@the_spyder And I never said that it wouldn't have to be a powerful fiend. My argument was only that a Blackguard doesn't need to worship Bane, Talos, Loviatar, etc. in order to have his powers. If somebody says something erroneous, like "Blackguards can only get their power from Gods," then telling them something that disproves their notion is not splitting hairs.
I would disagree on whether an archduke's lieutenant or adviser devils could have the requisite power, all things being relative and some of those guys being one assassination attempt from being an archduke themselves. Belial's daughter Fierna is not an archduke, but I wouldn't put it past her to have some blackguards in her service.
I never said a Blackguard wouldn't need to worship the fiend or otherwise adhere to a ritual contract sort of thing. I only asserted that the Blackguard didn't need to worship a deity to get his powers, worshiping a demon is not worshiping a deity. Though, granted, THAT is certainly splitting hairs. But, that isn't what the argument was originally about.
As for the Druid thing, what rules say this? I don't have any 2E handbooks, so you might be right, but I've never seen such a ruling.
Where you are splitting hairs is in "a blackguard needs to worship a Deity" versus "A blackguard needs to worship someone so powerful that they might as well be a Deity". See the difference? Because i don't. It's splitting hairs. In either case, if a mere mortal were to piss them off, they would be just as dead.
If you want to say that they don't need to worship Bane specifically, fine. But the intent of the posts up to date is that they need to worship someone of deity caliber or no abilities. The other posters aren't wrong in that.
As for the rule, it is definitely a 2E thing. I never read any of the subsequent rules sets, merely played the CRPGs, so I don't know if it translates. But yeah, it says words to the effect that 1-2 level Divine spells come from the worship and devotion to the deity. Levels 3-4 come from the Deity's lieutenants or equivalent. level 5 and above must come directly from a Deity in some manner or other.
I once contemplated a campaign wherein the Deities left the plane and the Clerics needed to seek them out. Basically, their devotion would keep them in lower level spells such that the players would still have healing and such but little else. It was directly because of that passage in the DMG.
I'm pretty sure the Blackguard will end up being offered the Fighter stronghold, just like the Monk and Barbarian.
How about this for a variation on what would be an ill-fitting square in a round hole through use of the normal Fighter stronghold scenario...
****
If you are playing Blackguard instead of being approached by Nalia to come rescue her home, you get approached by one of the servants of your patron. Your patron directs you to assist Isaea Roenal (who has given an appropriate boon to your patron to win a service from him) in taking over the De'Arnise Hold.
You have to wipe out all the trolls, etc. attacking the place, kill Nalia's father, and force Nalia to either marry Roenal or cede her right to the keep. If you want Nalia in the party, you can conceal or lie to her about her father and then give her the option of ceding control of the keep and serving you to avoid marrying Roenal. She is bitter and resentful but serves you since she lives in fear of being made to marry Roenal. You could eventually win some genuine loyalty when Roenal comes back later insisting on marrying Nalia if you choose to save her from him again.
In either case, Roenal agrees to give you the stronghold while he takes over the De'Arnise family business.
****
This offers the advantage of not having to rewrite any of the gameplay and merely programming some different dialogue options in the case of the PC being a Blackguard ala the Cleric stronghold alternative scenarios.
@the_spyder That's the problem, though, a being like Demogorgon or Asmodeus isn't a deity, not in FR terms. They don't get more or less powerful based on who adheres to their dogma, prays to them, or serves them directly. Gods must concern themselves with such things. They are part of a compact with Ao and are bound by that compact to conduct themselves and use their power in certain ways. If there is a considerable difference between two things, fiend and deity in this case, that isn't splitting hairs.
@AHF That's a really great idea and would love to see Overhaul implement it. I especially like that Isaea made a deal with CHARNAME's fiendish patron to get direct support in the form of tapping CHARNAME. I can just picture Isaea warily approaching CHARNAME and saying that a "mutual acquaintance" directed him to you.
I whole heartedly disagree. Greater Demons and Devils absolutely get more powerful based on being worshiped and receiving sacrifices. If they aren't getting power that way, then where is the power coming from to power up the Blackguard abilities? It doesn't spring out of their nether regions (pun intended). Their infernal power structure in those realms are BASED on worship. In those realms AND in the prime material plane.
If they didn't get power from being worshiped by their followers, they wouldn't give one hoot about creating Blackguards and the like. Why give any power at all to any being if they aren't getting something in return? If you think these beings are altruistic in nature, you have another think coming.
Think of it this way. If beings other than gods can get power out of nothing merely for being, why wouldn't Gods leverage that? To say that Demons just have power on the order of the power of a God, without worshipers, why do the Gods handicap themselves by needing them? It makes zero sense.
Damage: 2d8+5 Thac0: +5 bonus AC: +1 bonus Saving Throws: +1 bonus Equipped abilities: 50% Fire and Acid resistance, 25% Magic Resistance, limited Free Action, Immunity to Poison and Disease Special: Once a round will cast Detect Evil and will immediately attack anything detected as Evil even against the wielder's will. Usable by: Paladins
Granted to Sir Edrick of Tyr shortly before the Time of Troubles, this Holy Avenger Sword was cursed during Edrick's last campaign as a Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart. Facing a powerful Lich who threatened the city of Calimport with his undead horde, Edrick struck the creature down and destroyed his phylactery. When he returned home, however, he slaughtered 25 nobles and 5 cats before being put down by his comrades. It is believed that the lich cursed the sword with his dying breath. Regardless, it is a powerful weapon in it's own right if a tad overzealous in it's duty.
Might be somewhat OP, but I wanted it's benefits to be good enough that it would be worth the risk of equipping it and killing all of the evil NPCs in a tavern by accident (and in my experience nobles are almost exclusively evil, perhaps due to lazy coding of alignments.)
Maybe give the sword a 100% chance on it's first hit whenever striking an enemy that it detected as evil, and make the wielder unable to move until it connects that attack, so that the curse is a relevant problem.
Certainly a Blackguard's patron will want something out of the relationship, but it might not be (or might not always be) worship. It could instead be acting as the patron's agent on the material plane, or anything else which furthers the patron's aims in some way; worship would be only one of those ways.
Also, although I haven't see anything in sources to confirm this, I get the impression that the idea is that a Blackguard has a unique or nearly-unique relationship with his patron, i.e. any individual demonic patron will have only one Blackguard or at most a handful of Blackguards - not like a god having a whole hierarchy of priests and great throngs of worshippers. Thus it seems to me credible that a Blackguard's patron could be a lesser being than a full-blown evil deity, although such a patron would probably be a minion of something more powerful (i.e. an actual evil deity) who would be the ultimate source of the powers granted to the Blackguard through the patron. I think it'd be quite in character for such a patron not to tell his Blackguard(s) whom he ultimately serves (or even to lie, denying that he's anyone else's minion), so there's no need for the Blackguard to worship that deity, or even know which deity it is, or even to be aware that there's actually any deity involved in his pact; he serves by his actions rather than by his prayers.
I whole heartedly disagree. Greater Demons and Devils absolutely get more powerful based on being worshiped and receiving sacrifices. If they aren't getting power that way, then where is the power coming from to power up the Blackguard abilities? It doesn't spring out of their nether regions (pun intended). Their infernal power structure in those realms are BASED on worship. In those realms AND in the prime material plane.
If they didn't get power from being worshiped by their followers, they wouldn't give one hoot about creating Blackguards and the like. Why give any power at all to any being if they aren't getting something in return? If you think these beings are altruistic in nature, you have another think coming.
Think of it this way. If beings other than gods can get power out of nothing merely for being, why wouldn't Gods leverage that? To say that Demons just have power on the order of the power of a God, without worshipers, why do the Gods handicap themselves by needing them? It makes zero sense.
1. Demons want mortal agents to help summon them or affect their will on the mortal plane. Creating an unholy knight that carries your message and kills and conquers in your name in a place you can't normally go in order to further your agenda sounds pretty valuable to me.
2. I've never seen any source material suggesting demons or other fiends can get stronger just by being worshiped. If they get enough worshipers they might become a god, but Orcus and Asmodeus have lots of cults and Asmodeus doesn't achieve godhood until 4th Edition's cosmology shift. Orcus is still a demon prince in 4E. He is on par with a lesser god in that ruleset, but so are other creatures that don't require worshipers to be powerful, such as Primordials or the Tarrasque. Yeenoghu, demon prince of gnolls, is not on par with a god, but he regularly grants gnoll tribes boons such as demonic bloodlines, magic flails, and demon hyena pets. Being an evil benefactor does not require one to be on equal footing with Bane or Gruumsh, both of whom could probably crush Yeenoghu like a bug in the unlikely event that they were to meet in combat.
3. Gods are handicapping themselves in some ways, but are still much more powerful than a demon prince could ever hope to be. After all, Helm threw Demogorgon into Watcher's Keep as a punishment even though he could have easily killed it, and Demogorgon is one of the strongest demons in all of D&D history.
4. As @Eudaemonium points out, Ur-Gothoz is getting souls for Dorn's kills, and that's like a currency to a devil or demon. @Gallowglass also has a good rationale for a lower-class demon/devil/daemon to be able to empower a Blackguard. A one-to-one-basis isn't dividing up as much power, especially if the demon is getting souls or something else out of the deal.
1) Much in the same way that gods do. That is in significant part how Gods gain power through Worship. In other words, it is the same thing. Even a normal mortal who has worshipers gains power. What you point out here in no way invalidates what I and others have said.
2) Then you haven't done very much reading. Every single thing I have read about demons (both in FR and elsewhere), indicates that they thrive and grow in power based on the number of worshipers. I am not sure how you can make your statement with a straight face. And even your own point invalidates the point. You say "If they get enough worshipers they might become a god". Game-set-match. Just because it doesn't happen often, doesn't mean that it isn't a goal and that power isn't gained. And if it is a goal, it invalidates your "I've never seen any source material suggesting demons or other fiends can get stronger just by being worshiped" statement.
3) From a strictly game mechanics perspective, this statement makes no sense. If you look at the stats in the Monster Manual (2E) for Asomdeus and then look at the stats for most of the Demi-Gods in the Deities and Demi-gods book (again 2E), you will find that they are comparable within degrees. If you are talking mechanics, that refutes your claim.
Heck, from a CRPG game perspective, many a 'Party' has been tasked with taking out Gods in just the D&D game licenses. In ToEE, you take out whatever god that is that is responsible for the temple being rebuilt. In Curse of the Azure bonds, you attack a god in the sewers. Neither are necessarily tougher than Demo-Gorgon in Watcher's keep.
And speaking of your "Helm" example, Helm is a major God. He would have the power to lock even a minor God in Watcher's keep, let alone a Demi-God. Claiming that his ability to do that in no way proves that Demo-Gorgon isn't as powerful as a God. And in fact, he is trying to escape. If the power differential were as vast as you claim, Ol' Demo-gorgon wouldn't be able to do even that.
At the end of the day, even "IF" there is a power differential, and I am not agreeing that there is, it is of little to no difference to mere mortals. They are both so vastly more powerful than Mortals that worshiping one is analogous to worshiping the other. If Gods are as far above Demons as humans are above ants, then it is reasonable to say that Demons are as far above Humans as humans are above ants. This assumes a power differential, that you haven't proven. Even then, the worship itself is the factor, not how powerful the being is that you worship.
But, I am done trying to convince you on this point. You choose not to see facts, and that is your prerogative. I see no difference between worshiping a Demon or worshiping an Evil Demi-god. Both are bound to a being so vastly superior to themselves that they would get squashed if they crossed them. both require worship. Both require devotion (or fear). Both gain powers in very similar ways. In short, no difference.
I might be mistaken but I recall seeing a similar phrase in the description for Keldorn's armor in BG2, it made him immune to web, hold, and slow effects but he could still be hasted. I might be wrong, but that's how I would handle free action for the sword regardless.
@Delvarian: I guess only about 1d2-1 slashing damage from those tiny claws. And of course only 1/2 APR because kitties are such a handful to reload. Nah, useless ... unless you've got some magical kitties with additional effects. Hellkitties+2 (+2 THAC0 and +1d6 additional fire damage) might be handy. Kitties of Stunning (sound-weapon with 20% stun chance, save at -2 to negate) would be interesting. Miniature Giant Space Kitties (go for the eyes, 20% chance of Blindness, no save) would be pretty good.
Comments
And I never said that it wouldn't have to be a powerful fiend. My argument was only that a Blackguard doesn't need to worship Bane, Talos, Loviatar, etc. in order to have his powers. If somebody says something erroneous, like "Blackguards can only get their power from Gods," then telling them something that disproves their notion is not splitting hairs.
I would disagree on whether an archduke's lieutenant or adviser devils could have the requisite power, all things being relative and some of those guys being one assassination attempt from being an archduke themselves. Belial's daughter Fierna is not an archduke, but I wouldn't put it past her to have some blackguards in her service.
I never said a Blackguard wouldn't need to worship the fiend or otherwise adhere to a ritual contract sort of thing. I only asserted that the Blackguard didn't need to worship a deity to get his powers, worshiping a demon is not worshiping a deity. Though, granted, THAT is certainly splitting hairs. But, that isn't what the argument was originally about.
As for the Druid thing, what rules say this? I don't have any 2E handbooks, so you might be right, but I've never seen such a ruling.
If you want to say that they don't need to worship Bane specifically, fine. But the intent of the posts up to date is that they need to worship someone of deity caliber or no abilities. The other posters aren't wrong in that.
As for the rule, it is definitely a 2E thing. I never read any of the subsequent rules sets, merely played the CRPGs, so I don't know if it translates. But yeah, it says words to the effect that 1-2 level Divine spells come from the worship and devotion to the deity. Levels 3-4 come from the Deity's lieutenants or equivalent. level 5 and above must come directly from a Deity in some manner or other.
I once contemplated a campaign wherein the Deities left the plane and the Clerics needed to seek them out. Basically, their devotion would keep them in lower level spells such that the players would still have healing and such but little else. It was directly because of that passage in the DMG.
****
If you are playing Blackguard instead of being approached by Nalia to come rescue her home, you get approached by one of the servants of your patron. Your patron directs you to assist Isaea Roenal (who has given an appropriate boon to your patron to win a service from him) in taking over the De'Arnise Hold.
You have to wipe out all the trolls, etc. attacking the place, kill Nalia's father, and force Nalia to either marry Roenal or cede her right to the keep. If you want Nalia in the party, you can conceal or lie to her about her father and then give her the option of ceding control of the keep and serving you to avoid marrying Roenal. She is bitter and resentful but serves you since she lives in fear of being made to marry Roenal. You could eventually win some genuine loyalty when Roenal comes back later insisting on marrying Nalia if you choose to save her from him again.
In either case, Roenal agrees to give you the stronghold while he takes over the De'Arnise family business.
****
This offers the advantage of not having to rewrite any of the gameplay and merely programming some different dialogue options in the case of the PC being a Blackguard ala the Cleric stronghold alternative scenarios.
That's the problem, though, a being like Demogorgon or Asmodeus isn't a deity, not in FR terms. They don't get more or less powerful based on who adheres to their dogma, prays to them, or serves them directly. Gods must concern themselves with such things. They are part of a compact with Ao and are bound by that compact to conduct themselves and use their power in certain ways. If there is a considerable difference between two things, fiend and deity in this case, that isn't splitting hairs.
@AHF
That's a really great idea and would love to see Overhaul implement it. I especially like that Isaea made a deal with CHARNAME's fiendish patron to get direct support in the form of tapping CHARNAME. I can just picture Isaea warily approaching CHARNAME and saying that a "mutual acquaintance" directed him to you.
If they didn't get power from being worshiped by their followers, they wouldn't give one hoot about creating Blackguards and the like. Why give any power at all to any being if they aren't getting something in return? If you think these beings are altruistic in nature, you have another think coming.
Think of it this way. If beings other than gods can get power out of nothing merely for being, why wouldn't Gods leverage that? To say that Demons just have power on the order of the power of a God, without worshipers, why do the Gods handicap themselves by needing them? It makes zero sense.
Longsword+5: Holy Avenger
CURSED
Damage: 2d8+5
Thac0: +5 bonus
AC: +1 bonus
Saving Throws: +1 bonus
Equipped abilities: 50% Fire and Acid resistance, 25% Magic Resistance, limited Free Action, Immunity to Poison and Disease
Special: Once a round will cast Detect Evil and will immediately attack anything detected as Evil even against the wielder's will.
Usable by: Paladins
Granted to Sir Edrick of Tyr shortly before the Time of Troubles, this Holy Avenger Sword was cursed during Edrick's last campaign as a Knight of the Most Noble Order of the Radiant Heart. Facing a powerful Lich who threatened the city of Calimport with his undead horde, Edrick struck the creature down and destroyed his phylactery. When he returned home, however, he slaughtered 25 nobles and 5 cats before being put down by his comrades. It is believed that the lich cursed the sword with his dying breath. Regardless, it is a powerful weapon in it's own right if a tad overzealous in it's duty.
Might be somewhat OP, but I wanted it's benefits to be good enough that it would be worth the risk of equipping it and killing all of the evil NPCs in a tavern by accident (and in my experience nobles are almost exclusively evil, perhaps due to lazy coding of alignments.)
Maybe give the sword a 100% chance on it's first hit whenever striking an enemy that it detected as evil, and make the wielder unable to move until it connects that attack, so that the curse is a relevant problem.
Also, although I haven't see anything in sources to confirm this, I get the impression that the idea is that a Blackguard has a unique or nearly-unique relationship with his patron, i.e. any individual demonic patron will have only one Blackguard or at most a handful of Blackguards - not like a god having a whole hierarchy of priests and great throngs of worshippers. Thus it seems to me credible that a Blackguard's patron could be a lesser being than a full-blown evil deity, although such a patron would probably be a minion of something more powerful (i.e. an actual evil deity) who would be the ultimate source of the powers granted to the Blackguard through the patron. I think it'd be quite in character for such a patron not to tell his Blackguard(s) whom he ultimately serves (or even to lie, denying that he's anyone else's minion), so there's no need for the Blackguard to worship that deity, or even know which deity it is, or even to be aware that there's actually any deity involved in his pact; he serves by his actions rather than by his prayers.
2. I've never seen any source material suggesting demons or other fiends can get stronger just by being worshiped. If they get enough worshipers they might become a god, but Orcus and Asmodeus have lots of cults and Asmodeus doesn't achieve godhood until 4th Edition's cosmology shift. Orcus is still a demon prince in 4E. He is on par with a lesser god in that ruleset, but so are other creatures that don't require worshipers to be powerful, such as Primordials or the Tarrasque. Yeenoghu, demon prince of gnolls, is not on par with a god, but he regularly grants gnoll tribes boons such as demonic bloodlines, magic flails, and demon hyena pets. Being an evil benefactor does not require one to be on equal footing with Bane or Gruumsh, both of whom could probably crush Yeenoghu like a bug in the unlikely event that they were to meet in combat.
3. Gods are handicapping themselves in some ways, but are still much more powerful than a demon prince could ever hope to be. After all, Helm threw Demogorgon into Watcher's Keep as a punishment even though he could have easily killed it, and Demogorgon is one of the strongest demons in all of D&D history.
4. As @Eudaemonium points out, Ur-Gothoz is getting souls for Dorn's kills, and that's like a currency to a devil or demon. @Gallowglass also has a good rationale for a lower-class demon/devil/daemon to be able to empower a Blackguard. A one-to-one-basis isn't dividing up as much power, especially if the demon is getting souls or something else out of the deal.
1) Much in the same way that gods do. That is in significant part how Gods gain power through Worship. In other words, it is the same thing. Even a normal mortal who has worshipers gains power. What you point out here in no way invalidates what I and others have said.
2) Then you haven't done very much reading. Every single thing I have read about demons (both in FR and elsewhere), indicates that they thrive and grow in power based on the number of worshipers. I am not sure how you can make your statement with a straight face. And even your own point invalidates the point. You say "If they get enough worshipers they might become a god". Game-set-match. Just because it doesn't happen often, doesn't mean that it isn't a goal and that power isn't gained. And if it is a goal, it invalidates your "I've never seen any source material suggesting demons or other fiends can get stronger just by being worshiped" statement.
3) From a strictly game mechanics perspective, this statement makes no sense. If you look at the stats in the Monster Manual (2E) for Asomdeus and then look at the stats for most of the Demi-Gods in the Deities and Demi-gods book (again 2E), you will find that they are comparable within degrees. If you are talking mechanics, that refutes your claim.
Heck, from a CRPG game perspective, many a 'Party' has been tasked with taking out Gods in just the D&D game licenses. In ToEE, you take out whatever god that is that is responsible for the temple being rebuilt. In Curse of the Azure bonds, you attack a god in the sewers. Neither are necessarily tougher than Demo-Gorgon in Watcher's keep.
And speaking of your "Helm" example, Helm is a major God. He would have the power to lock even a minor God in Watcher's keep, let alone a Demi-God. Claiming that his ability to do that in no way proves that Demo-Gorgon isn't as powerful as a God. And in fact, he is trying to escape. If the power differential were as vast as you claim, Ol' Demo-gorgon wouldn't be able to do even that.
At the end of the day, even "IF" there is a power differential, and I am not agreeing that there is, it is of little to no difference to mere mortals. They are both so vastly more powerful than Mortals that worshiping one is analogous to worshiping the other. If Gods are as far above Demons as humans are above ants, then it is reasonable to say that Demons are as far above Humans as humans are above ants. This assumes a power differential, that you haven't proven. Even then, the worship itself is the factor, not how powerful the being is that you worship.
But, I am done trying to convince you on this point. You choose not to see facts, and that is your prerogative. I see no difference between worshiping a Demon or worshiping an Evil Demi-god. Both are bound to a being so vastly superior to themselves that they would get squashed if they crossed them. both require worship. Both require devotion (or fear). Both gain powers in very similar ways. In short, no difference.
You're incapable of accepting another's viewpoint if it conflicts with your tired 2E dogma, so I'm equally done with this conversation.
@Derrylson What do you mean by limited Free Action?
http://www.shsforums.net/files/file/143-holy-hand-grenade/
...Ugh, makes me want the new class for Borderlands 2 even more so. He actually has a build where you WANT your allies to hurt you.
I might be mistaken but I recall seeing a similar phrase in the description for Keldorn's armor in BG2, it made him immune to web, hold, and slow effects but he could still be hasted. I might be wrong, but that's how I would handle free action for the sword regardless.