Only slightly....the armor spell has a purpose again!? (assuming you're using a melee bard...shield is fine for ranged bard, since you shouldn't even NEED armor).
It's interesting having to make due with spells you would normally never touch, if given a choice. Which is a bit sad in a way, since both games have SOOO many spells...but since there are clearly superior choices for the slots, they never get used. Items are the same really....how often do people use clubs unless they're a beastmaster? Or me? Or the other under-represented or lackluster armament types? All those potions, aside from narrow focus-ones or for shoplifting? Those massive pleathora of Usable items, that just never seem to get a lot of press, since a power-gamed character doesn't need them.
The random item thing is actually quite liberating, since you literally never have the same exact playthrough twice...or at least not with enough certainty that you can plan around it. That technically means Icewind Dale has infinitely more replayability then the whole BG saga, despite MUCH fewer side quests and no npcs to check how they interact with each other.
Ummm Armor makes you AC 6. Pretty sure the Elven Chainmail I'm thinking of puts you at AC 3, and also has Cold Resistance. It's not even comparable ... hell, I already had that bard equipped with the Bracers of AC 6, so again, Armor is totally useless. I really don't see how your suggestion is helping me. xD
I like the random treasure overall for the same reasons you state; it just feels incredibly lame when you miss both your chances at a really great item that is very much unique. It's not the difference between ending up with a sword +2 because you missed your shot at a sword +3, it's the difference between your bard running around completely naked vs. equipped with some worthwhile armor.
I've been playing IWD recently for the first time and the random loot thing hasn't bothered me at all. I've missed out on a bunch of useful stuff (no elven chain for me either) but I'm enjoying the challenge of working with what I have available.
Ha, IWD random loot has actually grown on me but it *can* be irritating.
Here's my strategy, which is pretty much what CamDawg said above.
1) Save before entering an area 2) Seperate save after entering area 3) Sprint with one character to where the random loot is 4) Check to see if its what you want 5) Reload if not, Repeat
Of course, sometimes its *extra* irritating, when multiple random items drop in the same area (ex. Severed Hand). I tend to sometimes just hack the game and put in the random drops I want. Some may call it cheating, I call it saving time.
I really like the random loot, it adds to the replay value a lot. I actually wish they would add it to BG.
Yeah!
What upsets me, is I no longer have my CDs on hand, they're around 2000 miles to the East. I have my Good Old Games version, but that doesn't let me have all the neat loot I could have in the original version of Icewind Dale! #FirstWorldProblems
I agree it is only annoying if you go look up the gear ahead, or play guided by online walkthroughs.
It is actually pretty nifty if you randomly get a gold potion that grants a perma +5% magic resistance. Or a trade off one with +2/-1 stat that is actually helpful.
Random loot gives an "oh I found something cool" feeling. Which is broken if you cheat or metagame.
I agree it is only annoying if you go look up the gear ahead, or play guided by online walkthroughs.
Oooor you know. Play the game more than once. Like ever. Even if you separate your playthroughs by several years, you're going to remember "that one awesome item you got last time."
And since you know the loot is random, there no reason to have expectations of getting a specific item in the first place, if it happens, great, if not oh well you can make do without it.
It's one of the elements I find interesting about IWD, in that it basically gives PGers the finger, since you can't base your min/maxed build around items you can't guarantee you'll get, and does greatly add to the re-playability. Even though you already know the plot, the fact that the gear you get is fairly randomized makes each playthrough unique, since you'll have to adapt if don't get certain spells or certain items this time around.
That makes it closer to a PnP feel, then BG is, since you are NEVER guaranteed to receive a specific item in PnP (aside from an Undead Hunter who WILL receive a Purifier-class holy sword, at some point (lvl 6 by default)).
If you can make it yourself or hire someone who can, that's one thing, but the rest is totally up to the DM and/or RNG on the loot table.
And since you know the loot is random, there no reason to have expectations of getting a specific item in the first place, if it happens, great, if not oh well you can make do without it.
No offense but this line of logic is bogus since we're different people. You like the mechanic. I find it dissatisfying. There is no changing that. We're different people.
To be entirely honest, I'm not as militantly against the mechanic as I was when I made this thread. Still, a few people in this thread have come up with some really cool ideas that *don't* spoil the immersion so I have no regrets creating this.
Hmmm I can't really wrap my head around this... so, you could have found elven chainmail and got some item that was less useful... so? The game is not too hard, is it really necessary to have all the best equipment all the time? Plus, if you have everything that's best, there is no suspense in future loot, is there? Just trying to understand what the problem is...
Hmmm I can't really wrap my head around this... so, you could have found elven chainmail and got some item that was less useful... so? The game is not too hard, is it really necessary to have all the best equipment all the time? Plus, if you have everything that's best, there is no suspense in future loot, is there? Just trying to understand what the problem is...
It isn't about getting "all the best," it's about not being severely screwed over by a simple chance. I'll give an example: In one instance, you can randomly either get Elven Chain, Boots of Speed, some gloves that give you +1 Dexterity, or a ring of +20% Move Silently.
Now personally, I'd be happy with any of those first three, but does that last one sound even worthy of being grouped together there?
Also, I got the feeling you just sort of read the opening post and then replied. You should probably read some more of the thread; people have floated around some pretty interesting ideas to be frank, some ideas that don't really break immersion (which is IWD's strongest point).
Except that you don't NEED any of it to beat the game, so you are never screwed because of a random drop.
Even if you design a character around acquiring 1 single item, that you might not even get (a really dumb idea in the first place), you are never screwed, you might be less effective depending on how heavily built around that item you were, yes, but DnD is flexible enough that you can continue on anyway.
The randomized items is IWD's answer to less exploration and no joinable NPCs vs BG. Every run is different because you never know exactly which items will drop this run, and need to be prepared to make due with what you have. Removing the randomized items removes any reason to be replaying IWD.
Do you think I am not understanding you or something? I understand your viewpoint. Your viewpoint on the matter is a legitimate and respectable opinion, as is mine. Did I not settle this when I said "You like the mechanic. I find it dissatisfying. There is no changing that. We're different people." ??
Is this just about "winning" an argument to you or something? You're seriously getting incredibly annoying. You're not actually contributing anything to the thread anymore. You said your piece which was very helpful to the thread, but now you're just repeating yourself, and I'm starting to feel harassed. Please stop.
Not so much about winning, it's taking one of the defining features that really separates IWD from the other Infinity engine games and is a key element of the games replayability, and saying it's fine to remove it.
Then why does this thread exist? If you already have your opinion, and I already have my opinion, and everyone else already has their own opinion, why should this thread have a purpose?
Why do you respond to anyone's claims, parroting the same thing you said, originally *wah, wah, I didn't get X item that I knew I wasn't guaranteed to get, so I'm gonna reload/SK/Console/mod to make it work the way I want it".
err, this thread has a purpose because it was discussing adding a mod to a game. One that allows a player to customize their experience the way they want to play the game.
Players who own the game have a choice, to either download the mod and use it, or to play the game how the original devs intended it to be played. This mod would not effect anyone else who owns the game.
Most new players of this game wouldn't even know of this mod, or what items are random. It is only players who've played this game many times would benefit from it as they know what items are random and not. Quartz original concern was he didn't like breaking immersion when playing the game. His immersion is being broken whenever he comes to a random item chest. The suggested mod allows him continue playing the game, knowing that he'll be able to switch out ONE unwanted item later in game. Players will be still stuck using what they received in the chest till that time. His immersion will no longer be broken and it adds another small element of strategy to the game as only one item can be switched out, a player must choose wisely as he doesn't know what he is going to get in the future.
Except the fact that he's changing the game is already immersion breaking. Modding the game is no more immersion breaking then reloading, consoling, or SKing something in. Hence the Hypocrisy.
There is nothing immersion breaking about the games method of insuring that each replay is slightly different, even if you have meta-knowledge of what could drop...you never know for sure what it's going to be. The moment you let meta-knowledge influence a choice, you've already shattered your immersion, because you aren't immersing your self in the story, you're just playing with numbers.
Except the fact that he's changing the game is already immersion breaking. Modding the game is no more immersion breaking then reloading, consoling, or SKing something in. Hence the Hypocrisy.
It is not immersion breaking. Immersion means being deeply engaged or involved. Adding a mod does not break immersion. A player can still be captivated by the story, the battles and tactics of a game with mods installed. They can actually help if done properly as I outlined above.
There is a old saying when it comes to infinity games as well that you may need to heed. "I'll play my game the way I want, and you can play your's the way you want. It doesn't change anything."
The thread started as such: "Oh man. IWD random items are so rough. I want to get a few specific items for sure, like Elven Chainmail. I know I could reload, but that breaks immersion for me."
The thread continued as: "Hey, that frustrates me sometimes too! We should make a mod for people like us so that we can get those few items that are really important to us without disrupting our immersion in this great game."
Also, we've gotten some helpful comments that challenge us to think a little harder, because as some point out, the random treasure can really be part of the charm of the game, especially compared alongside the Baldur's Gate series. We're trying to develop an idea for a mod that could allow us to consistently work towards those items that we personally deem essential without derailing Icewind Dale's best trait; its level of immersion.
Where the comments stop being helpful is where you start repeating the same points over and over again. You say I'm a hypocrite because I'm using the same replies repeatedly. What else am I supposed to do when you keep attacking me with the same questions? "You're metagaming." The plethora of random treasure scattered about the game gives you an interesting play experience each time, it's true. However there are some random treasures that really feel like they shouldn't be random, because they're of pretty big consequence. One of peoples' biggest complaints with BG:EE is that the new big items are contained in NPC-specific quests while the new inconsequential items are very easy to get your hands on. (e.g. Neera having the only Gem Bag in the game.) That's kind of a similar problem as to what I'm talking about, if that helps. "You're ruining immersion." Actually, the entire point of this thread from square one has been "yes, I understand I could metagame the hell out of this game and get all the items I want by abusing reloading. But while there are certain items I have great fondness for, I still DO value the games' immersion, so I'm stuck. Thoughts??" "You don't NEED those items to beat the game." Yeah. You're right. There are some items however that I find very enjoyable, and since playing a game is all about entertaining yourself then logically I want to have those items. I realize all I've mentioned is Elven Chain, which sounds power-gamey; I should specify, I also very much enjoy some of the electrical items scattered throughout the game that are also random. While they are hardly a big deal, I still like having them in my playthroughs, because I find them fun, even though they are easily replaceable.
@CamDawg How about for every chest that contains unique / semi-unique (only 2-ish chances of getting) items, a 'token' per assigned random item in the chest is found instead. This token is then traded to an in-game merchant for 1 of X items. The number and types of items contained in X would be dictated by the random item table originally assigned to the chest with the token(s). This NPC could be an antiquities dealer, or some other suitable lore. The token being some lore-flavored artifact used to trade with this antiquities dealer. If the player doesn't want any of those items, the token would be worth the average amount of GP as all the items on the specific special random treasure table, including any trash items on the table to encompass the chance of getting such.
You could have 1 token per discrete random item table, creating a system of tokens tiered to their respective item classes. I think to make this reasonable, you would keep a certain amount of random chests like the ones that give generic +1/2 items and potions/gems.
You could have several tiers for what tokens are found, such as:
+1/2 'unique' weapons / armor +1 'unique' accessory items (rings/amulets; though maybe this is too commonplace for tokens) +Z 'unique' accessory items (higher power than above, +2 rings special rings, unique amulets etc) +3+ unique weapons +3+ unique armor high level spell scrolls
I would probably default to tiered tokens mirroring the random tables the loot is pulled from, tbh.
@CamDawg Plz say that you made a progress. I've tried A Gibberlings Three Mod with new weidu .exe but it does't work. I don't know about others but I would pay a few bucks for this great option. I'm powergamer when it comes to Infinty Engine games and I'm very sad about random drops, one of my favourite things about BG2 was that I've played it som much times, when I started a new run after hour I've had everything I've needed in case of items> Can we hear about any progress in modding? Best regards!
@Quartz - LOL. I'm there with ya. I wish that I could selectively erase my memories of play throughs of the Infinity Engine games (and several other franchises for that matter) so I could go back and re-discover them. Wouldn't that be awesome?
And sorry, I didn't see that someone else had resurrected this thread. My bad.
@CamDawg Are you alive, man? I see that you made the mod for IWD tweaks pack, but that doesn't work for EE apparently. Are you going to make an EE version sometime? Thanks!
Comments
It's interesting having to make due with spells you would normally never touch, if given a choice. Which is a bit sad in a way, since both games have SOOO many spells...but since there are clearly superior choices for the slots, they never get used. Items are the same really....how often do people use clubs unless they're a beastmaster? Or me? Or the other under-represented or lackluster armament types? All those potions, aside from narrow focus-ones or for shoplifting? Those massive pleathora of Usable items, that just never seem to get a lot of press, since a power-gamed character doesn't need them.
The random item thing is actually quite liberating, since you literally never have the same exact playthrough twice...or at least not with enough certainty that you can plan around it. That technically means Icewind Dale has infinitely more replayability then the whole BG saga, despite MUCH fewer side quests and no npcs to check how they interact with each other.
I like the random treasure overall for the same reasons you state; it just feels incredibly lame when you miss both your chances at a really great item that is very much unique. It's not the difference between ending up with a sword +2 because you missed your shot at a sword +3, it's the difference between your bard running around completely naked vs. equipped with some worthwhile armor.
Yeah!
What upsets me, is I no longer have my CDs on hand, they're around 2000 miles to the East.
#FirstWorldProblems
It is actually pretty nifty if you randomly get a gold potion that grants a perma +5% magic resistance. Or a trade off one with +2/-1 stat that is actually helpful.
Random loot gives an "oh I found something cool" feeling. Which is broken if you cheat or metagame.
It's one of the elements I find interesting about IWD, in that it basically gives PGers the finger, since you can't base your min/maxed build around items you can't guarantee you'll get, and does greatly add to the re-playability. Even though you already know the plot, the fact that the gear you get is fairly randomized makes each playthrough unique, since you'll have to adapt if don't get certain spells or certain items this time around.
That makes it closer to a PnP feel, then BG is, since you are NEVER guaranteed to receive a specific item in PnP (aside from an Undead Hunter who WILL receive a Purifier-class holy sword, at some point (lvl 6 by default)).
If you can make it yourself or hire someone who can, that's one thing, but the rest is totally up to the DM and/or RNG on the loot table.
To be entirely honest, I'm not as militantly against the mechanic as I was when I made this thread. Still, a few people in this thread have come up with some really cool ideas that *don't* spoil the immersion so I have no regrets creating this.
Now personally, I'd be happy with any of those first three, but does that last one sound even worthy of being grouped together there?
Also, I got the feeling you just sort of read the opening post and then replied. You should probably read some more of the thread; people have floated around some pretty interesting ideas to be frank, some ideas that don't really break immersion (which is IWD's strongest point).
Even if you design a character around acquiring 1 single item, that you might not even get (a really dumb idea in the first place), you are never screwed, you might be less effective depending on how heavily built around that item you were, yes, but DnD is flexible enough that you can continue on anyway.
The randomized items is IWD's answer to less exploration and no joinable NPCs vs BG. Every run is different because you never know exactly which items will drop this run, and need to be prepared to make due with what you have. Removing the randomized items removes any reason to be replaying IWD.
Do you think I am not understanding you or something? I understand your viewpoint. Your viewpoint on the matter is a legitimate and respectable opinion, as is mine. Did I not settle this when I said "You like the mechanic. I find it dissatisfying. There is no changing that. We're different people." ??
Is this just about "winning" an argument to you or something? You're seriously getting incredibly annoying. You're not actually contributing anything to the thread anymore. You said your piece which was very helpful to the thread, but now you're just repeating yourself, and I'm starting to feel harassed. Please stop.
Then why does this thread exist? If you already have your opinion, and I already have my opinion, and everyone else already has their own opinion, why should this thread have a purpose?
Why do you respond to anyone's claims, parroting the same thing you said, originally *wah, wah, I didn't get X item that I knew I wasn't guaranteed to get, so I'm gonna reload/SK/Console/mod to make it work the way I want it".
Hypocrite much?
Players who own the game have a choice, to either download the mod and use it, or to play the game how the original devs intended it to be played. This mod would not effect anyone else who owns the game.
Most new players of this game wouldn't even know of this mod, or what items are random. It is only players who've played this game many times would benefit from it as they know what items are random and not. Quartz original concern was he didn't like breaking immersion when playing the game. His immersion is being broken whenever he comes to a random item chest. The suggested mod allows him continue playing the game, knowing that he'll be able to switch out ONE unwanted item later in game. Players will be still stuck using what they received in the chest till that time. His immersion will no longer be broken and it adds another small element of strategy to the game as only one item can be switched out, a player must choose wisely as he doesn't know what he is going to get in the future.
There is nothing immersion breaking about the games method of insuring that each replay is slightly different, even if you have meta-knowledge of what could drop...you never know for sure what it's going to be. The moment you let meta-knowledge influence a choice, you've already shattered your immersion, because you aren't immersing your self in the story, you're just playing with numbers.
Adding a mod does not break immersion. A player can still be captivated by the story, the battles and tactics of a game with mods installed. They can actually help if done properly as I outlined above.
There is a old saying when it comes to infinity games as well that you may need to heed.
"I'll play my game the way I want, and you can play your's the way you want. It doesn't change anything."
"Oh man. IWD random items are so rough. I want to get a few specific items for sure, like Elven Chainmail. I know I could reload, but that breaks immersion for me."
The thread continued as:
"Hey, that frustrates me sometimes too! We should make a mod for people like us so that we can get those few items that are really important to us without disrupting our immersion in this great game."
Also, we've gotten some helpful comments that challenge us to think a little harder, because as some point out, the random treasure can really be part of the charm of the game, especially compared alongside the Baldur's Gate series. We're trying to develop an idea for a mod that could allow us to consistently work towards those items that we personally deem essential without derailing Icewind Dale's best trait; its level of immersion.
Where the comments stop being helpful is where you start repeating the same points over and over again. You say I'm a hypocrite because I'm using the same replies repeatedly. What else am I supposed to do when you keep attacking me with the same questions?
"You're metagaming."
The plethora of random treasure scattered about the game gives you an interesting play experience each time, it's true. However there are some random treasures that really feel like they shouldn't be random, because they're of pretty big consequence. One of peoples' biggest complaints with BG:EE is that the new big items are contained in NPC-specific quests while the new inconsequential items are very easy to get your hands on. (e.g. Neera having the only Gem Bag in the game.) That's kind of a similar problem as to what I'm talking about, if that helps.
"You're ruining immersion."
Actually, the entire point of this thread from square one has been "yes, I understand I could metagame the hell out of this game and get all the items I want by abusing reloading. But while there are certain items I have great fondness for, I still DO value the games' immersion, so I'm stuck. Thoughts??"
"You don't NEED those items to beat the game."
Yeah. You're right. There are some items however that I find very enjoyable, and since playing a game is all about entertaining yourself then logically I want to have those items. I realize all I've mentioned is Elven Chain, which sounds power-gamey; I should specify, I also very much enjoy some of the electrical items scattered throughout the game that are also random. While they are hardly a big deal, I still like having them in my playthroughs, because I find them fun, even though they are easily replaceable.
You could have 1 token per discrete random item table, creating a system of tokens tiered to their respective item classes. I think to make this reasonable, you would keep a certain amount of random chests like the ones that give generic +1/2 items and potions/gems.
You could have several tiers for what tokens are found, such as:
+1/2 'unique' weapons / armor
+1 'unique' accessory items (rings/amulets; though maybe this is too commonplace for tokens)
+Z 'unique' accessory items (higher power than above, +2 rings special rings, unique amulets etc)
+3+ unique weapons
+3+ unique armor
high level spell scrolls
I would probably default to tiered tokens mirroring the random tables the loot is pulled from, tbh.
Can we hear about any progress in modding?
Best regards!
I looked thru several overhaul and tweak mods and couldn't find an option for this.
Edit:
Derp, I thought this thread was in the IWD modding section of the forum.
Sorry for reviving a dead thread.
I also wrote the first post 2 1/2 years ago and don't entirely agree with myself anymore.
And sorry, I didn't see that someone else had resurrected this thread. My bad.