (scimitar of speed). Other scimitars with backstories include Rashad's Talon, Spectral Brand, Twinkle and Icingdeath.
As @Wowo said, when we say "unique" we're talking about unusual game mechanics, like Equalizer's alignment bonuses, or Harbinger's 5% chance of dropping a fireball on your target. If I remember right, they're Knights of the Radiant Heart. You kill everybody in there and the entire Athkatlan city guard is going to know about it. Taking over a villain's former lair and it being an Evil-alignment Stronghold rather than a class Stronghold is a much more elegant solution.
Right but aren't Blackguard's "divine" casters, as in their power derives from a god? Regardless of overlord/demon/mailman who taught them how to channel it?
Divine powers come from an outside source that works through you, rather than exerting your will over energy like an Arcane caster does. It does not necessarily have to come from a deity. Druids get divine spellcasting without having to worship a god. In Dorn's case, his powers come from the demon lord he made a pact with. CHARNAME could be roleplayed likewise, or you could pretend to worship a particular deity. I choose the former.
-----
From Forgotten Realms wiki: http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/
Divine magic
Magic that originates from a spell-granting deity, usually through prayer, is divine in nature and is called the Power by the common folk. Clerics, druids, paladins, rangers and many prestige classes all derive their spells and spell-like abilities from a deity. A practitioner of the Power has no affinity with the Art, as their spells are planted in their minds directly by their patron deity, and they do not tap the Weave. Casting divine spells is more like an exclamation of faith that brings about a sensation appropriate to the patron deity to whom the faith was devoted.
Deities in the Forgotten Realms
The gods worshiped by the regular people of Faerûn, its monsters, and even its lesser deities are the subject of many sourcebooks.
-------------
My understanding is that Divine magic comes from the gods. Druid, Cleric, whatever. Even if it's tapped or channelled from a demon lord or whatever doesn't matter, there is a deity behind the power. There is no divine magic without a deity.
I wonder if we'll get to meet him at some point. Dorn mentions the Abyss in one dialogue, which implies that he's probably Tan'nari (or however you spell it).
Again, it is a CRPG, so some things you just have to take and suspend your disbelief a little bit.
As far as the OP's original point, I don't see the need for "More unique weapons". I think that if they proliferate, it cheapens the ones that are there. To me, a Unique weapon should be a once in a career find, not something that you find stacked in the corner with the other 'Name' weapons you found. D3 has an abundance of name weapons, and none of them feel of any use or value.
In The Hobbit, Gandalf and Thorin both find name weapons, but when Bilbo gets his, it is merely 'an elvish blade'. One of the dwarves later comments that weapons only get a name after being used in Great Deeds. That's how it should be in my mind. And considering the proliferation of magic in the D&D CRPG universe, most +3 weapons and below should merely be just that. A +3 weapon. IMHO.
I'm not the one splitting hairs. smeagol is insisting Blackguards need to get their powers from deities. That simply isn't the case, and Dorn proves that. I am well aware that the fiendish patron can be a deity. I never asserted otherwise.
Also, as others have, you're misunderstanding the request, here. OP wants weapons and armor that do cool stuff besides better AC, more damage, or better to-hit. What is being asked for are things like Harbinger, Cursed Sword of Berserking, Flame of the North, and Equalizer that do interesting stuff mechanically. He's not asking for cool backstories and fancy names, necessarily.
And who says anyone missed the point? I think adding weapons that have non combat abilities Should be ultra rare. And for pretty much the reasons I listed.
How about this: A flamethrower, and a sniper rifle...
...IN THE SAME WEAPON.
I know Jan would love to BBQ enemies from 1.2km away! IMPLEMENT NOW PLS!1!!1!
Divine magic comes from a divine source.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Divine_magic
Divine magic (the Power) is granted from prayer with the gods. Clerics, Paladins and Rangers, predominantly use this type of magic. Druids use magic that is similar to divine magic, but it is derived more from nature and the Weave than gods.
I do understand your point of a fiendish patron helping out and leading the way to a deity of some sort. But unless that thing is a god of some sort it is not possible in FR for it to provide divine magic. There is a Power behind the patron.
Maybe it's splitting hairs I'm not sure what else I can point to convince you since I've linked the evidence.
The proof so far you've brought is flavor from a character's biography. I believe official mechanics over that. If you have some other evidence then I'm willing to reconsider.
I won't labor this point anymore. If I haven't budged you from your position, then let's agree to disagree.
1. Druids don't worship gods for their divine power. They get their spells from a source that is not a god. Like Druids, Blackguards often do worship deities if only so they don't get shoved into the Wall of the Faithless, but their powers don't necessarily come from them.
2. Gods don't grant spells to people that don't worship them in FR, because they need worshipers to sustain their power and gain more power.
Also, the Blackguard class/prestige class in EVERY SINGLE EDITION does not require the worship of a deity and cannot "fall" and lose his powers like a Paladin can.
Beyond that, you are splitting hairs simply to make yourself 'Right'. The power comes from somewhere. That source needs to be powerful enough to be Divine in nature. Therefore, regardless of what the rules actually say, they imply that it has to be a Deity (or something equally powerful).
As far as Druids are concerned, they too need to worship a source of Divine power. 99% of the time that is some Deity who's domain is nature. The other 1% of the time it is a pantheon of Deities all of whom cover nature. At the end of the day, the ability to cast 5th level or higher spells can only come from a Divine source. PERIOD.
If I were DM and a player wanted to play a Druid that didn't worship any god, I would be fine with that but they wouldn't ever get spells 5th level or higher.
The Demon Princes, Archdukes of the Nine Hells, their various vassals. There's plenty of candidates. Any demon or devil that rules over any significant stronghold could be a possibility. None of those sorts of beings are deities.
And, again, I'm not splitting hairs. Somebody asserted that Blackguards had to get their powers from a deity. As that is not true, I argued to the contrary.
If I were a DM, which I am, and a player wanted to just be a Druid that reveres nature and doesn't pray to a god I would see no problem with that because it's perfectly within the rules and flavor of the class. Likewise, a Blackguard that gets his powers from a minor (relatively speaking) demon lord or simply by giving up a piece of his soul as part of some ritual, I would allow it. Again, perfectly within the rules and flavor of the class.
Secondly, I think that even Arch Dukes are considered Demi-Gods. Anything less than that simply (as has been stated over and over and over again) wouldn't have the power to spare on simple minions. Literally the concept behind Blackguards was a Faustian pact with the devil. Not some flunky 'At court' Demon.
In the third place, you still don't see how you are splitting hairs. Whomsoever grants the powers needs to be On PAR with a Deity. Regardless of if they actually have the title, the Blackguard needs to worship them as if they were a Deity. So it makes really no difference what so ever if they have their "Deity's only Card" or not. They are so powerful that it really makes no difference. And the Blackguard NEEDS to be worshiping them and totally devoted to their cause or the power goes away.
And the point you were making was that they didn't need to worship them. Guess what? No greater demon is going to give off any power what so ever to a non-worshiper. Blackguards are supposed to be the evil equivalent to Paladins in that they are the Evil entity's front line. Their agent in the mortal realm.
As far as the Druid thing, I am not going to debate it. The rules say clearly that divine spells above 5th level require divine intervention. Period. But you are free to play whatever house rules you like. That is the beauty of the game.