Replacing old spells with new ones for sorcerer.

Tresset

I would like to see something similar to the NWN system of new spell acquiring for sorcerers. In that game at each level up you had the option to forget spells you no longer need in order to take new ones. I think this would be a very helpful feature to have in BG:EE with a great many advantages. There are so many practical reasons for this too. Like for instance if you take armor at level one you could ditch it later when you learn ghost armor because it would no longer be of any use. Then you could learn a new, better spell for level one that may not have been as useful before like chromatic orb. Also this way you do not have to meticulously plan out your spellbook before playing as a sorcerer. I think this would be a very user friendly option that gives this class some much needed flexibility. This would also mean that it would be easier for anyone to play as a sorcerer; instead of like it is right now where I imagine most pros would invariably tell beginners to try something else first (and rightly so).

aldain

As you say, this would make it a little easier to play a Sorcerer as a new player. However, I'm wondering if it should be as restricted as it was in NWN (you could only replace a spell every 2 levels starting at level 4, and that spell had to be 2 levels below the highest spell level you could currently cast.. so at level 4 you could replace cantrips, at level 6 cantrips or level 1 spells etc). I'd personally like to see something like swap one spell every 2 levels starting at level 2, can swap any known spell.

It would definitely make for much more fun as a low level sorcerer.. instead of picking stuff that's good in the long term, you could go for spells that are great early on and just swap them out as you level. Sleep, Larloch's Minor Drain, Identify (until your secondary mage has more than 1-2 slots for it) etc.
It would also let you experiment a bit with unusual spell selections, and hey, if it fails it's no big deal since you can just replace your odd choices with standard stuff.

Maybe it'd make Sorcerers even more powerful, but they're already game-breakingly potent, so meh.

Tresset

aldain said:

However, I'm wondering if it should be as restricted as it was in NWN (you could only replace a spell every 2 levels starting at level 4, and that spell had to be 2 levels below the highest spell level you could currently cast.. so at level 4 you could replace cantrips, at level 6 cantrips or level 1 spells etc). I'd personally like to see something like swap one spell every 2 levels starting at level 2, can swap any known spell.

@aldain Ehh? Since when? Is that NWN2 rules? I never played NWN2. In the original NWN You could replace spells whenever the heck you wanted upon level up.

As to restricting the amount of rearranging you can do; I don't know if that is a good idea. Such rules would really hinder the proposed flexibility of sorcerers. There are only 8 level ups in BG1:EE so by your suggestion that means only a total of 4 spells could be swapped and, while better than nothing, still means that beginners will have a harder time with the sorcerer than other classes.

Aedan

Actually I am pretty sure that in NWN 2 you may change sorcerer spells any time you level up.
Anyway, I like this suggestion and I do hope they implement it.

aldain

Tresset said:

aldain said:

However, I'm wondering if it should be as restricted as it was in NWN (you could only replace a spell every 2 levels starting at level 4, and that spell had to be 2 levels below the highest spell level you could currently cast.. so at level 4 you could replace cantrips, at level 6 cantrips or level 1 spells etc). I'd personally like to see something like swap one spell every 2 levels starting at level 2, can swap any known spell.

@aldain Ehh? Since when? Is that NWN2 rules? I never played NWN2. In the original NWN You could replace spells whenever the heck you wanted upon level up.

As to restricting the amount of rearranging you can do; I don't know if that is a good idea. Such rules would really hinder the proposed flexibility of sorcerers. There are only 8 level ups in BG1:EE so by your suggestion that means only a total of 4 spells could be swapped and, while better than nothing, still means that beginners will have a harder time with the sorcerer than other classes.

You're right, in NWN1 there was no restriction. I was just giving it a novice attempt at retaining some semblance of balance by suggesting some kind of limitation, maybe that's better left to the devs...

Aedan said:

Actually I am pretty sure that in NWN 2 you may change sorcerer spells any time you level up.
Anyway, I like this suggestion and I do hope they implement it.

http://nwn2.wikia.com/wiki/Sorcerer
In NWN2 the limitation I described above exists. I'm on the fence about whether there should still be a limitation if this is implemented in BG:EE, or if you should just be allowed to change your entire spellbook upon leveling.

Aedan

Well, the wikia is wrong. I asked a friend of mine to check this (he still plays NWN2 in Multiplayer Mode) and told me that he can adjust the spells at his will with no limitation.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

aldain

Aedan said:

Well, the wikia is wrong. I asked a friend of mine to check this (he still plays NWN2 in Multiplayer Mode) and told me that he can adjust the spells at his will with no limitation.

I played NWN2 as late as last week, fully patched with no mods and SoZ installed, and swapping spells functions the way the wikia explains it. Maybe your friend has mods installed, or plays on a PW with custom rules? Bit off-topic though.

subtledoctor said:

Sorcerers are already so freakin' powerful; making hard choices about spell selection is one of the few things keeping them out of the realm of "just plain broken." If they let you switch known spells, they should also do something to balance it, like drastically reduce the number of casts per day. Maybe to the same number as wizards.

I disagree. Sorcerers are already utterly broken, on the magnitude of Kensai/Mage dualclass.
But they're broken for people that have played the game through 50+ times and know every spell, effect, potion, magic item and area backwards and forward. For a relative newcomer, it's easy to completely destroy a Sorcerer's effectiveness by picking spells that scale poorly.

What you'd do by implementing this is make Sorcerers more beginner friendly, as well as allow some experimentation with regards to spells. I think it'd make the class more fun.
Granted, it'd probably boost the Sorcerer power curve a little, but I'm of the opinion that they're already so brutally powerful it doesn't really matter.

Given that it's a single player game and there are no Sorcerer NPC's included by default, what is the harm? You make a class more fun to play and more accessible for new players, and the balance downside only affects those who elect to play as Sorcerer themselves... it has no effect on the game for anyone else.

Copastetic1985

@aldain

Baeloth is a Sorcerer that's included in the game.

aldain

Copastetic1985 said:

@aldain

Baeloth is a Sorcerer that's included in the game.

Granted, but do you really think he's a good example of how the game would be broken if the above change is implemented? He's an easter egg and is already very overpowered.

Copastetic1985

Sorcerer=overpowered. Baeloth, a PC character, whatever. Personally I don't care, as I hardly play anything other than a Bard/Thief/Cleric or Druid. This isn't an MMO, and I'm not tackling PvP, so the term 'balance' means very little to me given that I don't play the class to begin with.

However, in the name of 'balance' for a single-player game, if you take away the one limiting feature of the Sorcerer ( picking spells that can't be replaced ), then you basically have a Mage x 10 with no restrictions to spell schools, more castings per day, and can take out that level 1 Sleep spell to replace with Magic Missile/Shield/Armor, whatever.

Sorcerers are already better than Mages by default. Why make them better? My vote is a no on this. If you're a new player and don't know anything about the game, roll a Mage/Specialist. If you have the internet, roll a Sorcerer.

Tresset

Hrrm. I wouldn't say they are broken. I won't deny that they are good in the right hands, but broken? See to me "broken" is a very strong word that means it is so incredibly easy that no matter what you do you win every time; making the game utterly boring and pointless. In that sense a monk in BG2 is more broken than any caster. All you need to do with them is point and click and everything dies. Sure the sorcerer can cast like crazy but you also need to cast correctly and probably have some fighter meat shields too (especially in BG1). They are still frail so you need to be careful with them. So yes they are really good casters (and only if you know your stuff I might add), possibly the best, but broken? I've seen worse. (Of course much of this depends on opinion and personal preference.)

The way I see it the change I propose would not hurt anyone who plays the game. It would only help them. The reason for this is that it only grants more options to make the sorcerer a viable class for inexperienced players. Anyone who does not like the change has the option to impose their own limitations on themselves. Take @bbear for instance and his self imposed challenges. Even if this change is made anyone can still effectively ignore it by exercising some self control.

Long story short: Even if you personally do not like the change it won't hurt you anyway so why not support it for the sake of those who would greatly appreciate the change?

aldain

Copastetic1985 said:

Sorcerer=overpowered. Baeloth, a PC character, whatever. Personally I don't care, as I hardly play anything other than a Bard/Thief/Cleric or Druid. This isn't an MMO, and I'm not tackling PvP, so the term 'balance' means very little to me given that I don't play the class to begin with.

However, in the name of 'balance' for a single-player game, if you take away the one limiting feature of the Sorcerer ( picking spells that can't be replaced ), then you basically have a Mage x 10 with no restrictions to spell schools, more castings per day, and can take out that level 1 Sleep spell to replace with Magic Missile/Shield/Armor, whatever.

Sorcerers are already better than Mages by default. Why make them better? My vote is a no on this. If you're a new player and don't know anything about the game, roll a Mage/Specialist. If you have the internet, roll a Sorcerer.

I don't think anyone is advocating at-will changing of a Sorcerer's spell selection. I'm certainly not.
What we're talking about is being able to swap spells at level up. You'll still be far more limited with regards to available spells than a Mage, given that a Mage only has to rest to completely change his entire spell repertoire.

Sorcerers were never intended to be stuck with their spell picks for all time either, they're cribbed off of 3rd edition and in that edition they're allowed to swap spells. Granted, they're not allowed to swap a great number (9 total up to Sorcerer level 20), but still, this lets them pick a few situational/early powerhouse spells and then settle into their long-term choices as they gain levels.
Their limitation, which would persist even if this change was implemented, is that they lack the utility of a wizard that can customize all his available spells to specific situations.

Iecerint

This is a great idea! It will encourage players to experiment with underused spells, and it will make Sorcerer more inviting to new players.

This kind of edit only slightly affects the high-end imba-ness of Sorcerers while making them more noob/experimentation-friendly.

The fact that this is apparently the "standard" Sorcerer implementation just makes it better!

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

secretmantra

I think the proposed change would be good. In particular, new players (or those unfamiliar with arcane casters) could more easily play the class without permanently nerfing themselves with a spell like Find Familar at level 1.

For balance purposes, it could perhaps be more limited than just being able to swap all spells at level up. Maybe make it 1 max spell swap per level up? Or as someone above suggested, 1 every 2 levels?

For those concerned about balance, do keep in mind that at any point in the game, a sorceror is much more limited than a mage in terms of spells known. Where a mage with high enough INT can memorize almost all spells/level, a Sorceror can only ever know a MAX of 5 at the highest levels. That's a pretty major difference, even if you're allowing them to swap one of those every level.

Bercon

You don't really need more than 5 spells known per level (4 on spell levels 8 and 9), when you know what to pick. Sure you need to make compromise or two, but nothing that has a large impact on your combat abilities. That said, being able to swap out spells wouldn't have that big impact. You might use few spells that are just good on low levels, when Sorcerer isn't that powerful anyway. On higher levels (beyond 20) it would make no difference at all in terms of raw power.

Tresset

subtledoctor said:

The bigger question is simply one of implementation - it would probably be a lot of work to create a whole new UI mechanism for this attached to the level-up screen. From a developer's perspective, it's probably just not worth it.

I don't think it would actually be that hard. You are forgetting that they already did a whole new UI for the whole game... Besides, It's what they do for a living. It's not like they make BG:EE when they have nothing better to do.

subtledoctor said:

To brass tacks: if a mage could cast any of his memorized spells interchangeably, like a sorcerer can, that flexibility would be incredibly powerful. To then allow him to cast more times than a normal mage brings it into the realm of broken. The only thing that brings the class back down to earth is the restriction of spell choice. Ease that restriction, and things go back to broken. To keep things sane, you would have to make a trade-off, like only giving them the normal number of casts per day. That would still be very, very powerful... but not broken.

Ahh but I am not saying we should ease the restriction of spell choice. You would still only have 5 to choose from. Its just that every once in a while you could change what those 5 are.

Look, IMHO this should theoretically only help people have more fun with the sorcerer. Certainly it would make the class actually beginner friendly (something most would agree it currently is NOT). Consider this though: A pro will likely only choose the spells that pay off in the long run anyway so the sorcerer would NOT become more broken if this were implemented. It just means that the sorcerer is flexible enough to be useful at all stages of its life. If you skip all the good low level only spells and only choose all the high level pay off spells you will likely struggle very much in BG1:EE and only kick but in BG2:EE. Keep in mind that sorcerers never had to deal with low level situations before EE so this change was almost not needed.

Now consider this: A beginner picks a sorcerer. They pick spells that are awesome at low levels like sleep. Then they get to high levels and realize that they screwed themselves by doing so. They start to loose interest in their sorcerer because it sucks so much. Then they start to loose interest in the game as a whole since they would rather not start all over from the beginning. Then they decide they don't like the game because of their bad experience and don't want to buy BG2:EE. Then their friends come and ask them if they should get BG:EE and what do they say? No, of course.

All of us pros (including me) often forget that beginners exist and they are a part of the market as well. We are all wrapped up in our silly concerns such as "brokenness" and "nerfing" that we propose changes that are bad for the game's market as a whole and we try to shoot down changes that would be good for the game's market as a whole. We should not be so self absorbed, ESPECIALLY in this section of the forums.

Copastetic1985

All these people talking about "beginners", "noobs", "new players", etc...it's completely irrelevant. I'm going to say that 95% of the people who are new(ish) to this game has access to the internet or other sources where they can get information to help them. In fact, I'd be surprised if ONE of those 95%'ers I mentioned didn't look up possible builds, restrictions, spells etc...on their chosen class prior to getting out of Candlekeep.

In my opinion, it's just the old players that are wanting this and then trying to justify it by saying it's for a cause other than their own.

Sorcerers are more powerful ( in terms of spells ) than a Mage or Specialist Mage, hands down. Their ONE ( SEE THAT 1 or ONE or UNO or ICHI ) drawback is that you have to meta-game them. This is something that will probably not change in BG1 or BG2.

Tresset

@Copastetic1985 Beginners irrelevant? 95%?!?!?! Have you been on these forums recently or ever?

Copastetic1985 said:

In my opinion, it's just the old players that are wanting this and then trying to justify it by saying it's for a cause other than their own.

Sure... Pretend you can read my mind all you want. That is certainly a legit argument...

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

aldain

I'm going to snip and divide up some posts a bit to increase readability.

subtledoctor said:

statements like

it's easy to completely destroy a Sorcerer's effectiveness by picking spells that scale poorly

are just as hyberbolic.


"Hi, I'm a new player. I've no freaking idea what spells to pick for my sorcerer! But this Armor thing looks cool and it lasts forever, so I'm going to grab that. Since I wear a bathrobe for protection I should probably have at least one defensive spell right? And I definitely want a funky familiar, so I'm gonna grab Find Familiar too!

Hm, well that sucks. I just found a robe at a merchant that actually provides a better bonus than my Armor spell does. And I only needed to cast Find Familiar once... so now I have a Sorcerer that can do nothing but Armor himself to no use, and pelt stuff with a sling.

But wait! I toughed it out and am now L4! Woop woop, another L1 and L2 spell for me!. Let's see... I should probably get some offensive spells, I'm tired of just hitting stuff with my sling. Larloch's Minor Drain looks neat, it deals damage and heals me at the same time. Power Word: Sleep also looks awesome, totally incapacitates an enemy with no save! There can't possibly be that many enemies with over 20 HP, especially after I blast them with my one offensive single target spell."
10 minutes following toughing it out to L4, the beginner sadly got tired of sucking balls in every way with no chance to rectify his mistakes short of starting over from scratch and just stopped playing.

While the above is certainly an extreme example, it's not even the worst of the lot. There are several spell picks that look great early on but turn completely lackluster as you gain levels, and then you have invested even more time into your character only for him/her to start dragging farther and farther behind the power level of your other party members... this is the kind of stuff that turns people off games.

subtledoctor said:

To brass tacks: if a mage could cast any of his memorized spells interchangeably, like a sorcerer can, that flexibility would be incredibly powerful. To then allow him to cast more times than a normal mage brings it into the realm of broken. The only thing that brings the class back down to earth is the restriction of spell choice. Ease that restriction, and things go back to broken. To keep things sane, you would have to make a trade-off, like only giving them the normal number of casts per day. That would still be very, very powerful... but not broken.

But you still have the major restriction in place. We're not advocating giving a Sorcerer more known spells per level, just the opportunity to correct mistakes and maybe pick some spells you know are powerful early on but stops being effective later, Sleep being a prime example. I don't see what people have against the poor Sorcerer getting to have some fun pre teen levels, instead of being stuck with completely optimal long term choices that make for a rather boring first 12 levels.

Imagine getting to use stuff like Sleep, Horror, Agannazar's Scorcher, Fireball etc early on without kicking yourself because they're all very subpar picks by the time you get to late SoA/ToB.

subtledoctor said:

The bigger question is simply one of implementation - it would probably be a lot of work to create a whole new UI mechanism for this attached to the level-up screen. From a developer's perspective, it's probably just not worth it.

Honestly, it doesn't have to be a big deal. Add a green outline around currently selected spells for each spell level when leveling up, if you click a spell that's already outlined (thereby deselecting it), you get to pick another of that level instead. It doesn't have to be any more complicated than that.

There will of course be coding issues that neither you nor I can foresee, but I have full confidence in Overhaul pulling it off if they decide to implement it. I'm also not sure I buy this argument... pretty much every feature request ever made requires some form of implementation work to pull off, if they weren't interested in doing anything based on user suggestions, why even have a feature request forum?

Copastetic1985 said:

All these people talking about "beginners", "noobs", "new players", etc...it's completely irrelevant. I'm going to say that 95% of the people who are new(ish) to this game has access to the internet or other sources where they can get information to help them. In fact, I'd be surprised if ONE of those 95%'ers I mentioned didn't look up possible builds, restrictions, spells etc...on their chosen class prior to getting out of Candlekeep.

In my opinion, it's just the old players that are wanting this and then trying to justify it by saying it's for a cause other than their own.

So the first thing you do when you get a new game is look up relevant information online? You're in the clear minority, as am I. Most people just want to play the damn game they paid for, not read a bunch of very detailed sites describing exactly how to be the most efficient at the game.
Basing an entire class on the supposition that every single person that plays it are going to read guides about it first in order to not mess it up permanently... I can't find words to describe the stupidity of it.

BG:EE needs to reach out to new players. It just can't depend solely on the old die-hards. The suggestion for easing how unforgiving the Sorcerer is to new players is a small part in helping to make that happen. A very small part, but still a part. The fact that it'd make the class more fun for us oldtimers is in no way a negative either.

Copastetic1985 said:

Sorcerers are more powerful ( in terms of spells ) than a Mage or Specialist Mage, hands down. Their ONE ( SEE THAT 1 or ONE or UNO or ICHI ) drawback is that you have to meta-game them. This is something that will probably not change in BG1 or BG2.

Already answered this above when subtledoctor raised a similar, and equally incorrect, point.
But I'll reiterate the crux of it: the Sorcerer's downside is that he only gets to pick a maximum of 5 spells per level. Even with the suggested change, that downside remains. Playing a Sorcerer just won't require you to spend hours reading guides before trying your hand at it, and then resigning yourself to being worse in any single fight than a Mage in every single way until you get to SoA.

Iecerint

How are Sorcerer's balanced in the pen-and-paper game? I mean, it sounds like they're basically stronger than the BG Sorcerers due to spell-changing.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Copastetic1985

Stop, @subtledoctor. You're making too much sense on a forum. It can't be good. I still say it's just the case that people want their cake and eat it too.

[Deleted User]

The user and all related content has been deleted.

Iecerint

I'm aware that Sorcerers are not in AD&D 2nd edition, but they (and lots of other BG stuff) show up in 3rd edition. I'm asking how they're balanced in 3rd edition.

Do all the other AD&D equivalents get commensurate boosts, or what?

Tresset

@subtledoctor I haven't even tried a sorcerer in BG and the main reason is that they do not have this feature. To be honest though it seems like you and @Copastetic1985 were against the sorcerer class from the get go. That is fine with me if that is the case but I do not think it would be a good reason to ruin the fun of others like beginners who would like to try a sorcerer (not a mage, a sorcerer) or pros (like me) who would like to see some more flexibility in the class before they try it. For me a game is not about "powergaming" or anything like that. It is first and foremost about having fun. Sure I propose this for my own reasons; but that does not mean that I can't have anyone else's interests in mind. People have fun in many different ways. I say let them have their fun in their own way. That is why I think this will only help people as if you don't like the sorcerer you can simply choose not to use it. If you already like the sorcerer and do not like spell swapping you can also choose not to do it. I do not see how it would hurt you personally if other people, who have nothing to do with you and never will, want to play a more user friendly sorcerer. I personally do not like major game changing mods (Scs, Tutu, Dsotsc, or what have you) but I do not, nor will I ever, advocate that such things should be blocked from the game because of my personal tastes. If people want to have fun in that way then that is perfectly fine with me.

(I have never played the afore mentioned mods and do not know what they entail. Do not argue with me about how I was wrong about them in whatever way as it is beside the point and I don't really care anyway.)

As for implementation that would be easy. I can see an easy way to do it right now. At level up the the spell book (in a similar format to the new spell selection screen only with your currently known spells) pops up and you click on spells you want to forget (if any) and then hit "ok". Then the new spell selection screen pops up like normal and you can select the spells you need. Simple! I can not even begin to imagine that this would be anywhere near as hard for the devs as making up new kits from whole cloth and making sure that they are well balanced and bug free. Or we could consider other things that they have done like draw up new areas, make new characters and everything that goes with them (dialog, plot, voice acting, etc.). I could probably have it working in a day or two if I had the awesomeness that is dev editing tools and probably in less than a day if I had the dev know how as well.

In any case @ everyone I do not mind this fine discussion we are having; just make sure to keep it civil. It seems to be getting a bit heated at the moment.

Copastetic1985

@Tresset

I'm not against the Sorcerer at all. I've run one through SoA ( not ToB ) and it was fine. What I am against, is making one class obsolete because of these "improvements" on a class that in reality, doesn't need them.

Tresset

@Copastetic1985 I still do not think this improvement to a sorcerer makes a mage obsolete. Mages can get all the spells and can cast them any time they want provided they prepare. Then there is the wild mage. I think they are far better than sorcerers, even the ones I propose. Reason? Nahal's "cast any spell in the book even the ones far above and beyond your level as a level one spell as if under improved alacrity" Reckless Dowemer. That combined with the extra spell slot per level blows sorcerers out of the water in my opinion. Of course that's just me.

Personally I see the sorcerer as the only class in the game that you can easily screw up during the course of your play. I personally do not think that it should really be a possibility to screw up any class. Certain spells make other spells obsolete. Unless you look up all the spells beforehand (I do not think that should be a requirement) you have no Idea what to pick. Sorcerers probably deserve a mulligan of some sort.

Thanks for clarifying your position.

Mordeus

The developers really should allow custom spell menu lists for each kit. So you could have a Sorcerer Kit that picks only from level 1 spells, and the spells get upgraded upon certain levels. I think that would be the easier option than deleting old spells and replacing them with new ones.

So you'd start with 6 level 1 spells only and upon leveling, the Armor spell turns into Ghost Armor and eventually turns into Spirit Armor. In 2ed sourcebooks there's also Armor like spells, for example Phantom Armor. So you could have a whole series of spell lines.

In a way it might make the Sorcerer more challenging since you are cutting the Sorcerer's total spell amount to 36 (6 uses of 6 spells).

But that is something quite easy to do via mods, that is if you can have custom spell menu lists like you can have custom HLA menu lists.