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IWD Random Treasure

QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
edited September 2013 in Off-Topic
Like okay, I get it, there's a metric crap-ton of treasure in IWD so they have to make treasure random and that's cool and all but UUUGHGHGHGHAGHAGHGHHGAHG ASDFJKL

IT'S A LITTLE FREAKIN' DISAPPOINTING WHEN YOU GET A POTION AND A +15% STEALTH RING INSTEAD OF ELVEN CHAINMAIL!! AGHAGHHAGHGHHHH!!

I know you can overcome it by abusing game saves. But it ruins immersion and IWD's strongest point is its immersion and ... agghhh!! If only there were some way to fix this troublesome issue. -_-; Somebody should make a mod that addresses this somehow...

EDIT:

Some ideas that were developed later on that are freakin' brilliant:
deltago said:

2. Have a trader somewhere in the game that will trade random generated loot for other random generated loot that the party hasn't picked up yet for a price. You can only trade, you cannot buy an item outright.

CamDawg said:

Riffing on @deltago's #2, I think I'll be coding up a third option. You'd get a random item, but a new merchant in Kuldahar (or Lonelywood for the expansion items) would do a one-time swap, for a fee, for a different item on the table. I like this option for a number of reasons--it takes away the meta-gaming issue (if you didn't know a chest was special, you can still get it swapped) and provides minimal immersion interruption with the swap mechanism.

Post edited by Quartz on
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Comments

  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    Yes, I also really hate random loot. I end up just cheating and give my party all of the possible loot.
  • KingGhidorahKingGhidorah Member Posts: 201
    I actually like the random treasure feature. :)
    And IIRC its actially NOT possible to abuse reloading to get different dtuff. I thought it was all set in the beginning of the game?
  • HaHaCharadeHaHaCharade Member Posts: 1,644
    edited April 2013
    Ha, IWD random loot has actually grown on me but it *can* be irritating.

    Here's my strategy, which is pretty much what CamDawg said above.

    1) Save before entering an area
    2) Seperate save after entering area
    3) Sprint with one character to where the random loot is
    4) Check to see if its what you want
    5) Reload if not, Repeat

    Of course, sometimes its *extra* irritating, when multiple random items drop in the same area (ex. Severed Hand). I tend to sometimes just hack the game and put in the random drops I want. Some may call it cheating, I call it saving time.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    atcDave said:

    I really like the random loot, it adds to the replay value a lot. I actually wish they would add it to BG.

    You mean something like this?

    Item Randomiser, a large-scale random treasure mod for Baldur's Gate and Baldur's Gate II at Gibberlings 3 modding website

    Not sure if it works with BGEE, but I use it in BGT all the time and it adds some re-playability. It doesn't move everything like diablo or something, but it moves a few key items between a few key locations. I think it works well.
  • atcDaveatcDave Member Posts: 2,387
    Yeah I've used that, I think with a tutu game? It's been a while...
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Like I said. I know how to work around it, but it does kind of break immersion. And yes, the Severed Hand is *exactly* what just screwed me over, what with its multiple floors, where you can't access half of the floor without going up a different floor, etc... -_-; It's awesome and all, but my Bard is crying now at our failure to obtain any Elven Chain.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    So let's say there was some young, handsome modder looking to, oh, say, tweak this a bit. What would you recommend to such a person? Remove the 'crappy' items from the table? Remove everything but the best item? Run a script against the party and try to guess the best item? An immersion-breaking 'what do you want' dialogue?
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    CamDawg said:

    So let's say there was some young, handsome modder looking to, oh, say, tweak this a bit. What would you recommend to such a person? Remove the 'crappy' items from the table? Remove everything but the best item? Run a script against the party and try to guess the best item? An immersion-breaking 'what do you want' dialogue?

    Place every possible item in the container.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Awong124 said:

    CamDawg said:

    So let's say there was some young, handsome modder looking to, oh, say, tweak this a bit. What would you recommend to such a person? Remove the 'crappy' items from the table? Remove everything but the best item? Run a script against the party and try to guess the best item? An immersion-breaking 'what do you want' dialogue?

    Place every possible item in the container.
    This.

    Normally I would be against this sort of thing because I do have a sense of game balance, but since it's a mod that would do one, very clear, concise thing, I think it's okay ... people would know what they're getting themselves into.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    OK, so let's further assume that this brave Adonis, this Cadillac of modders, really doesn't like the Monty Haul option. What other options would players be interested in?
  • alannahsmithalannahsmith Member Posts: 143
    An option when you start the game that lets you choose what items are dropped. Or a specific "package" of items. Like all the good OP items or all the not so good items or a mixture. I'm not a modder so I would have no idea how to go about any of this. But that is my suggestion.
  • CalmarCalmar Member Posts: 688
    I don't always play Icewind Dale, but when I do, I like to find other stuff than the last time I played. Stay inquisitive, my friends. :)
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    @CamDawg I'm not following this Liberty Mutual of modding. How about randomly moving around all +2 weapons and above and all I don't know good armor?
  • Awong124Awong124 Member Posts: 2,642
    Calmar said:

    I don't always play Icewind Dale, but when I do, I like to find other stuff than the last time I played. Stay inquisitive, my friends. :)

    That only works if you don't already know what all the possible stuff are.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited April 2013
    Awong124 said:

    That only works if you don't already know what all the possible stuff are.

    Nailed it.

    "Oh I remember last time I got a belt of Bless here."
    *Opens chest*
    QUIET BOOTS - 7% STEALTH
    "...fml"

    And before anyone suggests I somehow forget about these items; that's seriously impossible unless I got Alzheimer's. I gave this game a good 3 year break or so and I'm still remembering half of the items.
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    I have to apologise with all IWD fans today, i make a run on insane difficult, and man, this game rocks on insane. The entire environment change as you have more enemies and sometimes strongest verions of a kind of enemy by plaiyng the game on insane, also you get a double xp reward for play the game harder (which i found essential to stimulate my game play on the actual difficult).

    The lack of NPCs joinable is a problem for me still, but if Heart of Fury difficult later keep the rhythm, i will trully indeed enjoy replay the game.

    Baldur's Gate could benefit of the difficult system of IWD.
  • KingGhidorahKingGhidorah Member Posts: 201
    I once played a heart of fury game with 4 characters starting at lvl1. Was such a blast!

    I even soloed iwd2 with a lvl1 sorcerer on hof. Good times...
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @kamuizin Ahhh yes I know! IWD really gets some things so right, it just gets a bad rep sometimes because it screwed up a few things. (Not terribly compelling plot, no NPCs, not enough sidequests)
  • kamuizinkamuizin Member Posts: 3,704
    just a guess, is possible to become fallen with paladins or rangers in IWD?
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    CamDawg said:

    OK, so let's further assume that this brave Adonis, this Cadillac of modders, really doesn't like the Monty Haul option. What other options would players be interested in?

    1. Have all the items available, however, you can only take one from the chest. Once you remove an item, all the others disappear.

    2. Have a trader somewhere in the game that will trade random generated loot for other random generated loot that the party hasn't picked up yet for a price. You can only trade, you cannot buy an item outright.

    3. Like 1, but you only randomly generate a select amount, lets say 4 items, that the party can choose from. The party chooses one of the items, and the other 3 disappear. The next random chest, the 3 that the party didn't choose will reappear with a new 4th item. If a party doesn't choose an item for 5 consecutive chests, that item will be removed and never reappear being replaced by another new random item. Rinse repeat.

    4. Have a random loot bag in the inventory. A once per day use item that will change the structure of any item placed in it for another item on the random loot list. Using this bag, will cost both gold and xp and the results are still random. You may get stuck with a worse item, however, you only have wait one more day to attempt again.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Wow @deltago, some brilliant ideas there!
    kamuizin said:

    just a guess, is possible to become fallen with paladins or rangers in IWD?

    Yeah, although the rep system is invisible if you go around killing innocents you can become Fallen.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    @Quartz. Thank you, but I am no "young, handsome modder looking to, oh, say, tweak this a bit."
    Maybe you should attempt to find one, or if all else fails, ask @Camdawg nicely.
  • CamDawgCamDawg Member, Developer Posts: 3,438
    Woo, time to revive this.

    I really wish I had checked this thread and seen @deltago's ideas before I spent all day coding.
    deltago said:

    1. Have all the items available, however, you can only take one from the chest. Once you remove an item, all the others disappear.

    I don't like this option, mainly because if you didn't know it was a 'special' chest you'd just start looting, pick up the first option and then wonder where the hell everything went. Even if you did, so many IWD items re-use the same icons and you may not pick the right one you want. E.g. you can't tell a Mage Dagger +1 from a Static Dagger +1 because they look the same (and they're in the same random drop... ugh).
    deltago said:

    2. Have a trader somewhere in the game that will trade random generated loot for other random generated loot that the party hasn't picked up yet for a price. You can only trade, you cannot buy an item outright.

    I like this; more below.
    deltago said:

    3. Like 1, but you only randomly generate a select amount, lets say 4 items, that the party can choose from. The party chooses one of the items, and the other 3 disappear. The next random chest, the 3 that the party didn't choose will reappear with a new 4th item. If a party doesn't choose an item for 5 consecutive chests, that item will be removed and never reappear being replaced by another new random item. Rinse repeat.

    This is essentially unworkable mainly because (scripting-wise) you have to know the explicit names of the containers.
    deltago said:

    4. Have a random loot bag in the inventory. A once per day use item that will change the structure of any item placed in it for another item on the random loot list. Using this bag, will cost both gold and xp and the results are still random. You may get stuck with a worse item, however, you only have wait one more day to attempt again.

    This is doable, but I suspect it would mainly serve to annoy the players--if we're essentially going to let them pick, there are simpler ways to do so. :)

    Now the good news is that I've spent a pleasant day with the IWD drop tables, found (and fixed) a bug in them for IWD Fixpack, found some new unused items for UB, and coded up two variants of friendly random drops for Tweaks:

    Re-randomize on reload. The simplest option. You reload or re-enter an area with a random drop and the item will change, so you could mash quickload until you get the item you want. This is the least immersion breaking, but also slightly annoying since you might have to reload a few times if you have your heart set on a specific item. You'd also run into the meta-gaming aspect again if you didn't know a chest was 'special'.

    Pick your random drop Random drops are replaced with tokens; once you have one the token genie appears and swaps it for your choice of the random items. Immersion-breaking, but definitely the best in terms of convenience.

    Riffing on @deltago's #2, I think I'll be coding up a third option. You'd get a random item, but a new merchant in Kuldahar (or Lonelywood for the expansion items) would do a one-time swap, for a fee, for a different item on the table. I like this option for a number of reasons--it takes away the meta-gaming issue (if you didn't know a chest was special, you can still get it swapped) and provides minimal immersion interruption with the swap mechanism.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    @CamDawg you are just awesome. I agree deltago's #2 option is fantastic.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    i find it kind of annoying that i know of every single good weapon in bg so i will rush there and get it rather than enjoying the game
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    zur312 said:

    i find it kind of annoying that i know of every single good weapon in bg so i will rush there and get it rather than enjoying the game

    There is a mod for that.

  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Meh, the random item thing is only annoying if you meta-game. At no point is it written that you will receive a specific item, unless it absolutely essential for plot progression. I actually quite like it, because you can't rely on getting a specific item, and forces you to tailor your over-all playthrough differently each time. The instant you reload to try and get a specific item, another chance at learning a spell, or get a better hp roll, you've begun to Roll-play. Part of Roleplaying is making the most of what a game throws at you.


    It still boggles the mind that IWD, is both more RP-oriented and anti-powergamer, then BG...even though it's a dungeon crawler at heart.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853

    It still boggles the mind that IWD, is both more RP-oriented and anti-powergamer, than BG...even though it's a dungeon crawler at heart.

    Yeahhh, pretty interesting I've gotta admit.

    I think the main thing that really set me off here was how I got screwed out of any sort of Elven Chain Mail. Both of those armor drops are a random chance, so your bard can be pretty gimped.
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