Well, seeing how my rather lacking skills at debate do not let me to bring up any actual examples, I suppose you are right. But at least the same is true of you, meaning you can keep your negative thinking all for yourself, thank you very much.
I have to agree with @ZelgadisGW I don't see humanity improving. We still commit the same atrocities we have always done we just have better technology now. The slight environmental conscience being shown is more a consequence of knowledge advancement than any proof that humans are becoming a mature race.
Actually if i had to classify our behavior as a species I would say we're immature, childish and unable to plan anything in advancement.
Seriously we have many social problems all over the world that could be solved in 30 to 50 years IF we just could think that far ahead...
We could solve pretty much every problem in the world if we all just managed to stop being such selfish jerks to one another. Especially the 1% with all the money.
I'd say a good start would be catching up some of the richest people on the planet with HIV and several other (so far) incurable diseases. I'm sure a few great cures would flood the market soon afterwards, the funding for these matters having skyrocketed. Now if only we could somehow convince them to get off the planet and move to Mars, sparking huge developments in space technology and terraforming...?
But with all that said, I still think we're doing better. Maybe we are still the same jerks we have always been, but at least we know a lot more about the world and the universe surrounding us. We know that washing hands is important to prevent infections, how to keep in touch with the whole world almost real-time, and that starting to think about our enviroment might be a pretty good thing before we end up killing ourselves. Now all that's left is to relay this information to everyone and make them listen.
We may be avaricious morons with no selfless thought in our petty heads, but we're slowly getting better anyway.
Hence I often like animals more than humans. You don't see them [animals] killing other species for goddamn profit. Only humans do that.
I don't see humans (especially in the west) killing each other for profit. Those who make profits need to have markets and so need to have many people alive and consuming. The human on human killing I see in the world is coming from hatred, envy or from fanatical beliefs.
But I do see humans still killing animals for profit. But hopefully that may be changing, albeit not soon enough. I remember years ago that animals were just considered inferior creatures without reason, and so their lives were not considered worth anything. After living with some for awhile you get to realize that there is a real person with real love there, and the only reason they can't speak basic thoughts is because they don't have the vocal apparatus to do so. But their feelings and thoughts do get through to you.
You don't see humans in the West indirectly killing for profit? You don't see huge corporations that primarily the West uses, which exploits people who barely have access to basic water and shelter, if that?
You didn't see the invasions of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan? We profited, if not financially. There are more ways to "profit" than monetarily. And even then, you have 3 huge oil/opiate production countries on the planet there, which have only degraded in quality of life since we invaded.
I am of the full belief that animals are fully sentient, even if they struggle with certain metaphysical concepts (and mirrors :P). What we have to remember is that humans have (mostly) "beaten" nature. Sure, we have the odd natural disaster, but we don't struggle in a life-or-death battle every day. Most of us don't have to hunt for food or struggle to find shelter. Animals, especially those within complex food chains such as Lions of Dolphins, have evolved in a way that allows them to survive. It's basic Darwinism (if you accept evolution as a plausible theory, I am aware some people do not).
For example, a Dolphin may have sharks or orcas as predators, who eat tortoise. The dolphins who evolved the behaviour to kill tortoise would benefit from a reduced shark population in their area and therefore be safer and survive, passing on this behaviour and making it more common within the dolphin population. That's what it comes down to: survival. The same is true with the cat example. Sure, an old cat might already know a mouse inside out (literally!) but on the off chance that it has discovered a different species or a different creature which just LOOKS like a mouse, it would want to explore every single option. Why? Because carelessness costs lives in the animal kingdom.
What if this cat had only ever eaten small spiders and played with them? Then it finds another small spider, doesn't bother playing with it first and BAM... venomous sting inside your mouth.
The problem for me is that humans do cruel, cruel things without any imaginable need for survival. But then saying that, I am currently writing a paper on "Why we invaded Libya" and it involves a dolphin-tortoise style mechanic where we "Liberated Libya" (killing Gaddafi) because he wanted to unite Africa as one nation. Something which would create another apex predator in world politics. Food for thought.
From a mass survival point, makes sense. A Predator A wouldn't let a baby Predator B live, simply because in several years it would be competing for food sources. Less competition = more survivability. Same with humans and particularly nations/countries.
I am of the full belief that animals are fully sentient, even if they struggle with certain metaphysical concepts (and mirrors :P).
Is there actually debate as to whether or not animals are sentient?
Also, when I talked about a cat playing with its prey, I didn't mean playing with it before it ate it. I meant that the cat I used to have would kill something, poke at it for a bit, and then leave.
We could solve pretty much every problem in the world if we all just managed to stop being such selfish jerks to one another. Especially the 1% with all the money.
I'd say a good start would be catching up some of the richest people on the planet with HIV and several other (so far) incurable diseases. I'm sure a few great cures would flood the market soon afterwards, the funding for these matters having skyrocketed. Now if only we could somehow convince them to get off the planet and move to Mars, sparking huge developments in space technology and terraforming...?
But with all that said, I still think we're doing better. Maybe we are still the same jerks we have always been, but at least we know a lot more about the world and the universe surrounding us. We know that washing hands is important to prevent infections, how to keep in touch with the whole world almost real-time, and that starting to think about our enviroment might be a pretty good thing before we end up killing ourselves. Now all that's left is to relay this information to everyone and make them listen.
We may be avaricious morons with no selfless thought in our petty heads, but we're slowly getting better anyway.
I don't think that 1% is actually the problem. It's mainly the government not being able to perform well enough in most cases. Take my country, for example. Mass immigration's still allowed here, which results in either less jobs for native young people, and/or just an increase in jobless people living off social security without moving an inch themselves. I only support people who work for their money, not those that just profit. Those rich people you mentioned earlier also worked their way to the top at some point. In some sense, they deserve their wealth. Now don't take this as an offense, but why, for example, should my father (not one of the richest people out there, but still earns enough to provide for us well enough) pay taxes for jobless immigrants, who migrated just because their own government couldn't handle things well enough in their own country? I understand the point of helping these people, yet it's somehow still unfair. Each person has to work for their own money, not live on the pay of another. Thus I'm all for governments creating more job opportunities, but I'm also for a more severe handling of immigration. Just a side thought.
What I was trying to say is: I support immigrants. I support different cultures. But everyone has to work for their own bread and take at least a BIT of effort to integrate. Most immigrants up to today still lack a proper understanding of my country's mother tongue. Or certain traditions from their side get forced onto us. Example: my sister, who goes to a catholic school, didn't even have an Easter mass in the school's nearby church. Because you know what? About 2/3 of the kids are from a different religion by now. It would thus have been 'inappropriate'. Bull, is what I say to that. It's a catholic school, kids from other religions should either accept that and adapt (like wearing no burka's during classes) or go to a public school. Sorry, but it's been annoying me for a while. When I still was at that school, we had an Easter mass every year. We also prayed before having lunch. It seems those things have lost their value nowadays. Same goes for the debate around what people with a public job have to wear during their job. Such a person has to represent neutrality and thus has to wear neutral clothes. So, no skinheads, burka's or catholic crosses. But I'm going off-topic too much.
It's a difficult issue. People will always do idiotic things because of one or the other fairytale they believe in. That's the sad thing about humanity.
@Chow: Well said. I agree. Nowadays only money speaks in our world. All just money money money. And it does more harm than good, as this topic has shown. Poor rhinos. They may not be my favourite animals, they're still a mighty and interesting species of their own.
Poaching so easily becomes genocide, and that should never be tolerated.
Actually poaching can never become genocide, as by definition genocide refers to wiping out a population based on ethnicity, religion, nationality, etc., not based on species.
What I was trying to say is: I support immigrants. I support different cultures. But everyone has to work for their own bread and take at least a BIT of effort to integrate. Most immigrants up to today still lack a proper understanding of my country's mother tongue. Or certain traditions from their side get forced onto us. Example: my sister, who goes to a catholic school, didn't even have an Easter mass in the school's nearby church. Because you know what? About 2/3 of the kids are from a different religion by now. It would thus have been 'inappropriate'. Bull, is what I say to that. It's a catholic school, kids from other religions should either accept that and adapt (like wearing no burka's during classes) or go to a public school. Sorry, but it's been annoying me for a while. When I still was at that school, we had an Easter mass every year. We also prayed before having lunch. It seems those things have lost their value nowadays. Same goes for the debate around what people with a public job have to wear during their job. Such a person has to represent neutrality and thus has to wear neutral clothes. So, no skinheads, burka's or catholic crosses. But I'm going off-topic too much.
Yes you were going a little off topic and you did post this weeks ago, but I'm going to respond anyways for some strange reason... (but to keep the topic generally on topic I'll hide that portion under a spoiler thing).
I don't know where you live, but in Ontario, Canada (where I live) there are two publicly funded school systems. Catholics (due to stupid constitutional requirements) and a secular public school system. Anyways, I live in a big province (and a big country) so there are some cases where within my province Catholic schools are going to be the only available public school for people (especially in areas with declining populations). So it makes sense that in a situation where 2/3 of the kids were of a different religion they wouldn't have an Easter mass. Yes its political correctness, but as long as its a situation where it is a school receiving public funding (which is clearly not the case in your example) that is how it should be (at least in my opinion). In addition in the case of a privately run school it could simply be a matter of needing those students and their parents money (idk if vouchers are involved), so accommodations have to be made. With regard to public workers, while I can see a case against allowing burka's, if people want to wear kirpans, Niqabs, crosses, etc I'm alright with it. As long as it doesn't interfere with people actually doing their job and people can actually still take them seriously I really don't generally care what people are wearing.
But as for the topic at hand what can I say? Part of this is always going to be an issue because of the economic benefit of hunting Rhinos, and part of it is the culture of the people who actually want the Rhino tusks. Its like Shark finning and harvesting bear bile. Its something the Chinese as a people have to address as a culture (and thats not to say we are particularly humane with animals in the west either).
and thats not to say we are particularly humane with animals in the west either).
Indeed. Both west and east do hideous stuff to animals because it is mostly done indoors (therefore people won't see it happening) , approved by the government... and it's even worse that some people find it convenient.
@DJKajuru: Yeah, what gets me down most is how chickens are mass-produced and mass-slaughtered in slaughter houses nowadays. They are caged in a gcage that's far too small for them, and have to eat and lay eggs non-stop. I think that just is horrendous. That is mainly also why I've come to dislike eating chicken meat. It also just isn't tasty. I support farms where chickens can run around far more. At least they still have a bit of freedom and a nice life then. Another terrible thing I read some time ago, was how 'foie gras' is made. Foie gras is basically very fat duck or goose liver, and is considered French 'haute cuisine', a culinary treat. But once I read how geese literally are strapped down and force-fed food till their stomach and liver literally HAVE to expand, I was filled with disgust. We humans are weird, to label such dirty low practices as 'haute cuisine'...
I know that this topic was specially about Rhinos, but you know, most of the stuff in your neighbourhood could come from animal exploitation :
-cosmetics tested on animals (they have them drink it, spray is on their eyes, inject it... the victims are all kinds of mammals, from monkeys to dogs and cats)
- the way cattle , pork and hen are treated in slaughterhouses ( they don't grow up happily till their death. The grow up in cages , most of them are tortured , it is actually like a concentration camp for animals)
- Fur trade . Media shows it as a luxury , but animals are still flayed alive .
Always look for products that aren't tested on animals, avoid food that comes from unknown or cruel sources and obviusly, don't wear fur.
I find this hard to believe. What reason could they have for skinning the animal while it's alive?
In China they do it because of the superstition. They believe that the animal's pain gives special benefits to the fur, or something like that.
I can't say about Europe or the States, but considering all the other bad stuff we're doing, I would not put it past them to have found some weird excuse of their own.
@TJ_Hooker: I think you're not fully aware of the cruelty humanity is capable of. Just look at my 'foie gras', or goose liver example described above. Or chickens mass-bred and mass-slaughtered in factories. Sometimes humans are more cruel than animals themselves.
@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud Actually, I think that people are more cruel than animals. This example of yours - we breed animals for mass slaughter in very horryfing conditions, even thought we have mean to do so [reproduce animals for consumtion purposes] in a lot more humane way. But for homo sapiens sapiens money is having much more worth than pain of "lesser" creatures. That how it was, it is, and it will be. It's sad.
@TJ_Hooker: I think you're not fully aware of the cruelty humanity is capable of. Just look at my 'foie gras', or goose liver example described above. Or chickens mass-bred and mass-slaughtered in factories. Sometimes humans are more cruel than animals themselves.
I realize that people are capable of doing terrible things to animals, but it seems like it's usually done for a "reason", even if that reason is a terrible one. In the example of foie gras, the treatment isn't done just to torture the goose, it's done to make a certain kind of food that people like (again, not saying this is a good reason). That's what made me dubious about skinning animals while alive; I just couldn't think of any reason why someone would do so.
@TJ_Hooker , they skin them alive because it is easier to remove it while their blood keeps flowing. It's disgusting that certain celebrities show it as "glamorous".
Just imagine your own skin getting strapped from your bones... Guh, it's too horrible to even think about... Poor poor animals indeed. Whenever I buy a coat with a fur cap on it in a shop, I always look at the label to make sure the fur is synthetic and not real... I got a cat at home, couldn't imagine it being its fur hanging on my coat... *shivers*
Comments
Actually if i had to classify our behavior as a species I would say we're immature, childish and unable to plan anything in advancement.
Seriously we have many social problems all over the world that could be solved in 30 to 50 years IF we just could think that far ahead...
I'd say a good start would be catching up some of the richest people on the planet with HIV and several other (so far) incurable diseases. I'm sure a few great cures would flood the market soon afterwards, the funding for these matters having skyrocketed. Now if only we could somehow convince them to get off the planet and move to Mars, sparking huge developments in space technology and terraforming...?
But with all that said, I still think we're doing better. Maybe we are still the same jerks we have always been, but at least we know a lot more about the world and the universe surrounding us. We know that washing hands is important to prevent infections, how to keep in touch with the whole world almost real-time, and that starting to think about our enviroment might be a pretty good thing before we end up killing ourselves. Now all that's left is to relay this information to everyone and make them listen.
We may be avaricious morons with no selfless thought in our petty heads, but we're slowly getting better anyway.
You didn't see the invasions of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan? We profited, if not financially. There are more ways to "profit" than monetarily. And even then, you have 3 huge oil/opiate production countries on the planet there, which have only degraded in quality of life since we invaded.
I am of the full belief that animals are fully sentient, even if they struggle with certain metaphysical concepts (and mirrors :P). What we have to remember is that humans have (mostly) "beaten" nature. Sure, we have the odd natural disaster, but we don't struggle in a life-or-death battle every day. Most of us don't have to hunt for food or struggle to find shelter. Animals, especially those within complex food chains such as Lions of Dolphins, have evolved in a way that allows them to survive. It's basic Darwinism (if you accept evolution as a plausible theory, I am aware some people do not).
For example, a Dolphin may have sharks or orcas as predators, who eat tortoise. The dolphins who evolved the behaviour to kill tortoise would benefit from a reduced shark population in their area and therefore be safer and survive, passing on this behaviour and making it more common within the dolphin population. That's what it comes down to: survival. The same is true with the cat example. Sure, an old cat might already know a mouse inside out (literally!) but on the off chance that it has discovered a different species or a different creature which just LOOKS like a mouse, it would want to explore every single option. Why? Because carelessness costs lives in the animal kingdom.
What if this cat had only ever eaten small spiders and played with them? Then it finds another small spider, doesn't bother playing with it first and BAM... venomous sting inside your mouth.
The problem for me is that humans do cruel, cruel things without any imaginable need for survival. But then saying that, I am currently writing a paper on "Why we invaded Libya" and it involves a dolphin-tortoise style mechanic where we "Liberated Libya" (killing Gaddafi) because he wanted to unite Africa as one nation. Something which would create another apex predator in world politics. Food for thought.
From a mass survival point, makes sense. A Predator A wouldn't let a baby Predator B live, simply because in several years it would be competing for food sources. Less competition = more survivability. Same with humans and particularly nations/countries.
EDIT: Edited typo's, mistakes, etc.
Also, when I talked about a cat playing with its prey, I didn't mean playing with it before it ate it. I meant that the cat I used to have would kill something, poke at it for a bit, and then leave.
Poaching so easily becomes genocide, and that should never be tolerated.
But as for the topic at hand what can I say? Part of this is always going to be an issue because of the economic benefit of hunting Rhinos, and part of it is the culture of the people who actually want the Rhino tusks. Its like Shark finning and harvesting bear bile. Its something the Chinese as a people have to address as a culture (and thats not to say we are particularly humane with animals in the west either).
Drones are now being used to prevent poaching. Not the big predator drones mind you, just little ones.
-cosmetics tested on animals (they have them drink it, spray is on their eyes, inject it... the victims are all kinds of mammals, from monkeys to dogs and cats)
- the way cattle , pork and hen are treated in slaughterhouses ( they don't grow up happily till their death. The grow up in cages , most of them are tortured , it is actually like a concentration camp for animals)
- Fur trade . Media shows it as a luxury , but animals are still flayed alive .
Always look for products that aren't tested on animals, avoid food that comes from unknown or cruel sources and obviusly, don't wear fur.
I can't say about Europe or the States, but considering all the other bad stuff we're doing, I would not put it past them to have found some weird excuse of their own.
Actually, I think that people are more cruel than animals. This example of yours - we breed animals for mass slaughter in very horryfing conditions, even thought we have mean to do so [reproduce animals for consumtion purposes] in a lot more humane way. But for homo sapiens sapiens money is having much more worth than pain of "lesser" creatures. That how it was, it is, and it will be. It's sad.