**spoilers** Sarevok, is without a doubt Chaotic Evil. I have never seen him as anything else. The way I see it, is that chaotic characters follow their own moral compass, regardless of social constructs. They do what they think is right - even if that 'right' is actually down right evil in the eyes of others.
Sarevok believes himself better than everyone else - above the petty laws and squabbles of the nobility. He used their own laws against them, attempting to very intelligently cause a violent revolution. Revolutionists, by their very nature are chaotic. Just because he used the laws of Baldur's Gate to his advantage did not mean he didn't think them worthless. In fact, his actions actually show complete disregard for the laws of the land - as in most cultures revolutionaries are in fact traitors. As Sarevok is actually incredible intelligent he knew that he could not accomplish what he needed to do by direct force and a more subtle approach must be taken. This may seem like Neutral Evil at first but it is mentioned throughout the game that Sarevok genuinely struggled to abide by the rules set out before him, and the only reason everybody didn't gang up against him was because he was a charismatic individual who managed to gain many allies. His own father was afraid of him.
It is said in many of the FR campaign books that it takes an incredible powerful individual to be able to control chaotic evil characters, and the individual must usually be seen to be aiming for the same goal. This can be seen in Throne of Bhaal. Sarevok follows you because he has no reason not to. He can no longer claim the throne of Bhaal for himself, and thus he now wishes to see the protagonist to the fate in which he missed out. If I remember correctly, he even has a massive go at the protagonist if he/she refuses to take the chance at godhood. He doesn't follow the character because he has to (unless you made him take the geas), he follows the protagonist because he wants to. He doesn't attack the main character like a raving lunatic in revenge, because Sarevok is not a raving lunatic.
In essence, Sarevok does what he wants, when he wants, using whatever means necessary to get it. He certainly knows what he's doing though and won't throw his own life away through stupidity.
I always thought an orc or ogre was a pitiful attempt at truly explaining a chaotic evil alignment. While it is definitely sufficient for the task. Think of the terms of whom Sarevok really is. He's a person who's calculating and malicious with no regard for the feelings, wants or cares of others; think of, Kratos, from God of War, he's not at all dumb or mindlessly brained.
He's a person who's just evil to the core. Entirely psychopathic, that's a chaotic evil alignment. Notably, these people often have at least an average intelligence level but if they apply themselves like anyone...
I always thought an orc or ogre was a pitiful attempt at truly explaining a chaotic evil alignment. While it is definitely sufficient for the task. Think of the terms of whom Sarevok really is. He's a person who's calculating and malicious with no regard for the feelings, wants or cares of others; think of, Kratos, from God of War, he's not at all dumb or mindlessly brained.
He's a person who's just evil to the core. Entirely psychopathic, that's a chaotic evil alignment. Notably, these people often have at least an average intelligence level but if they apply themselves like anyone...
A good way to look at it is this: Genghis Khan is most likely the perfect example of Chaotic Evil in our world - and as close to Sarevok as you can get. Vlad the Impaler is another good example.
Both very incredibly intelligent, but very impulsive - needing to be in power to accomplish the things they did. Genghis Khan in fact was seen as a tactical powerhouse, easily out witting many of his opponents but often giving in to his ruthless and violent tendencies. Not all psychopaths are stupid. The ones that are stupid get caught or get dead an awful lot quicker.
Chaotic Evil =/= raving lunatic marauder incapable of rationale thought
He's Chaotic, because rules and laws are meaningless to him, if not an outright hindrance. He's Evil because he is solely interested in his own power and has no problem causing untold strife and suffering to accomplish his goals.
@SCARY_WIZARD aha! well thanks I actually think Sarevok is quite possibly the most thought out, well designed character in the series. He has so many levels to his character and it's the small things in his personality which give away his alignment. If they wrote the BG series of books purely about Sarevok I would have been a much happier man.
Sarevok's alignment is perfect for him - unlike a number of other FR character's i'd rather not name ;P -cough-Drizzt-cough-
Neutral evil characters are primarily concerned with themselves and their own advancement. Their only interest is in getting ahead. If there is a quick and easy way to gain a profit, whether it be legal, questionable, or obviously illegal, they take advantage of it. Although neutral evil characters do not have the every-man-for-himself attitude of chaotic evil characters, they have no qualms about betraying their friends and companions for personal gain. They typically base their allegiance on power and money, which makes them quite receptive to bribes.
Chaotic Evil
Chaotic evil characters are motivated by the desire for personal gain and pleasure. The strong have the right to take what they want, and the weak are there to be exploited. When chaotic evil characters band together, they are not motivated by a desire to cooperate but rather to oppose powerful enemies. Such a group can be held together only by a strong leader capable of bullying his underlings into obedience. Since leadership is based on raw power, a leader is likely to be replaced at the first sign of weakness by anyone who can take his position away.
He does seem impressively calculating, and quite the Machiavellian schemer. Sarevok doesn't maintain his leadership by virtue of raw power, but rather by cunning. He's a plotter.
But he wants to start a bloodshed around the Sword Coast so that he can prove himself as the real God of murder. He's ready to destroy countries in blood and war just for the fun (other would say "for the lulz"). He doesn't care about the consequences of his acts. He just wants to to see the world burn (Joker, anyone ? ^_^), destroying societies, laws, life ... .
He is a Machiavellian schemer only as long as it serves his interests (remember he has 17 intelligence, he wants to gain advantage of everything he can as long as he can, because he's not yet in a strong enough position). When he still needs the advantages he can get by not being discovered by the PC or by his good reputation amongst the nobles / Dukes of the city. He kills without mercy his foster father and followers in Candlekeep when they are no longer useful for him (or when he can make you guilty). He disposes with other people's life at his leisure.
He *is* chaotic evil because he doesn't care at all of the consequences of the decisions across the realms (war, death and destruction across the land) .
On the other hand, Irenicus is Neutral Evil because he looks only for his revenge, whatever the cost is (destruction of suldanesselar, murdering inocents, stealing souls, ...). He doesn't care about ravaging the whole coast and destroying every society, order living around (though he would do so if it served his interests, but he doen't care of the Bhaal blood heritage). He is entirely driven by his selfish interests. He neither want the world and the life to be destroyed, neither does he care of the continuity of order and laws in the current society.
Hmm, both NE and CE are ultimately driven by self-interest, though.
Sarevok is trying to engineer a war that somehow uses all the 'murderous' energy of war to ascend. But it's all sort of muddled. Because Bhaal himself 'sowed his mortal progeny' every whichway across Faerun apparently with the ultimate intention of bringing about the Bhaalspawn wars for the same purpose. As I always understood it, Sarevok grasps this and plans to usurp Bhaal's power for himself, rather than to resurrect Bhaal. He's the first to get the ball (bhaal?) rolling with the Bhaalspawn wars plan that Bhaal himself hoped for.
But anyway, there is definitely a reason and purpose behind why Sarevok is so painstakingly plotting to start a war between Baldur's Gate and Amn. He does it all behind the scenes, too. It's by shrewdness rather than brute force.
I mean, granted an evil genius (or nearly so at Int 17) can be Chaotic Evil too, though. So I can buy that as well.
There is a Chaotic vibe to Sarevok, no doubt. It's just that his MO seems a bit against-type for your garden variety CE leader (eg, more stereotypically such as the chieftain of an orc tribe, etc.)
@entropyxii Neither of the leaders you mentioned was even remotely chaotic, and evil is a matter of perspective/opinion. Tepes was one of the most inanely lawful leaders in history... you crossed his LAWS, and you were forfeit. He allowed Wallachia to survive independently for many years, and he very nearly killed the most powerful man in Europe defending his nation. Either way, modern scholars see him as one who imposes a draconian order. So yeah, I completly disagree with you about Vlad.
As to Ghengis Khan, he is at worst neutral. He followed very strict societal guidelines, which caused some big atrocities when he met rulers that did not obey the bare minimummof diplomacy. You are ignoring the fact that Ghengis wasnt interested in pointless slaughter, but if he sent a diplomat, and you dared harm let alone murder that diplomat... well, lets just civilizations fell. Almost any civilization they met refused to even talk to them, and woe to those that had the gall to send back an emissariesnhead! But remember, he did all of that because it was Mongolian Law. Ironically, today we have the same view, we call it diplomatic immunity. Very much a legal construct.
Sarevok is an example of a LE character that is in the process of becoming the top dog. CE people, other than for CE organizations, do not truly lead, or want to. They will lead a pack in the sense that anyone who stays in said pack must be utterly subserviant, beyond what a LE character requires. Imho, the reason Sarevok looks chaotic is because he sees our level of laws as irrelevant, as tools at use to reach the level of laws that he sees as significant. Thus, he ignores the level of values other humans have, because his order/law is divine.
@DreadKhan I once wrote a paper actually, about Tepes and Khan. You seem to be insisting that Chaotic characters (or Chaotic Evil) characters have never been able to rule? This makes little sense. Someone, earlier in this topic mentioned that Chaotic characters are often the BEST rulers, and this is because they make their own rules.
Genghis Khan followed his own laws, which later became known as Mongolian law. He also slaughtered thousands if not millions (depending on which historical documents you read) of innocent civilians which he could not use to his benefit. Clubbed many of them to death personally it is told. Just because Mongolian society was lawful, did not make Genghis Khan Lawful. You mentioned yourself, that he made his own laws and I can almost certainly guarantee you that he was exempt from all of them.
I will once again state that being chaotic in nature does 'not' make you a raving lunatic unable to survive or excel in any social structure. Such characters either make their own way to the top (unless they were born into it) or leave those social structures which they find so inhibiting. Those who make their way to the top are usually extremely powerful individuals.
Tepes was chaotic evil to the core. I will always remember a famous quote which I will attempt to paraphrase: An ambassador came to visit Vlad, indicating that trade between their two nations would be beneficial. Vlad, on a whim declared to the ambassador that he was going to impale him. As Vlad's guards were taking him away the ambassador spoke "If that is your wish sire, then it must be the right thing to do." Vlad, who was so impressed by the man, then told his guards to stand down and allow the man to eat at his table.
Vlad was a violent ruler. He was impulsive and he liked to press his self-inflating laws on all his people. His punishment for stealing was impalement. He would often leave gold chalices in the city, in the open for all to see. Nobody would touch it.
At first glance this may seem like a lawful character. But Vlad had little respect for his own people, the laws of other countries and the previous laws and punishments of his own country. He would often change multiple laws and punishments for no valid reason than to show off his own power and sadistic nature.
And Sarevok, Neutral Evil? Neutral Evil characters are governed by greed and often have absolutely no problem with serving others as long as there was some form of benefit. Sarevok saw absolutely no benefit in serving others. He sought power as soon as he could, and remember he is the same age as CHARNAME. By 20 years old, his own father was petrified of him. He was charismatic and popular enough that his chaotic nature went almost unnoticed. His intelligence provided tactical knowledge allowing him to swiftly make his way to the top as quickly as he could. Once there he would have created his own laws and seen about a war that would have killed millions. He would have done this, disregarding all previous laws of Baldur's Gate. Sarevok was a rebel, not a mercenary and certainly not any lawful leader who made his way to the top through any form or variation of 'law'.
@Lemernis Cunning, is in no way governed by alignment. Cunning is governed by intelligence. Just because Sarevok made his way to the top intelligently and tactically, does not make him lawful, or even neutral. Many of the documents you find throughout Baldur's Gate convey Sarevok as being unable to control himself on many an occasion and was one of the main reasons people were beginning to fear him.
I really wish they would have changed the alignment descriptions in Baldur's Gate EE. I find it really biased against chaotic characters unless they're the ever-popular 'Chaotic Good'. CN's are not insane madmen, and CE's are not raving psychopathic lunatics more akin to Orc Chiefs. Maybe, just maybe if you lower Sarevok's intelligence to around 6, then you might see something more like the in game descriptions. Right now they just leave people confused.
@entropyxii Neither of the leaders you mentioned was even remotely chaotic, and evil is a matter of perspective/opinion. Tepes was one of the most inanely lawful leaders in history... you crossed his LAWS, and you were forfeit. He allowed Wallachia to survive independently for many years, and he very nearly killed the most powerful man in Europe defending his nation. Either way, modern scholars see him as one who imposes a draconian order. So yeah, I completly disagree with you about Vlad.
Heard a historian talk about Vlad a few days ago. He claimed that Vlad wasnt evil. He just ruled the way he had to because of the time and place he lived in. Whitout the strict laws chaos would break out.
@Sharachan Vlad? the Impaler? not evil? The man was caught practicing impaling rats in his bedroom when he was but a boy - to pass the time it is told.
@DreadKhan , Sarevok follows no law - he just wants power above everything else.
Lawful evil has a personal code of ethics, Sarevok doesn't.
How does Sarevok not follow the code I stated??? He is following/fulfilling dvine prophecy. He believes mortal law is as beneath him as the caste systemms of ants is to a human. What ant cast are you?? Humans are like ants to Sarevok, who views himself as a future god.
@Sharachan He didn't just impale criminals. He impaled anybody he wanted to. From simple ambassadors, to those armies he fought against. Ever heard of the forest of the dead? He impaled thousands and then of course there is the famous wooden engraving of Vlad Tepes himself eating his dinner in the midst of it all. The Roman's crucified but they did not do it without law.
They often crucified rebels, or escaped slaves or those that committed acts of treason. A harsh law yes, but law none the less. Vlad impaled with or without reason.
I believe the burning of heretics was wrought more out of fear than of any evil. Perhaps the leaders in charge may have had sadistic tendencies but for the most part, people went along with it due to fear.
Anyhow this is going severely off-topic and we're no longer discussing law/chaos and Sarevok
''I really wish they would have changed the alignment descriptions in Baldur's Gate EE. I find it really biased against chaotic characters unless they're the ever-popular 'Chaotic Good'. CN's are not insane madmen, and CE's are not raving psychopathic lunatics more akin to Orc Chiefs. Maybe, just maybe if you lower Sarevok's intelligence to around 6, then you might see something more like the in game descriptions. Right now they just leave people confused.''
I seriously don't understand why people hate good guys and have a fascination with bad guys. This is why stories like Kingdom Come exist.
And people like bad guys because they have the best clothes, lines, and looks. I mean, take Edwin: Sweet beard, sweet duds. Or Dorn: Bulging muscles, demonic soul-devouring sword, gruff but somewhat seductive voice.
''I really wish they would have changed the alignment descriptions in Baldur's Gate EE. I find it really biased against chaotic characters unless they're the ever-popular 'Chaotic Good'. CN's are not insane madmen, and CE's are not raving psychopathic lunatics more akin to Orc Chiefs. Maybe, just maybe if you lower Sarevok's intelligence to around 6, then you might see something more like the in game descriptions. Right now they just leave people confused.''
I seriously don't understand why people hate good guys and have a fascination with bad guys. This is why stories like Kingdom Come exist.
I don't hate good guys. In fact my first and favourite PnP character was Lawful Good. What I meant to say was that people always think about chaos when it is anything but good. Chaotic Neutral is chaos, and chaotic evil is chaos, but chaotic good, is good ignoring the chaos. It's just the way they are usually played that bothers me - probably because it is a difficult alignment to RP most people just play them as general good, or because they hate the terms lawful or neutral. Not pointing fingers here, it's just my experience through extensive PnP and RP.
@DreadKhan I once wrote a paper actually, about Tepes and Khan. You seem to be insisting that Chaotic characters (or Chaotic Evil) characters have never been able to rule? This makes little sense. Someone, earlier in this topic mentioned that Chaotic characters are often the BEST rulers, and this is because they make their own rules.
Genghis Khan followed his own laws, which later became known as Mongolian law. He also slaughtered thousands if not millions (depending on which historical documents you read) of innocent civilians which he could not use to his benefit. Clubbed many of them to death personally it is told. Just because Mongolian society was lawful, did not make Genghis Khan Lawful. You mentioned yourself, that he made his own laws and I can almost certainly guarantee you that he was exempt from all of them.
I will once again state that being chaotic in nature does 'not' make you a raving lunatic unable to survive or excel in any social structure. Such characters either make their own way to the top (unless they were born into it) or leave those social structures which they find so inhibiting. Those who make their way to the top are usually extremely powerful individuals.
Tepes was chaotic evil to the core. I will always remember a famous quote which I will attempt to paraphrase: An ambassador came to visit Vlad, indicating that trade between their two nations would be beneficial. Vlad, on a whim declared to the ambassador that he was going to impale him. As Vlad's guards were taking him away the ambassador spoke "If that is your wish sire, then it must be the right thing to do." Vlad, who was so impressed by the man, then told his guards to stand down and allow the man to eat at his table.
Vlad was a violent ruler. He was impulsive and he liked to press his self-inflating laws on all his people. His punishment for stealing was impalement. He would often leave gold chalices in the city, in the open for all to see. Nobody would touch it.
At first glance this may seem like a lawful character. But Vlad had little respect for his own people, the laws of other countries and the previous laws and punishments of his own country. He would often change multiple laws and punishments for no valid reason than to show off his own power and sadistic nature.
And Sarevok, Neutral Evil? Neutral Evil characters are governed by greed and often have absolutely no problem with serving others as long as there was some form of benefit. Sarevok saw absolutely no benefit in serving others. He sought power as soon as he could, and remember he is the same age as CHARNAME. By 20 years old, his own father was petrified of him. He was charismatic and popular enough that his chaotic nature went almost unnoticed. His intelligence provided tactical knowledge allowing him to swiftly make his way to the top as quickly as he could. Once there he would have created his own laws and seen about a war that would have killed millions. He would have done this, disregarding all previous laws of Baldur's Gate. Sarevok was a rebel, not a mercenary and certainly not any lawful leader who made his way to the top through any form or variation of 'law'.
@Lemernis Cunning, is in no way governed by alignment. Cunning is governed by intelligence. Just because Sarevok made his way to the top intelligently and tactically, does not make him lawful, or even neutral. Many of the documents you find throughout Baldur's Gate convey Sarevok as being unable to control himself on many an occasion and was one of the main reasons people were beginning to fear him.
I really wish they would have changed the alignment descriptions in Baldur's Gate EE. I find it really biased against chaotic characters unless they're the ever-popular 'Chaotic Good'. CN's are not insane madmen, and CE's are not raving psychopathic lunatics more akin to Orc Chiefs. Maybe, just maybe if you lower Sarevok's intelligence to around 6, then you might see something more like the in game descriptions. Right now they just leave people confused.
Sorry for the long post!
I do not think I said chaotic evil cannot but rule, but I argue that by definition, chaotic evil doesnt WANT to rule. I have read many scholarly texts on Chingis and Tepes, so I'd hesitate to pull the learning card, unless you have a masters. But I digress! Sarevok sees himself as one beholden to the greater gods, not one bound to mere human law.
Genghis followed socketal traditions, from the very begining. The only excepton I know of is his devotion to his first wife, who was kkdnapped, raped and gave birth to almost certainly another mans child... yet he raised it as his own. THAT is an exception, but was an old Hun tradition to respect diplomats, and Genghis could not endure the social insult of having his emissaries killed off without making an example.
Genghis did not slaughter cities and populations that surendered without a fight, but he wiped out huge swathes of population (hungary!) If they dared resist what he viewed as a superior force, and this was according to his tribal morales. ANY lawful evil ruler sees himself as above most rules, but he holds others to his stanndard anyway, hence EVIL. Lawful evil, if powerful, likes to make laws for others to follow, not for him to follow.
...you must remember that Vlad suffered from an inanely bad press, a press that was the worlds first propaganda? First off the printing press anyways. Tepes ruled with an iron fist to protect his populace, and risked his life fo do it. Evil can still love, just not care for those he doesnt love.
...as to not caring about his people, you know how he died, right? Yep, fighting to defend them from invaders he died. We should pretend he didnt care about people he died defending, since its your view.
Erm, Sarevok definately served both his father and Winski. After he realized he was beholden to a celestial law, he saw human laws as irrelevant to him. Lawful Evil respects laws thats either benefit him, or can be abused by him, or he ignores them to make new laws.
Chaotic evil is pretty inept, due to desperate self-reliance, and the need to dominate 24/7, regardless of precedent or justice.
Cunning is very much affected by alignment... chaotic evil wouldnt use existing laws to his benefit, because he sees laws as stupid. Lawful evil and NE uses them, but chaotic cannot see enough value in laws to use them.
Imho, CE can be described as both self oriented due to chaotic, but also selfishly interested to the point of ignoring the rights of others. Sarevok ignores others rights in the tradition of evil, but only because he sees himself beholden to divine law, vs mortal law.
Edit: erm, i cant believe i made a post that long via tablet. Painfully slow.
@DreadKhan First off well done for typing that on a tablet I give up on my Ipad after 3 sentences. In my opinion intelligence and knowledge isn't governed by a piece of paper you pay 20 grand for from a university. I believe very firmly that there will be many in these forums with neither bachelors or masters but are still incredibly knowledgeable and intelligent. Since you asked: I have a few degrees and a few masters and I currently work as a historical researcher. Not in Vlad or Genghis in particular - i'm more of a specialist in historical social collapse.
You know one of the first things I learned? History/archaeology/anthropology etc are all subjective studies. Many pretend to be objective but the truth is that everybody will have an opposing opinion. Thus, we might as well get back on topic because we could end up debating forever
As you mention that Sarevok makes his own laws... isn't that the point? creating laws does not make you lawful. That in itself is a chaotic trait. Sarevok attempted to disrupt the current laws of the land because those particular laws inhibited him. Altering law, is in itself, chaos. By disrupting the laws of the land and methodically attempting to take rule, was in itself a rebellion.
Also cunning in itself is directed wholly by intelligence, not alignment. If we're going that route however, many incredibly cunning people over the years have been chaotic. Many thieves are chaotic. Cunning is an attribute of intelligence and does not change in relation to alignment.
Comments
Sarevok, is without a doubt Chaotic Evil. I have never seen him as anything else. The way I see it, is that chaotic characters follow their own moral compass, regardless of social constructs. They do what they think is right - even if that 'right' is actually down right evil in the eyes of others.
Sarevok believes himself better than everyone else - above the petty laws and squabbles of the nobility. He used their own laws against them, attempting to very intelligently cause a violent revolution. Revolutionists, by their very nature are chaotic. Just because he used the laws of Baldur's Gate to his advantage did not mean he didn't think them worthless. In fact, his actions actually show complete disregard for the laws of the land - as in most cultures revolutionaries are in fact traitors. As Sarevok is actually incredible intelligent he knew that he could not accomplish what he needed to do by direct force and a more subtle approach must be taken. This may seem like Neutral Evil at first but it is mentioned throughout the game that Sarevok genuinely struggled to abide by the rules set out before him, and the only reason everybody didn't gang up against him was because he was a charismatic individual who managed to gain many allies. His own father was afraid of him.
It is said in many of the FR campaign books that it takes an incredible powerful individual to be able to control chaotic evil characters, and the individual must usually be seen to be aiming for the same goal. This can be seen in Throne of Bhaal. Sarevok follows you because he has no reason not to. He can no longer claim the throne of Bhaal for himself, and thus he now wishes to see the protagonist to the fate in which he missed out. If I remember correctly, he even has a massive go at the protagonist if he/she refuses to take the chance at godhood. He doesn't follow the character because he has to (unless you made him take the geas), he follows the protagonist because he wants to. He doesn't attack the main character like a raving lunatic in revenge, because Sarevok is not a raving lunatic.
In essence, Sarevok does what he wants, when he wants, using whatever means necessary to get it. He certainly knows what he's doing though and won't throw his own life away through stupidity.
He's a person who's just evil to the core. Entirely psychopathic, that's a chaotic evil alignment. Notably, these people often have at least an average intelligence level but if they apply themselves like anyone...
Both very incredibly intelligent, but very impulsive - needing to be in power to accomplish the things they did. Genghis Khan in fact was seen as a tactical powerhouse, easily out witting many of his opponents but often giving in to his ruthless and violent tendencies. Not all psychopaths are stupid. The ones that are stupid get caught or get dead an awful lot quicker.
He's Chaotic, because rules and laws are meaningless to him, if not an outright hindrance. He's Evil because he is solely interested in his own power and has no problem causing untold strife and suffering to accomplish his goals.
Sarevok's alignment is perfect for him - unlike a number of other FR character's i'd rather not name ;P -cough-Drizzt-cough-
I dunno, I'm leaning toward NE, actually.
But he wants to start a bloodshed around the Sword Coast so that he can prove himself as the real God of murder. He's ready to destroy countries in blood and war just for the fun (other would say "for the lulz"). He doesn't care about the consequences of his acts. He just wants to to see the world burn (Joker, anyone ? ^_^), destroying societies, laws, life ... .
He is a Machiavellian schemer only as long as it serves his interests (remember he has 17 intelligence, he wants to gain advantage of everything he can as long as he can, because he's not yet in a strong enough position). When he still needs the advantages he can get by not being discovered by the PC or by his good reputation amongst the nobles / Dukes of the city.
He kills without mercy his foster father and followers in Candlekeep when they are no longer useful for him (or when he can make you guilty). He disposes with other people's life at his leisure.
He *is* chaotic evil because he doesn't care at all of the consequences of the decisions across the realms (war, death and destruction across the land) .
On the other hand, Irenicus is Neutral Evil because he looks only for his revenge, whatever the cost is (destruction of suldanesselar, murdering inocents, stealing souls, ...). He doesn't care about ravaging the whole coast and destroying every society, order living around (though he would do so if it served his interests, but he doen't care of the Bhaal blood heritage).
He is entirely driven by his selfish interests. He neither want the world and the life to be destroyed, neither does he care of the continuity of order and laws in the current society.
I don't know if you already know it, be there is a nice site concerning those discussions :
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticEvil
Sarevok is trying to engineer a war that somehow uses all the 'murderous' energy of war to ascend. But it's all sort of muddled. Because Bhaal himself 'sowed his mortal progeny' every whichway across Faerun apparently with the ultimate intention of bringing about the Bhaalspawn wars for the same purpose. As I always understood it, Sarevok grasps this and plans to usurp Bhaal's power for himself, rather than to resurrect Bhaal. He's the first to get the ball (bhaal?) rolling with the Bhaalspawn wars plan that Bhaal himself hoped for.
But anyway, there is definitely a reason and purpose behind why Sarevok is so painstakingly plotting to start a war between Baldur's Gate and Amn. He does it all behind the scenes, too. It's by shrewdness rather than brute force.
I mean, granted an evil genius (or nearly so at Int 17) can be Chaotic Evil too, though. So I can buy that as well.
There is a Chaotic vibe to Sarevok, no doubt. It's just that his MO seems a bit against-type for your garden variety CE leader (eg, more stereotypically such as the chieftain of an orc tribe, etc.)
I'm not sure why some people don't like tvtropes as a source or reference point, though. I find most of their analyses to be spot-on.
As to Ghengis Khan, he is at worst neutral. He followed very strict societal guidelines, which caused some big atrocities when he met rulers that did not obey the bare minimummof diplomacy. You are ignoring the fact that Ghengis wasnt interested in pointless slaughter, but if he sent a diplomat, and you dared harm let alone murder that diplomat... well, lets just civilizations fell. Almost any civilization they met refused to even talk to them, and woe to those that had the gall to send back an emissariesnhead! But remember, he did all of that because it was Mongolian Law. Ironically, today we have the same view, we call it diplomatic immunity. Very much a legal construct.
Sarevok is an example of a LE character that is in the process of becoming the top dog. CE people, other than for CE organizations, do not truly lead, or want to. They will lead a pack in the sense that anyone who stays in said pack must be utterly subserviant, beyond what a LE character requires. Imho, the reason Sarevok looks chaotic is because he sees our level of laws as irrelevant, as tools at use to reach the level of laws that he sees as significant. Thus, he ignores the level of values other humans have, because his order/law is divine.
Sarevok could be NE, but he isnt chaotic.
Lawful evil has a personal code of ethics, Sarevok doesn't.
Genghis Khan followed his own laws, which later became known as Mongolian law. He also slaughtered thousands if not millions (depending on which historical documents you read) of innocent civilians which he could not use to his benefit. Clubbed many of them to death personally it is told. Just because Mongolian society was lawful, did not make Genghis Khan Lawful. You mentioned yourself, that he made his own laws and I can almost certainly guarantee you that he was exempt from all of them.
I will once again state that being chaotic in nature does 'not' make you a raving lunatic unable to survive or excel in any social structure. Such characters either make their own way to the top (unless they were born into it) or leave those social structures which they find so inhibiting. Those who make their way to the top are usually extremely powerful individuals.
Tepes was chaotic evil to the core. I will always remember a famous quote which I will attempt to paraphrase: An ambassador came to visit Vlad, indicating that trade between their two nations would be beneficial. Vlad, on a whim declared to the ambassador that he was going to impale him. As Vlad's guards were taking him away the ambassador spoke "If that is your wish sire, then it must be the right thing to do." Vlad, who was so impressed by the man, then told his guards to stand down and allow the man to eat at his table.
Vlad was a violent ruler. He was impulsive and he liked to press his self-inflating laws on all his people. His punishment for stealing was impalement. He would often leave gold chalices in the city, in the open for all to see. Nobody would touch it.
At first glance this may seem like a lawful character. But Vlad had little respect for his own people, the laws of other countries and the previous laws and punishments of his own country. He would often change multiple laws and punishments for no valid reason than to show off his own power and sadistic nature.
And Sarevok, Neutral Evil? Neutral Evil characters are governed by greed and often have absolutely no problem with serving others as long as there was some form of benefit. Sarevok saw absolutely no benefit in serving others. He sought power as soon as he could, and remember he is the same age as CHARNAME. By 20 years old, his own father was petrified of him. He was charismatic and popular enough that his chaotic nature went almost unnoticed. His intelligence provided tactical knowledge allowing him to swiftly make his way to the top as quickly as he could. Once there he would have created his own laws and seen about a war that would have killed millions. He would have done this, disregarding all previous laws of Baldur's Gate. Sarevok was a rebel, not a mercenary and certainly not any lawful leader who made his way to the top through any form or variation of 'law'.
@Lemernis Cunning, is in no way governed by alignment. Cunning is governed by intelligence. Just because Sarevok made his way to the top intelligently and tactically, does not make him lawful, or even neutral. Many of the documents you find throughout Baldur's Gate convey Sarevok as being unable to control himself on many an occasion and was one of the main reasons people were beginning to fear him.
I really wish they would have changed the alignment descriptions in Baldur's Gate EE. I find it really biased against chaotic characters unless they're the ever-popular 'Chaotic Good'. CN's are not insane madmen, and CE's are not raving psychopathic lunatics more akin to Orc Chiefs. Maybe, just maybe if you lower Sarevok's intelligence to around 6, then you might see something more like the in game descriptions. Right now they just leave people confused.
Sorry for the long post!
And i agree with the rest you said also.
Does that make all romans evil? Or all priests?
They often crucified rebels, or escaped slaves or those that committed acts of treason. A harsh law yes, but law none the less. Vlad impaled with or without reason.
I believe the burning of heretics was wrought more out of fear than of any evil. Perhaps the leaders in charge may have had sadistic tendencies but for the most part, people went along with it due to fear.
Anyhow this is going severely off-topic and we're no longer discussing law/chaos and Sarevok
I seriously don't understand why people hate good guys and have a fascination with bad guys. This is why stories like Kingdom Come exist.
And people like bad guys because they have the best clothes, lines, and looks. I mean, take Edwin: Sweet beard, sweet duds. Or Dorn: Bulging muscles, demonic soul-devouring sword, gruff but somewhat seductive voice.
Who can beat them? Minsc? Pffft. Maybe Boo.
Genghis followed socketal traditions, from the very begining. The only excepton I know of is his devotion to his first wife, who was kkdnapped, raped and gave birth to almost certainly another mans child... yet he raised it as his own. THAT is an exception, but was an old Hun tradition to respect diplomats, and Genghis could not endure the social insult of having his emissaries killed off without making an example.
Genghis did not slaughter cities and populations that surendered without a fight, but he wiped out huge swathes of population (hungary!) If they dared resist what he viewed as a superior force, and this was according to his tribal morales. ANY lawful evil ruler sees himself as above most rules, but he holds others to his stanndard anyway, hence EVIL. Lawful evil, if powerful, likes to make laws for others to follow, not for him to follow.
...you must remember that Vlad suffered from an inanely bad press, a press that was the worlds first propaganda? First off the printing press anyways. Tepes ruled with an iron fist to protect his populace, and risked his life fo do it. Evil can still love, just not care for those he doesnt love.
...as to not caring about his people, you know how he died, right? Yep, fighting to defend them from invaders he died. We should pretend he didnt care about people he died defending, since its your view.
Erm, Sarevok definately served both his father and Winski. After he realized he was beholden to a celestial law, he saw human laws as irrelevant to him. Lawful Evil respects laws thats either benefit him, or can be abused by him, or he ignores them to make new laws.
Chaotic evil is pretty inept, due to desperate self-reliance, and the need to dominate 24/7, regardless of precedent or justice.
Cunning is very much affected by alignment... chaotic evil wouldnt use existing laws to his benefit, because he sees laws as stupid. Lawful evil and NE uses them, but chaotic cannot see enough value in laws to use them.
Imho, CE can be described as both self oriented due to chaotic, but also selfishly interested to the point of ignoring the rights of others. Sarevok ignores others rights in the tradition of evil, but only because he sees himself beholden to divine law, vs mortal law.
Edit: erm, i cant believe i made a post that long via tablet. Painfully slow.
You know one of the first things I learned? History/archaeology/anthropology etc are all subjective studies. Many pretend to be objective but the truth is that everybody will have an opposing opinion. Thus, we might as well get back on topic because we could end up debating forever
As you mention that Sarevok makes his own laws... isn't that the point? creating laws does not make you lawful. That in itself is a chaotic trait. Sarevok attempted to disrupt the current laws of the land because those particular laws inhibited him. Altering law, is in itself, chaos. By disrupting the laws of the land and methodically attempting to take rule, was in itself a rebellion.
Also cunning in itself is directed wholly by intelligence, not alignment. If we're going that route however, many incredibly cunning people over the years have been chaotic. Many thieves are chaotic. Cunning is an attribute of intelligence and does not change in relation to alignment.