Regarding all this "having a code makes you lawful stuff," consider that drow society is textbook Chaotic Evil.
Drow society IS chaotic... it is all about a heirarchy that never brings order. The Matron Mothers rule, but they do not pass any laws, period. So yeah, a society can be chaotic, as long as it has literally no legal code, like the drow.
I will reply to @entropyxii... Since you mentioned education in paricular, I am a mox of self read, Literature and Engineering, but I have personally studied World History, Classical Civilizations and Russian Lit. By which I mean I have read many books that are either first hand, or are first hand analysis of sources. I know much of mythology, enough to know of Baal to enjoy irony of Forgoten Realms. My brother has 2 masters, my sister has a Phd... but I am the different one. I feel my future is in engineering and Physical Chemistry... but not everyone supports. Erm, to an insulting degree imo. But what is life if not dealing with obstacles? The worst thing, I am a very decent typer, but by machinations, I use my tablet to peck away, despite +50 WPM ability... its supposed to humble me. *rolls eyes* Then again, I might need more humility, according to some very significant people. Dont ask.
Actually, I agree, much history is subjective. So we can agreego disagree maybe? If you want, I will send some scholarly titles to support my views.
If you are creating laws, you are either lawful lr neutral. Sarevok sees human law, and he abuses it, no doubt, but lawful evil can ignore laws that thdy do not believe apply to them. Lawful Evil is about making laws for others to follow.
We've had the alignment discussion many times by now on this board
But my root formula for the alignment axes is basically as follows:
Good = help others <---------Neutral = feels only responsible for oneself-------->Evil = harm others
1) Chaotic = behave unpredictably<-------------->Lawful = behave consistently 2) Chaotic = disobey laws/rules, unfaithful to one's own word<-------Neutral = values laws/rules/consistency but willing to act outside of those constraints------->Lawful = obey laws/rules, keeps one's word
Good is the impulse towards wishing others well, to support and nurture them, care positively for them; altruism in the extreme.
Evil is the impulse towards wishing harm towards others, to maliciously inflict hurt or pain upon them, and to dominate and control them; sadism in the extreme.
Neutrality wishes neither harm nor help towards others, and holds that each individual is ultimately responsible for themselves; in the extreme the belief that the Balance (Nature) will ultimately sort everything out in the great scheme of things.
Lawful is the impulse to bring order and regulation to things, and to value consistency and dependability; dogmatism in the extreme
Chaotic is the impulse to freely according to whim, to be an unregulated 'free spirit' in one's behavior; ? in the extreme
His motives behind every action he made were Chaotic evil. The Game Designers also made his Alignment Chaotic Evil. What more do you people really need?
A Chaotic character uses whatever means he has in front of him to get the job done. He/she does not care about the laws of the land, but intelligent ones will learn them anyways so they can be used. Sarevok was taught the laws of the Sword Coast when he was growing up.
An evil character focuses on gaining personal power, wealth, or glory, even at the cost of others. Enough said.
After saying that, I wonder why this debate lasted this long. Sarevok, as it is quite obvious, used the laws of the Sword Coast to eliminate his enemies from afar, while he schemed and plotted the elimination of all of the others that were in his way outside of the law. The Law is but one of the many tools on Sarevok's path. Sarevok took every chance he could to get away with his chaotic endeavors. The only reason he ever got caught was due to the CHARNAME. The assassination of Scar and Entar, the poisoning of Duke Eltan, the utilization of dopplegangers, the attempted assassination of the remaining Dukes, his total disregard of the Iron Throne, his father, his consorts, and his massacre of the Iron Throne Leaders(should you not kill them) show that he is in fact not Lawful or Neutral Evil, but Chaotic Evil.
@DJKajuru , You see, there is a difference between Chaotic Stupid and Chaotic Evil. Regardless, I didn't think someone would actually read my post with Irenicus' voice. That is cool.
I don't feel Sarevok really uses enough brute force to get his position to be considered Chaotic Evil... I feel that he's more Neutral Evil as he is trying to get both sides to start the war behind the scenes just to advance his own goals of attempting to become the god of murder by causing quite a bit of people to die in a war.
@GemHound I truly blame the in-game descriptions for this. A good reading of the FR campaign books will sort this right out, but alas it is no use -shakes head slowly-
As I have previously stated, Sarevok is one of my favourite characters. A well thought out, well crafted villain. His morality, ethics and cunning have somehow managed to ascend the Forgotten Realms and transverse to our world, where he leaves people baffled and confused all across the land.
@Lemernis : I hope the GemHound post will convince you, because I don't know what other argumentation would :-)
Actually, I'm not making any sort of strident argument that Sarevok is other than CE. I pointed out that using the alignment descriptions provided by the game itself, the hallmark of a CE leader is typically to hold onto the Alpha position through brute force and bullying. It doesn't seem at all that Sarevok does that with either the Iron Throne or the Grand Dukes. That said, his criminal lieutenants such as Tazok almost certainly do fear him in that way, though.
But moreover, when you read the descriptions of both CE and NE for the game, they're actually a kind of foggy, hazy mess. They are poorly differentiated.
The way that I, personally, appreciate the Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful axis
1) Chaotic = behave unpredictably<-------------->Lawful = behave consistently 2) Chaotic = disobey laws/rules, unfaithful to one's own word<-------Neutral = values laws/rules/consistency but willing to act outside of those constraints------->Lawful = obey laws/rules, keeps one's word
could have Sarevok CE or LE, lol.
One dimension in which Sarevok is clearly Chaotic is that he is a criminal! He does not obey the laws of the land. Any laws are to him merely tools to be manipulated for his own personal gain. So we can consider him CE on that basis alone.
Otherwise Sarevok presents as a very careful and even methodical plotter; and not obviously unfaithful to his own word. Actually, there is Sarevok's diary to refer to (see bottom of this page) as a yardstick for how consistent/orderly versus unpredictable/impulsive he behaves, though. Methodologically, he is arguably Lawful!
I can envision Sarevok as a mafia don type of leader, who may periodically keep his underlings on their toes by behaving unpredictably and flexing his muscle (a la the more stereotypical CE leader). Maybe ordering this or that person killed just because it strikes fear into his subordinates. Etc. That would certainly be Chaotic, for example. I don't think if we have any evidence of that, though.
I think he's lawful good, and you're the real villain who wouldn't let Bhaal be born again.
I think you are both the villain, following the whims of your heritage.
It is kinda funny in ToB when you get the whole 'look what could have happened if Gorion had not taken you' thing, and the answer is absolutely nothing because you're also a mass-murdering psycho.
Comments
So Sarevok having some kind of structure in terms of his planning is not sufficient for being non-Chaotic.
I will reply to @entropyxii... Since you mentioned education in paricular, I am a mox of self read, Literature and Engineering, but I have personally studied World History, Classical Civilizations and Russian Lit. By which I mean I have read many books that are either first hand, or are first hand analysis of sources. I know much of mythology, enough to know of Baal to enjoy irony of Forgoten Realms. My brother has 2 masters, my sister has a Phd... but I am the different one.
Actually, I agree, much history is subjective. So we can agreego disagree maybe? If you want, I will send some scholarly titles to support my views.
If you are creating laws, you are either lawful lr neutral. Sarevok sees human law, and he abuses it, no doubt, but lawful evil can ignore laws that thdy do not believe apply to them. Lawful Evil is about making laws for others to follow.
But my root formula for the alignment axes is basically as follows:
Good = help others <---------Neutral = feels only responsible for oneself-------->Evil = harm others
1) Chaotic = behave unpredictably<-------------->Lawful = behave consistently
2) Chaotic = disobey laws/rules, unfaithful to one's own word<-------Neutral = values laws/rules/consistency but willing to act outside of those constraints------->Lawful = obey laws/rules, keeps one's word
Good is the impulse towards wishing others well, to support and nurture them, care positively for them; altruism in the extreme.
Evil is the impulse towards wishing harm towards others, to maliciously inflict hurt or pain upon them, and to dominate and control them; sadism in the extreme.
Neutrality wishes neither harm nor help towards others, and holds that each individual is ultimately responsible for themselves; in the extreme the belief that the Balance (Nature) will ultimately sort everything out in the great scheme of things.
Lawful is the impulse to bring order and regulation to things, and to value consistency and dependability; dogmatism in the extreme
Chaotic is the impulse to freely according to whim, to be an unregulated 'free spirit' in one's behavior; ? in the extreme
A Chaotic character uses whatever means he has in front of him to get the job done. He/she does not care about the laws of the land, but intelligent ones will learn them anyways so they can be used. Sarevok was taught the laws of the Sword Coast when he was growing up.
An evil character focuses on gaining personal power, wealth, or glory, even at the cost of others. Enough said.
After saying that, I wonder why this debate lasted this long. Sarevok, as it is quite obvious, used the laws of the Sword Coast to eliminate his enemies from afar, while he schemed and plotted the elimination of all of the others that were in his way outside of the law. The Law is but one of the many tools on Sarevok's path. Sarevok took every chance he could to get away with his chaotic endeavors. The only reason he ever got caught was due to the CHARNAME. The assassination of Scar and Entar, the poisoning of Duke Eltan, the utilization of dopplegangers, the attempted assassination of the remaining Dukes, his total disregard of the Iron Throne, his father, his consorts, and his massacre of the Iron Throne Leaders(should you not kill them) show that he is in fact not Lawful or Neutral Evil, but Chaotic Evil.
As I have previously stated, Sarevok is one of my favourite characters. A well thought out, well crafted villain. His morality, ethics and cunning have somehow managed to ascend the Forgotten Realms and transverse to our world, where he leaves people baffled and confused all across the land.
Here is an excellent description of chaotic evil: http://easydamus.com/chaoticevil.html
But moreover, when you read the descriptions of both CE and NE for the game, they're actually a kind of foggy, hazy mess. They are poorly differentiated.
The way that I, personally, appreciate the Chaotic-Neutral-Lawful axis could have Sarevok CE or LE, lol.
One dimension in which Sarevok is clearly Chaotic is that he is a criminal! He does not obey the laws of the land. Any laws are to him merely tools to be manipulated for his own personal gain. So we can consider him CE on that basis alone.
Otherwise Sarevok presents as a very careful and even methodical plotter; and not obviously unfaithful to his own word. Actually, there is Sarevok's diary to refer to (see bottom of this page) as a yardstick for how consistent/orderly versus unpredictable/impulsive he behaves, though. Methodologically, he is arguably Lawful!
I can envision Sarevok as a mafia don type of leader, who may periodically keep his underlings on their toes by behaving unpredictably and flexing his muscle (a la the more stereotypical CE leader). Maybe ordering this or that person killed just because it strikes fear into his subordinates. Etc. That would certainly be Chaotic, for example. I don't think if we have any evidence of that, though.
They are persuaded that their actions a good (yeah for themselves at least), and others are bad.