@oddbjorn, I know, and I understand that. The full specifications for the original game can be found here. However, what you need to remember is that we're not talking about the original game. Differences in rendering and such means that it cannot play on those original specifications, believe me I've tried, much in the same way that the engine has trouble running on even a dual core machine (e.g. my laptop, at about 6 FPS) with 128MB integrated graphics.
It's down to software, obviously, but that software has to be programmed with a specific type of hardware in mind - which ultimately comes down to the hardware that they want to develop for and what it can handle. You can make all the improvements to the software that you want, and it will run on my gaming/development desktop just fine.
But the target cannot possibly be my gaming desktop, not when dealing with mobile devices. So the software must be developed specifically with that restriction in mind, and they are dealing with it. Part of dealing with it means trying to optimise it for both Android and iPad together, I assume (I'm not privvy to their internal workings, so I'm guessing on what they're optimising for). After all, what's the point in optimising it for iPad, then going to work on the Android only to find that the iPad optimisations just aren't going to cut it for Android. The iPad 4 ARM chips are more powerful than many (can't say all since I don't really follow it like I do with desktops) of the Android based device ARM chips. Meaning that if they can optimise it for a lower specification device (like I said: hardware), it should then work fine on the iPad.
This is not an issue of the iPads ability to load a high resolution map and zoom - it's doing that just fine. I have a very smooth experience outside spell effects.
There is nothing new in the game that would require a computer with your specs. Compare the effects in Bastion for example or numerous other games wi extensive graphics with this game. BG:EE is far from the most graphically complex game I have. The very fact that it takes a powerful righ such as yours proves that the fault is in the coding.
The situation with integrated graphics on PC can be more easily explained away but Overhaul released it on the iPad and it is a closed platform . This is a dishonest business practice and the community has been far too patient and protective.
I should have the right to a refund and Overhaul should man up to their responsibility and pay me and stop hiding behind Apple.
@oddbjorn, you're taking what I said out of context. It doesn't 'require' a PC with my specifications to run well, as I'm sure many people can attest to. I merely stated that you could make any amount of improvements and it would run well on my machine - which, in turn, means that they need to not focus on something like my machine. Since they weren't aiming at that sort of specification from the beginning, that's a non-issue. Also, Checkers, which is installed as standard on a Windows computer, and is 2D, will barely even work on my laptop (runs at around 7-10FPS), so this game being 2D really doesn't mean a lot in that regard.
What they're trying to do right now is aim for the lowest specification of the current devices, the Android devices, so that optimisations from there can be spread to other platforms while also getting it sorted for the eventual release, at least that is my assumption - I, like most gamers, am not briefed on their priorities, so I can only guess.
Which was my explanation regarding hardware, and why they're probably aiming for Android instead of focusing all their efforts purely on the iPad.
As for Overhaul 'manning up,' I can only repeat what they've said about Apple's business practice regarding refunds. It's the same as the Steam version in that sense, which is to say that it's not entirely up to them to give a refund - from what I understand, they've been very good in giving refunds to people who have purchased the game through the Beamdog site, so I'd wager it's more to do with Apple in this case. That's not to say they are hiding behind them.
I can understand that patience is wearing thin, but you know what they say: good things come to those who wait .
Yeah ok so we both agree it is a coding problem and that its taken them 5 months to adress the issue. I'm not sure what we're arguing about anymore. Any sane person would feel scammed. I'm sorry you don't.
I'm going to sell a car to Trent that can't go over 20mph and when he complains I will claim that the purchase in unrefundable and refuse to fix it for 6 months and see how he feels. I wonder if he would sue me.
When we say that we don't have the ability to refund iPad purchases, it's not because we're trying to scam you or get out of giving you your money back. It's because we literally don't have the ability to issue refunds for AppStore purchases. If we could, believe me, we would (ask anyone who's received a refund for a Beamdog.com purchase).
I'm sorry you're disappointed with the iPad version, and we do have some improvements coming to that platform very soon. If you have other concerns, you can direct them to support@baldursgate.com and I'll address them personally.
FWIW, I have a 3rd-gen ipad. I've seen the slowdown from entangle and web.
It HARDLY makes the game unplayable. That's a bit of a histrionic response. At worst it makes combat involving those particular spells slow. Move your viewport off the center of the spell and things get back almost to full speed.
Yeah, it's an unfortunate issue, but I've been playing two characters on iOS BG1 since the day it was released and even with the initial GUI issues, the current slowdown issue, and some other minor nits, I still find the iPad experience much more pleasing than playing on PC/Mac!
Personally my biggest gripe with the iPad version is downloading multiple gigabytes every time there is a patch! Can't the data portion be separated from the app portion? I'm pretty sure other games on iOS allow the content to be downloaded separately from the Core Game. Crazy idea--BG1 core as a free DLC?? The retina iPad doesn't have the full highres UI graphics, does it? Highres UI DLC?
I'm going to sell a car to Trent that can't go over 20mph and when he complains I will claim that the purchase in unrefundable and refuse to fix it for 6 months and see how he feels. I wonder if he would sue me.
Man, are you being deliberately obtuse, or what? Multiple people have told you that Beamdog (Trent) CAN'T refund an App Store purchase. You actually even mentioned Apple's refund policy? So why do continue to complain that Beamdog won't refund you? You're just asking for Beamdog to give you a free video game. That's hardly fair...
Apple's policy is what you should really be complaining about!
Second, Beamdog has repeatedly said they are working on rendering improvements. The rendering issues relate specially to OpenGL, a technology which was not present in the original. Your Celeron computer back in 1999 never had a 2048x1536 screen either--more like 640x480. That's a lot of upscaling and a lot more pixels to push. Beamdog has never "refused" to work on any improvement. They've added a lot of new content, features, and improvements every fix.
They sure CAN keep the profits from the AppStore though! Funny how that worked out! How about you give me my refund minus however big Apple's cut is? Deal?
And Tarquin, move the screen off centre when I'm casting spells? How can I see whats going on? If I turn off the screen I wont see any lag at all, amazing isnt it? If I delete the game I might have a permanent fix!
It is not just a few spells that causes lag, some are just worse. Try firing MM from two casters at the same time, it triples the already noticable lag.
It sounds like you don't believe me? If anyone knows how I can measure FPS on my iPad I'll be happy to go through each and every spell.
I believe It was you Dee who denied me my refund in the fst place(?) so I'm not sure what to say to you anymore. Please please please?
I think the reason you aren't getting much traction with your complaint is that so many of us have had great experiences with the iPad version, as is. Yeah AOE spells slow the graphics down some, but the game is stable, the interface works well, and its completely playable. I have won the EE version twice on my 3rd gen iPad, and have three other characters on-going. I look forward to the coming improvements, but I'm playing while I wait, not putting anything hold. This seems like Biff Tannen complaining "you never told me your car has a blind spot..." You have to expect issues with any software. When the issues are not critical or game breaking a more moderate response seems appropriate.
To be fair, we don't like the lag either, which is one of the major reasons why we've put so much time into finding a solution. So I wouldn't go so far as to say that the lag with large AoE spells is "acceptable" by our standards, even if most people find it minor enough to continue playing.
To put a cap on the technical debate - as I understand it: The problem is not the hardware, it is the drivers. Some drivers handle texture throughput very well, others not so well. Unfortunately BGEE was primarily built and tested on systems that had high performance drivers.
Once this problem was identified and understood, the game renderer was re-written and optimized for the - shall we say "less than perfect"? - drivers. We are hoping to get this update into your hands very soon.
So according to your comment Cerevant you are admitting that a game released for the iPad wasnt tested properly on the iPad?
Its pretty obvious but great to hear directly.
Imagine releasing a console port of a PC game and then when the game has crippling issues on the console you blame the PC game? That's illogical!
The iPad is a closed platform. The specs and drivers of the iPad is available to Overhaul. I cannot choose my hardware on the iPad like I can with a PC. In this scenario you just have to stop blaming intel and blame yourself for releasing it without testing it.
Still no patch either! I keep hearing that you are working on it but I also keep hearing how you are working on other projects at the same time. Clearly Overhaul doesn't care enough to prioritize its already existing iPad customer base over new products and projects.
Maybe fellas at Overhaul are trying to qualify for a position on the new simcity team?
1) The definition of acceptable performance / playable is a subjective one. Yes, of course we weren't happy with the performance on the iPad, but we felt that it was still playable. The alternative was to hold off on shipping the iPad version until, well, now. Given our reviews on the App Store, it looks like this was the right decision - a large majority are happy with the game.
2) Does that mean we are content to drop this issue and move on? No, we think we can do better, and we will. Opinions like yours are important to us, and we want people to love playing this game.
3) A development team is made up of different skills and talents. In the case of the renderer, there is one person on the team (Cam Tofer) who is best qualified to solve this problem. There are probably two others who could work on it, but this is Cam's specialty. Yes, he's had to work on other things, but this has been his top priority. The bulk of the team are scripters - people who implement game content. The folks in this group do not even have access to the engine source code.
And finally, I'm not sure what you expected to gain by insulting the game developers, but I can state that it is not in the least bit motivating.
The alternative was to focus primarily on the iPad (and later Android), since iPad users have had no alternative to BGEE whatsoever, whereas PC and even Mac users have a way to launch BG (or any other of the tens and hundreds of great rpgs out there) and cope with the wait. The current result of BGEE being a half-baked game (from an iPad point of view), instead of a brilliant AAA title RPG, is rather frustrating, since I've been waiting for one forever, and still am, as it is unplayable in its current state.
Considering positive reviews, being happy about the fact that the game is present on a tablet doesn't imply being happy about how it works.
That said, I have no quarrel with the developers, and hope that all the hardships will be dealt with soon.
If i knew that the game was broken on Ipad I've would have bought the PC version of it, but now I'll have to stuck with this... of course it's playable... you just need to avoid casting spells... This is not good at all... I hope for a fix soon, but since now I know how this company works, I don't expect any fix... maybe it will get slightly better, but they don't care for fixing... And that's because some idiot gives 5 star to everything on the appstore, even if broken, and then the developers come here to the forum and say that everyone is fine with playing without area spells... well I'm not!
I was hoping for a resolution at least by the end of may, wasn't to be. And now with the legal bullshit the enhanced edition franchise is probably dead in the water. Thank god for the last of us ...
A few possible solutions (besides complaining): 1. Close all other background applications. Double click home. Hold finger on an app until red X's appear. Close all apps. Restart BG. 2. Ram issue: restart ipad. 3. Space issue: turn off "fill remaining space with songs" and make sure there's 5-10% of your HD free
This is basic troubleshooting. Better than whining like a little *****, don't you think?
I've played heaps on the iPad. I've recently played an all arcane party which was quite fun. Web works fine for me as of the last patch. Entangle and some cloud effects cause lag to varying degrees but its either playable (cloudkill) or no big loss.
In general I've had very little issue and seen it improve markedly from one patch to the next.
Most lag that I've had was from some big scripts present in Sword Coast Strategems but even that seemed to work itself out and was great to play with with smarter mages and priests.
At this point it's moot to bother with bg:ee anyway, at least until the legal situation gets resolved. I mean, not much point without the chance to play bg2:ee.
Well it's been 9 months now since I purchased BGEE on iPad and I'm still waiting to be able to play it. I understand the reason given for not being able to provide a refund and I can't be bothered asking Apple for a refund, even if we have laws to protect us from purchases not fit for purpose, because Apple have shown to play hard and it's not worth the effort imho, but I think there is the possibility to offer a free copy of BGEE on Windows or Mac for those that purchased it on iPad. Is there not, Dee? Could we not email you our purchase receipt in exchange for a key? The good will might even make me want to purchase BG2EE.
Edit: Nerver mind that, it's only $5 on Steam. Problem solved. Wish it was dual OS PC/Mac but PC will do in a Windows WM I guess. I'll go back to iPad when and if it ever gets fixed. The day the iPad version is an elevated experience and not a diminished one will be a great day indeed - dreaming on.
The iPad is far from a high performance machine. I had it running on a computer with 60 times the ram, and it ran drastically slow. They put a warning about incompatibility with Intel integrated graphics. They should have done the same thing for iPad. I was glad just to have a copy of it that had the features I wanted. Just have something else to do while you're using it. They just haven't utilized the full support for the game engine yet. Personally, I got it as a demo / personal beta use first, until they included the features I wanted. To get any new end game running on an iPad is impressive. Possibly you could gift the game, if you can transfer the licence. Whether you can sell it post retail is something else. That's an Apple issue. I have somebody that might be interested (note the game's on sale now for $5). If Apple marketed the game inaccurately, that's a problem with their sales. Apple denies other sources to sell products for their iPads. To say that any iPad is functional may be an overstatement (but that's a personal opinion).
My main question is, why are there different licences needed for MS Windows and Apple Mac on the Beamdog site? Is it that the implementation isn't presumed to meet satisfactory standards?
Comments
It's down to software, obviously, but that software has to be programmed with a specific type of hardware in mind - which ultimately comes down to the hardware that they want to develop for and what it can handle. You can make all the improvements to the software that you want, and it will run on my gaming/development desktop just fine.
256GB OCX SSD (with multiple TB HDDs and NAT devices), GTX690 4GB graphics card, i7 Extreme 3.30GHz six-core, 32GB 2133MHz OC RAM.
But the target cannot possibly be my gaming desktop, not when dealing with mobile devices. So the software must be developed specifically with that restriction in mind, and they are dealing with it. Part of dealing with it means trying to optimise it for both Android and iPad together, I assume (I'm not privvy to their internal workings, so I'm guessing on what they're optimising for). After all, what's the point in optimising it for iPad, then going to work on the Android only to find that the iPad optimisations just aren't going to cut it for Android. The iPad 4 ARM chips are more powerful than many (can't say all since I don't really follow it like I do with desktops) of the Android based device ARM chips. Meaning that if they can optimise it for a lower specification device (like I said: hardware), it should then work fine on the iPad.
There is nothing new in the game that would require a computer with your specs. Compare the effects in Bastion for example or numerous other games wi extensive graphics with this game. BG:EE is far from the most graphically complex game I have. The very fact that it takes a powerful righ such as yours proves that the fault is in the coding.
The situation with integrated graphics on PC can be more easily explained away but Overhaul released it on the iPad and it is a closed platform . This is a dishonest business practice and the community has been far too patient and protective.
I should have the right to a refund and Overhaul should man up to their responsibility and pay me and stop hiding behind Apple.
What they're trying to do right now is aim for the lowest specification of the current devices, the Android devices, so that optimisations from there can be spread to other platforms while also getting it sorted for the eventual release, at least that is my assumption - I, like most gamers, am not briefed on their priorities, so I can only guess.
Which was my explanation regarding hardware, and why they're probably aiming for Android instead of focusing all their efforts purely on the iPad.
As for Overhaul 'manning up,' I can only repeat what they've said about Apple's business practice regarding refunds. It's the same as the Steam version in that sense, which is to say that it's not entirely up to them to give a refund - from what I understand, they've been very good in giving refunds to people who have purchased the game through the Beamdog site, so I'd wager it's more to do with Apple in this case. That's not to say they are hiding behind them.
I can understand that patience is wearing thin, but you know what they say: good things come to those who wait
I'm going to sell a car to Trent that can't go over 20mph and when he complains I will claim that the purchase in unrefundable and refuse to fix it for 6 months and see how he feels. I wonder if he would sue me.
I'm sorry you're disappointed with the iPad version, and we do have some improvements coming to that platform very soon. If you have other concerns, you can direct them to support@baldursgate.com and I'll address them personally.
It HARDLY makes the game unplayable. That's a bit of a histrionic response. At worst it makes combat involving those particular spells slow. Move your viewport off the center of the spell and things get back almost to full speed.
Yeah, it's an unfortunate issue, but I've been playing two characters on iOS BG1 since the day it was released and even with the initial GUI issues, the current slowdown issue, and some other minor nits, I still find the iPad experience much more pleasing than playing on PC/Mac!
Personally my biggest gripe with the iPad version is downloading multiple gigabytes every time there is a patch! Can't the data portion be separated from the app portion? I'm pretty sure other games on iOS allow the content to be downloaded separately from the Core Game. Crazy idea--BG1 core as a free DLC?? The retina iPad doesn't have the full highres UI graphics, does it? Highres UI DLC?
Apple's policy is what you should really be complaining about!
Second, Beamdog has repeatedly said they are working on rendering improvements. The rendering issues relate specially to OpenGL, a technology which was not present in the original. Your Celeron computer back in 1999 never had a 2048x1536 screen either--more like 640x480. That's a lot of upscaling and a lot more pixels to push. Beamdog has never "refused" to work on any improvement. They've added a lot of new content, features, and improvements every fix.
It's too bad you weren't able to cope with the slowdown in combat. That's no reason for you to lie, however. Anonymity can do funny things to some people.
And Tarquin, move the screen off centre when I'm casting spells? How can I see whats going on? If I turn off the screen I wont see any lag at all, amazing isnt it? If I delete the game I might have a permanent fix!
It is not just a few spells that causes lag, some are just worse. Try firing MM from two casters at the same time, it triples the already noticable lag.
It sounds like you don't believe me? If anyone knows how I can measure FPS on my iPad I'll be happy to go through each and every spell.
I believe It was you Dee who denied me my refund in the fst place(?) so I'm not sure what to say to you anymore. Please please please?
This seems like Biff Tannen complaining "you never told me your car has a blind spot..." You have to expect issues with any software. When the issues are not critical or game breaking a more moderate response seems appropriate.
Once this problem was identified and understood, the game renderer was re-written and optimized for the - shall we say "less than perfect"? - drivers. We are hoping to get this update into your hands very soon.
Its pretty obvious but great to hear directly.
Imagine releasing a console port of a PC game and then when the game has crippling issues on the console you blame the PC game? That's illogical!
The iPad is a closed platform. The specs and drivers of the iPad is available to Overhaul. I cannot choose my hardware on the iPad like I can with a PC. In this scenario you just have to stop blaming intel and blame yourself for releasing it without testing it.
Still no patch either! I keep hearing that you are working on it but I also keep hearing how you are working on other projects at the same time. Clearly Overhaul doesn't care enough to prioritize its already existing iPad customer base over new products and projects.
Maybe fellas at Overhaul are trying to qualify for a position on the new simcity team?
2) Does that mean we are content to drop this issue and move on? No, we think we can do better, and we will. Opinions like yours are important to us, and we want people to love playing this game.
3) A development team is made up of different skills and talents. In the case of the renderer, there is one person on the team (Cam Tofer) who is best qualified to solve this problem. There are probably two others who could work on it, but this is Cam's specialty. Yes, he's had to work on other things, but this has been his top priority. The bulk of the team are scripters - people who implement game content. The folks in this group do not even have access to the engine source code.
And finally, I'm not sure what you expected to gain by insulting the game developers, but I can state that it is not in the least bit motivating.
Considering positive reviews, being happy about the fact that the game is present on a tablet doesn't imply being happy about how it works.
That said, I have no quarrel with the developers, and hope that all the hardships will be dealt with soon.
This is not good at all... I hope for a fix soon, but since now I know how this company works, I don't expect any fix... maybe it will get slightly better, but they don't care for fixing...
And that's because some idiot gives 5 star to everything on the appstore, even if broken, and then the developers come here to the forum and say that everyone is fine with playing without area spells...
well I'm not!
1. Close all other background applications. Double click home. Hold finger on an app until red X's appear. Close all apps. Restart BG.
2. Ram issue: restart ipad.
3. Space issue: turn off "fill remaining space with songs" and make sure there's 5-10% of your HD free
This is basic troubleshooting. Better than whining like a little *****, don't you think?
I've played heaps on the iPad. I've recently played an all arcane party which was quite fun. Web works fine for me as of the last patch. Entangle and some cloud effects cause lag to varying degrees but its either playable (cloudkill) or no big loss.
In general I've had very little issue and seen it improve markedly from one patch to the next.
Most lag that I've had was from some big scripts present in Sword Coast Strategems but even that seemed to work itself out and was great to play with with smarter mages and priests.
Edit: Nerver mind that, it's only $5 on Steam. Problem solved. Wish it was dual OS PC/Mac but PC will do in a Windows WM I guess. I'll go back to iPad when and if it ever gets fixed. The day the iPad version is an elevated experience and not a diminished one will be a great day indeed - dreaming on.
If Apple marketed the game inaccurately, that's a problem with their sales. Apple denies other sources to sell products for their iPads. To say that any iPad is functional may be an overstatement (but that's a personal opinion).
My main question is, why are there different licences needed for MS Windows and Apple Mac on the Beamdog site? Is it that the implementation isn't presumed to meet satisfactory standards?
Even if your have something incensed to say, you can at least try to be decent.
That said, this next patch should drastically improve performance on the iPad.