Is Sarevok really Chaotic Evil?
ShapiroKeatsDarkMage
Member Posts: 2,428
I think he's too calm and calculating to be Chaotic.
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Yep, it sure sounds like Sarevok.
"Chaotic evil is the most dangerous alignment because it represents the destruction not only of beauty and life but also of the order on which beauty and life depend."
Uhum. Starting a war in order to obtain death on a massive scale seems chaotic evil enough ...
He was calculating yes. But he was also willing to break rules, use subterfuge and eliminate anyone who stood in his way to Godhood.
Lastly he was a leader. If you check the worthies of the Forgotten Realm, most are Chaotic BECAUSE THEY HAVE THE POWER TO MAKE THE RULES AS THEY GO. Which is completely different to following them.
Most Lawful aligned people are followers. They either follow rules set by others or follow the orders of others.
Think about it.
I would think it's a matter of LE being more patient and conservative (and probably more calculating). Though, maybe "Audentes Fortuna iuvat" (though, maybe it should be Tymora
I think he's definitely CE. Just not a blundering one with no intelligence, a stereotype that is hard to shake sometimes with the poor alignment descriptions in the game.
However Chaotic people can ignore all this and go straight for the top... They do something radical that the lawful end up needing to take action, either by incorporating the new ideas into the system (usually elevating the chaotic person) destroying the chaotic aggravation to the system or ignoring it as if nothing has happened...
So Saveoursock is clearly Chaotic (and evil as he was going to kill lots of innocents...)
even some npc mentions sometime that 'while his mind is amazingly tactical he has little patience for subtlety'
the thief outside Candlekeep i think
also his complete disregard of authority within his family and the Iron Throne along with the way he views his minions as disposable and the fact that he doesn't give a damn about the city of which he would be appointed Grand Duke mark him as Chaotic Evil, only a chaotic character would seize a position of power only to start a war,anyone else would establish his order,would reform the city to his vision
also aiming straight to godhood like this is also a chaotic goal by itself
I think of myself as a... vapid cloud, floating high...
I think my first attempt needs more work...
Plus, he intends to use the "law" of governments to set them against each other and cause their collapse.
Hmmm, what would be the shades of difference between high-INT lawful evil and high-INT chaotic evil?
I think that many of us, myself included, may be having trouble seperating out lawful evil and chaotic evil from "stupid evil", "lawful stupid", and "chaotic stupid".
Perhaps, when high INT is brought into the picture, we need to get rid of all the "stupids", and to then contemplate what truly separates intelligent lawful evil from intelligent chaotic evil.
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticStupid
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ChaoticEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NeutralEvil
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/LawfulStupid
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/StupidGood
Hmm, on studying the tvtropes definition of Lawful Evil, I guess that maybe Sarevok is indeed chaotic evil with high INT, and I have been confusing INT with the chaotic/lawful axis. Sarevok does not in fact believe that order is an end goal, or that establishing himself as a tyrant ruler is an end goal. He is doing these things because he is damn SMART, and thus, he has decided that working through the "law" is the best "tool" that he has at his disposal to instigate "CHAOS".
Compare and contrast Darth Vader and Palpatine. (EDIT: and also, Dr. Victor von Doom from the Marvel universe.) They want ORDER in the galaxy, (or on Earth), with themselves in charge. They believe that they are doing right, and that the balance sheet of their efforts will lead to the least suffering and death. Unfortunately for Alderaan (or Earth), they are so certain of their rightness, that in their figuring, the destruction of every life on on Alderaan (or Earth) is still counterbalanced by ensuring their CONTROL.
Machiavelli would be the classical example of lawful evil.
On reflection, Sarevok indeed does not fit the paradigm of lawful evil. He WANTS to cause death, destruction, and mayhem, and he takes joy in doing so.
Interesting. Upon spending some time studying these definitions of "chaotic evil, neutral evil, and lawful evil", I think the best alignment for Sarevok would actually be "neutral evil", otherwise known as "pure evil". He is not impulsive in any way, and couldn't care less about freedom vs. tyranny. He will use lawful systems of government when it suits his goal of immortality and omnipotence, and will sew chaos just as easily. So, I think that he's a very, very intelligent neutral evil.
The neutral evil character has restraint when it benefits them. Chaotic evil characters have a hard time with this.
At least that's what I've gathered.
Take, for example, his ToB behavior. He does not rail at you in a temper tantrum for his death at your hands. He calmly, coldy, and with great calculation, tries to convince you that he has learned from his mistakes, and that you can now trust him to serve your cause if you re-rez him.
He will then, in fact, "serve" you to the very end, and even fight against Melissan with you. The thing I don't know and have never seen is his ToB epilogue. Because, I would expect him to try to kill you at the very moment you defeat Melissan, so that he can take the Throne of Bhaal for himself, as he has always believed is his rightful place.
(I don't care - could someone please "spoil" this discussion with knowledge of Sarevok's ToB epilogue, when carried to the end in your party?)
None of his in-game behaviors strike me as truly "chaotic". (My freedom to do as I please, everyone else be damned.) Rather, he still seems much more "pure (neutral) evil" to me, in that he wants immmortality, omnipotence, and a divine portfolio, and will use any means necessary to get it.
If "lawful" means following a code, either external or internal, then he's not that. If "chaotic" means "my freedom and my whims above all", then, he's not that, either.
Neutral evil is still sounding like the best alignment description for him at this point in the discussion.
As a useful corollary, does anyone know offhand what the alignment labels are for Irenicus, Bodhi, Melissan, and the Five?
A neutral evil person is pure selfish, he thinks of himself first, sees others as weak and tools to be used. Eldoth is neutral evil as he cons rich ladies, plays with their feelings and takes advantage of their wealth. He won't, however, go on a killing spree, he does not wish to cause mayhem and destruction just for the sake of it. Chaotic evil is a little more blood thirsty, and prone to anger and needless violence. Xzar and Tiax are chaotic evil, Xzar can kill and dissect an innocent person just for fun. Tiax can kill someone horribly if he is mocked. Well, both are insane, but Shar-teel is chaotic evil too, she can gut a man easily if the whim strikes and she takes offence to the unsuspecting man's demeanor. She'll then spit on his corpse and walk away merrily, for 'she loves violence'
Viconia is neutral evil. She is selfish and thinks of herself first, trusts and loves no one other than herself, snd thinks of most other people as weak, pathetic fools. She enjoys belittling others and toying with them. (she taunts Aerie and Minsc a lot) Yet she is no serial killer or homicidial maniac. She says she only tries to make her way without molestation in BG2. She can steal and take advantage of an innocent, and when offended greatly she will be unforgiving and brutal, as she talks about her dealings with a farmer family in her romance in Bg2. Yet she will not go out of her way to cause pain and suffering to others if there is no gain or point to it. She had refused to sacrifice a baby to Lloth, she had thought there was no point to it, and that had caused her fall from grace, because killing a baby was the drow norm, a chaotic evil act.
I am a being capable of a thousand thoughts and a thousand deeds. And so is Saveoursock.
Why be so quick to judge?
Should we not just live and let live?
Or in the case of Bhaalspawn, Kill and Kill some more?
We are all part of the circle that is life and we are all different. We need 7 billion alignments, a different one for all of us on the planet. The nine that we are given are just not enough to encompass the human experience.
...
Anduin (Chaotic Good)
Myself, I get Neutral Good on tests, with Chaotic tendencies. A friend got Chaotic Evil, leaning towards Neutral Evil. A character that he played, of similar alignment, did things for his benefit, and only for his own. My Chaotic Evil guy was just played like the Kurgan.
These abstractions do tend to complicate things...even my preferred Law-Neutrality-Chaos system. In many examples, most people are Neutral, with truly Lawful and truly Chaotic people being exceptionally rare. Sarevok would definitely be Chaotic under those rules...
Here, have some fun: http://easydamus.com/alignment.html .
In the years following his resurrection by , Sarevok never
settled in any one place for long. In Berdusk he is said to have routed
an army of invading orcs, displaying such fearsome power and rage
that terrified locals weren't sure whom to fear more. In Westgate he arrived
as conqueror, brutally enforcing his will only to mysteriously vanish
months later. He acted like a man that did not know himself, and
all the stories agreed that Sarevok was a tortured soul, balancing
between life and death, never to achieve either. Eventually he disappeared,
said to have assaulted the Abyss itself, or even taken his own life.
In truth, he journeyed to Kara-Tur to bury his one true love,
the warrior Tamoko. He never returned, though the stories endure.
Irenicus was Neutral Evil I believe, Bodhi Chaotic Evil (which suits them well, I believe).
I don't know the alignments of the Five, other than Balthazar being Lawful Good (the Good part being in question considering his treatment of the townsfolk, in my opinion).
Chaotic Evil suits Sarevok well as far as I'm concerned. It's the difference between a tyrannical despot and an orc chieftan. Sarevok cares only about his own individual power, and damned are those below him. He'll murder, crush and break everyone in his way if he has to, though his plan requires him to lay low for the largest part, and work through minions.
His personal execution of the knight in the intro and his attempt on your life (murdering Gorion in the process) show his Chaotic nature; very willing to get his hands dirty and murdering with great pleasure. Even his rise to power doesn't come lawfully; he has everyone above him murdered.
He is a very good example of a high intelligence Chaotic Evil character.
The Throne of Bhaal version is...a little neutered in my opinion. He doesn't seem particularly evil (especially compared to his original BG mass murdering self) and considering you can turn him Chaotic Good by talking to him a few times, he probably lost some of his insane rage when the spark of Bhaal lost him, turning more into the man Tamoko believed him to be.
He wouldn't betray Charname at the last moment because A) Charname is more powerful than him at that moment,
I would say that Palpatine is Chaotic Evil because he only wants power and use fallacy and deception to keep it. He has the greed for power and destruction for all who opposes him.
On the other side Darth Vader is Lawful Evil because he agreed to pledge himself to Palpatine's power (though he more or less accepted (more ore less) reluctantly that he had to obey Palpatine to acheive his goals.
In the comics, I think Spiderman's foe Venom is lawful evil, he is wicked, nasty, ruthless and depraved but has a code and rules he obeys, and does not want innocents to be hurt. Those that he sees as 'innocent' in his warped mind, anyway, he has personal rules and a very strict agenda of getting his revenge from Spidey. His offspring Carnage is on the othr hand, pure chaotic evil. He kills and slaughters everyone he can reach for the sheer fun of it. No rules, no explanations, no important agenda. Just carnage.
his little patience for subtlety (ok maybe the last word was different,but the rest is as i wrote for sure) comment was to justify why he just used Koveras as a name,besides the dopplegangers were the most efficient way to seize power,if he tried to by brute force he would be stupidly evil and nothing else
chaotic characters can scheme as well if nothing flashy would work
An intelligent Chaotic Evil enemy would be like Sarevok. Cause hundreds of problems that cause multiple deaths, step in and take over, start a war, cause more death.
An intelligent Lawful Evil enemy would use the current problems and would swiftly rise up through the ranks while gaining the support of the populace.