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Ranged Fighter/Mage

mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
I'm thinking making a fighter/mage that fights from the back with a bow. I plan to play this character till the end of ToB. The question is whether it's better to make it dual or multi-class? The dual class one will of course be a better mage and will be able to get grand mastery in his bow of choice. On the other hand, I can play as an elf for the multi-class and get the elven bonus to bows and 19 dex.

Yes, I know going melee is better in BG2. But who hasn't played a dual wielding fighter/mage? I want to try something a little different.
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  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    edited May 2013
    Well~ Hrm~

    My first thought reading the title was Dual Classed Fighter/Mage Grandmastering in Crossbows.

    The elf bonuses would be overwhelmed by the dual classed fighter bonuses, so unless you wanted to do that for fun or roleplay reasons I'd go for Dual Classing just for sheer power.

    You can get Firetooth shortly after BG2 starts and just chunk guys with an unending supply of fire bolts. And that's before you get into using your magic.


    This doesn't get into things like, Fighter HLAs or not having to earn your fighter levels back. But you shouldn't have too much of an issue as the mage HLAs are pretty darn good, the fighter ones aren't, and getting your levels back will be easy unless they adjust down the XP earned for memorizing spells in BG2.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    It's been a long time since I played ToB, but I'm sort of vaguely recalling that arrows don't work on many (most?) of the high level opponents in ToB... If that is so, one advantage of multi-class might be that you'd have profs also in melee weapons, and probably also access to high level spells.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    If you're playing BG1 through ToB I recommend Multi-Class, Elf. You'll get more prof points so you're not a one trick pony - like Lemernis already said. Bows won't cut it in ToB, I'm afraid. If you prefer the back row throwing weapons might be better, not sure. Never tried those in ToB.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    If I do go the dual route, what's a good level to dual?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    13 is great if you're dualing in BG2.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    Otherwise go for 7-9 for bonus 1/2 attack and more HP/THAC0, respectively..
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Fighter 7->Mage 8 I believe is the max you can go in BGEE.
  • Flame_ExcessFlame_Excess Member Posts: 29
    mylegbig said:

    But who hasn't played a dual wielding fighter/mage?

    I don't know what you're talking about. When starting a multi-player game, all my characters were dualed fighters and had max proficiency in a ranged weapon for optimal close-quarter and ranged combat. Hehe.

    I guess that's why I feel like I can give you some good feedback on this topic.

    If you just wish to tear up all the ennemies you come accross, choose the Fighter dualed Mage path. It's without a doubt the very best at giving you both proficiency points as HP, good THAC'O, and making you just as good a mage as if you would be one from level 1.

    Then if you what you really want is to try something different, I would go with your elf. But not a Fighter/Mage. A Fighter/Thief/Mage. This character is the only one I've seen being able to abuse as many rules as any character can possibly do. Maybe not as easy to handle in BG1 for your first few levels, but will still kick some ass in ToB next to your Fighter/Mage.
  • NifftNifft Member Posts: 1,065
    I did this in the Black Pits.

    Human Fighter 3 > Mage, 2 dots in Longbow, then 3rd dot at level 3, then 4th dot at Mage level 6.

    He was great. Lots of options in combat.

    More Fighter levels would be better for the end-battle, but would also require more time to get back. With just Fighter 3, he was able to use his bow for something like 85% of the game.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    played fighter/ilusionist gnome bg1 with bow he was almost as good as coran(killing) but more tanky
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    I actually think that a multiclass fighter/mage in a small party will be best throughout the game:

    You will have the advantages of both classes in early game.
    You won't have to wait to get your fighter levels back.
    You will get xp quickly due to a small party (so your level will be higher)
    You can specialize in both ranged and melee, so you will have a very versatile character which is more suited for a small party

    Of course this is arguable, but then still the multiclass char is more fun to play i.m.o.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    Why don't you pick the best of both worlds and invest in Axes?
    You can throw them or use them in close combat. Plus, in any case they benefit from your Strength bonus.
    If you intend to use the character in ToB, I recommend multi-classing (maybe a Gnome?) unless you're willing to play only one class in BG, since dual-classing at BG low levels isn't so interesting on a saga run (it's more or less the same as single class).
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Throwing Axes weigh so much it's a chore using them as your primary weapon.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    @FinneousPJ Yes, I must admit they're not convenient to carry until you get the +2 one. Shame it comes so late in the game...
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Axes are too heavy for most characters. Have 18/90 or better, and expect to run out often. Daggers are better, but no returning dagger!
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Ranged weapons are fairly bad in ToB. There are only two viable weapons, really, the Firetooth+4/5 crossbow (not to be confused with the Fire Tooth+3 throwing dagger) and the Tuigan Bow+1.

    The crossbow has a high enchantment and needs no ammunition; even with ammo, though, it adds fire damage - a trick that can be abused to pierce PfMW+Stoneskin combos on enemy mages by loading unenchanted bolts.

    The bow has the highest APR of any ranged weapon, meaning that it will likely deal the most damage (despite only being +1).

    In any case, ranged weapons are inherently diminished in their effectiveness in ToB, both because of APR limitations (can't get to 5 APR unbuffed with ranged) and because arrows cap at +3 enchantment, which is not enough to hit many ToB bosses. In addition, piercing resistance is fairly common, making these weapons even worse. Add to that the fact that bows do not confer the nice secondary bonuses of many endgame ToB weapons (such as random resistances, bonus damage, stat bonuses...) and you see why it's so difficult to make a good ToB ranged fighter.

    That being said, there are some ways around this. Both Melf's Minute Meteors and Energy Blades are very good spells at the end of the game (in most setups anyway). You could use these instead of actual weapons when faced with a boss requiring high enchantment to hit, and keep firing your arrows at everything else. It likely won't be as good as a melee character, but it'll be something different in terms of flavor.

    Side note: in terms of power, when you're going all the way to ToB, there really is no reason not to dual a fighter at lvl 13. APR is the single biggest contributor to damage output, and is absolutely worth the minor hassle of regaining an extra few levels; this is especially true if you dual into a mage, who can regain a substantial amount of XP almost instantly through mass-scribing of scrolls.
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    @DreadKhan Unfortunately, daggers don't benefit from the STR bonus.
    There's an alternative from Taerom who sells +1 throwing axes for a base price of 10GP/unit. It only weights 2LBS/unit.
    @Lord_Tansheron I quite agree with Tuigan being one of the best ranged weapons. But ApR can also be boosted by the fighter HLA whirlwind attack.
  • AnduinAnduin Member Posts: 5,745
    Reading what you want and need. I would dual. Do it early. Lvl 1 is even doable! Multiclass if you want your fighter/Mage to hold the line in ToB. Ranged attacks, thus your dual option, don't cut the mustard later on in the game.
  • CorpusDelictiCorpusDelicti Member Posts: 45
    I think the Gesen Bow in BG2 is a +4 short bow, which allows for unlimited +4 arrows.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212

    I think the Gesen Bow in BG2 is a +4 short bow, which allows for unlimited +4 arrows.

    You are indeed correct. So I guess it's possible after all to go full bow! Not that it's a very good weapon...

    While you can certainly compensate for a lack of APR by using (Greater) Whirlwind Attack, it is still a DPS loss compared to someone with native max APR. Why? Because you lose time activating the attack for once, and also because you really would rather activate (and pick on level-up) Critical Strike instead. Ranged weapons will never match melee in damage output, and their range advantage is almost irrelevant in the light of Boots of Speed (and Haste).
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    Many comments about the ranged attacks being lackluster in ToB. I don't agree that this would make the character too weak.

    Throughout all of BG1 ranged attacks will be extremely good, ToB is just a small part of the game in which you will be using mostly the magic casting of the F/T and you will have grandmastery in melee weapons by that time as well anyway..
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    "Too weak" is relative. It will certainly be weaker than a comparable melee character in nearly all respects for most of SoA and ToB, though. It's not just ToB that ranged is worse, it's merely worst there. It definitely is good in BG1, that much is true, but about midway through SoA at most it is overshadowed by melee.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Fire tooth or gesen bow are nasty if you cheese them with ammo. Heh.

    Also, when did thrown daggers lose str? Makes sense for darts, which are perhaps too light to add significant momentum. Also, unless you have a big str score to carry, you won't be benefiting that much per round anyways.
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552

    "Too weak" is relative. It will certainly be weaker than a comparable melee character in nearly all respects for most of SoA and ToB, though. It's not just ToB that ranged is worse, it's merely worst there. It definitely is good in BG1, that much is true, but about midway through SoA at most it is overshadowed by melee.

    In my opinion it is mostly about finding a suitable role in the party, especially with SCS2 installed. I am for example currently using Mazzy and I must say I find it really useful to have a decent archer in the back that can quickly switch to melee to protect the rear line. One-to-one a melee character may be stronger, but there are plenty of npc's to fulfill those frontline positions. It is about the composition of the party and how you make use of the different qualities.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I'm not sure what the advantages of a ranged character are, aside from not losing time getting into melee/switching targets - and once Haste becomes ubiquitous in one form or another, that just stops applying. I get how archers are strong in BG1 and early SoA, but what makes them stand out after that? All that really matters in the end is damage output. Kiting rarely plays into it because this game doesn't have a real aggro system.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    The benefit is killing stuff all the way across the room/forest/forbidden temple. Ignoring roleplay or thematic elements.

  • DrEastDrEast Member Posts: 113
    I've always wanted to play a human fighter -> mage with grandmastery in darts, just for the fun of it...
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    DrEast said:

    I've always wanted to play a human fighter -> mage with grandmastery in darts, just for the fun of it...

    That figures to be a surprisingly uber character build, actually. Darts have what is it... 3 attacks per round to begin with? They also get the Strength damage bonus, I believe... Darts of Wounding do 20 points poison damage in 20 seconds. With Grandmastery and Hasted? Yikes! You could dual from Assassin for even more poison damage, but at that rate it would quite literally be 'overkill'. And of course there are Darts of Stunning as well.

    Another Fighter I want to try out soon is a character with grandmastery in Crossbow, using the Light Crossbow of Speed which confers one extra attack per round. Bolts of Biting deliver 30 points of poison in 15 seconds!
  • AbelAbel Member Posts: 785
    edited May 2013
    DreadKhan said:

    Also, when did thrown daggers lose str? Makes sense for darts, which are perhaps too light to add significant momentum. Also, unless you have a big str score to carry, you won't be benefiting that much per round anyways.

    Heh, you're right about Daggers, my mistake!
    So it makes for a good alternative since they don't weigh anything!
    For hand-to-hand combat, there are the nasty Dagger of Venom and the short-swordy Longtooth.
    Daggers, why not?
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    DrEast said:

    I've always wanted to play a human fighter -> mage with grandmastery in darts, just for the fun of it...

    Come to think of it: is it possible to dual class wizard slayer to mage? That would be some screwed up roleplay ^^
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