Best Ranged Thief?

Petrecles

I want to make an evil thief using a ranged weapon (bow?) for BGee. Will not be importing to BG2. Definitely want great thieving skills and I'd like them somewhat early. Dual F/T? at level 3 maybe? Elf Swashbuckler? Wish I could make an evil Archer/Thief...

CaptRory

An Elven Fighter/Thief or a dual classed Fighter/Thief would probably be best. Since we're only talking about the first game, an assassin wouldn't work. That's a Long Haul kil there.

That said an elven swashbuckler would probably be fun too.

Eudaemonium

Elves get +1 to hit with bows, however a F/T elf dual will only get Specialisation. Overall, I'd go human Fighter to level 7, and then dual to Thief, that gives you +1/2 APR and you can get Grandmastery in the bow of your choice at Thief 8. Grandmastery gives you a whole APR extra, as well as +3 to hit and +5 damage. An elf with specialisation would only have +2 to hit and +2 damage or so. The extra point of dex might make a difference, but I doubt as much as Grandmastery would, because of the extra attack.

Petrecles

Thanks! Fighter 7 then dual to thief seems like it might be a while before I would get any good thieving skills no?

P.S- Obviously I don't care about backstabbing much

CaptRory

Dumping all your thief points into one skill means it'll be useable immediately. So you can get one thief skill to a useable point immediately. But it'll take awhile to max just one skill out let alone become the party's dedicated rogue, which is where the MultiClass works out a bit better in the short term (IE across the first game).

Eudaemonium

Yeah, I'd run another Thief in your party to deal with traps and locks until you've dualed and your skills are up. And it will be a while; you can dual at 6 and it's far faster but you miss out on the extra 1/2 APR. Dualing at 7 is better for the long-haul (dualing at 13 is good, but is only in BG2 and takes a long year to get your abilities back).

Petrecles

Hmm. So an Elven Swashbuckler at level 10 would have the extra point in Dex, +1 Thac0 from race, +2 from weapon pips and +2 to hit/+2 damage from Kit? Meaning it would be +4 to hit and +4 damage plus the Dex modifier? (but no extra APR)

Is this correct?

PS-Thanks for the quick and helpful replies

Eudaemonium

Hmmm. I think so. I'm assuming the Swashie bonus works for ranged, and not just melee? And of course you'd keep getting +1 damage and THAC0 every 5 levels, so by the end of ToB you'd have +8 to both.

IkMarc

It really depends on which thieving skills you want to use. Could you extend on that?

Awong124

Eudaemonium said:

Overall, I'd go human Fighter to level 7, and then dual to Thief, that gives you +1/2 APR and you can get Grandmastery in the bow of your choice at Thief 8.

It doesn't work that way. When you get an extra proficiency point to spend at Thief 8, you can't put it into whatever it is you have Mastery in to make it Grand Mastery. You regain the Mastery attained from when you were a Fighter, but you'd be limited only to Proficient when you're a Thief and want to spend a new proficiency point.

It works the other way around though, if you dual from a Thief to a Fighter.

FinneousPJ

It does work in BG.

Eudaemonium

Awong124 said:

Eudaemonium said:

Overall, I'd go human Fighter to level 7, and then dual to Thief, that gives you +1/2 APR and you can get Grandmastery in the bow of your choice at Thief 8.

It doesn't work that way. When you get an extra proficiency point to spend at Thief 8, you can't put it into whatever it is you have Mastery in to make it Grand Mastery. You regain the Mastery attained from when you were a Fighter, but you'd be limited only to Proficient when you're a Thief and want to spend a new proficiency point.

It works the other way around though, if you dual from a Thief to a Fighter.

Actually, it does work this way. I should know, since I do it regularly, both with Charnames and with characters like Shar-Teel. When you reclaim your Fighter levels you can continue to put points in your Fighter proficiencies up to GM. My Fighter>Thief for example, did this:

F1: ++ Quarterstaff, ++ 2H Style
F3: +++ Quarterstaff
F6: ++++ Quarterstaff
Dual at 7: T1: + Longsword, + Crossbow
T4: + Single Weapon Style
T8/Regain F levels: +++++ Quarterstaff

Awong124

Hmm... I thought I remember trying it before and it didn't work. Oh well, I guess it does then.

Lemernis

I'm currently rolling up a party that includes an Assassin dualed at level 2 to Fighter. She's going to be a dart hurler, with Grandmastery in Darts.

What would you all recommend for the two pips she gets upon character creation as an Assassin?

Petrecles

IkMarc said:

It really depends on which thieving skills you want to use. Could
you extend on that?

Well I don't want to need any other thief. So the main things are detect traps, open locks , pickpocket and steath for scouting I guess. I wouldn't mind throwing a few traps around and I read detect illusion is useful as well. I imagine there are potions for things like pickpocket that I could use and could use a mage with knock. I played BG2 Years ago but have never played BG1...I want it all lol.

JuliusBorisov

@Lemernis

Well, considering points in Sword & Shield or Single Weapon style don't give you bonuses if you use darts, you can use the way you want the two pips an Assassin that will become a Fighter at the 2nd level gets at the start. It's completely up to you.

But from my experience, there will be situations in the game when you just have to switch to a melee weapon - at least, to reduce the THACO bonus an enemy gets against a character with a ranged weapon. In these situations you just have no time or a space to retreat. Also, taking into account there're many close battles in the dungeons, caves, rooms and other tiny locations, it's better for any fighter to at least not have penalties in one melee weapon of your choice.

Moreover, there're some enemies that are better be dealt with while using a magical melee weapon with a good THACO. Davaeorn is one of them, for example.

Also, maybe - maybe - you'll sometimes decide to backstab - although your stats in MS and HiS will be low, Boots of Stealth and a Shadow Armor can help a bit. And even while it'll be only x2 multiplier, it will still be a sneak attack that can be useful (especially while the Poison Weapon ability is active) + additional THACO because of a sneak attack. In this case not having a penalty in a melee weapon is helpful.

Personally, I'd go with * in long swords (for a brilliant Varscona) and * in a Single Weapon style (for AC and critical hit bonuses while using a sword).

JuliusBorisov

@Petrecles

It's much - MUCH - better to use a halfling, an elf or a gnome as a single thief in the party than a human. They get so many bonuses to thieving skills.

Moreover, if you intend to use a bow, an elf is even better.

Taking into account your intentions (the single thief in the party, using any thieving ability as much as you could except backstabs, good ranged attacking power) I'd choose a Swashbuckler. He fits perfectly.

By the way, he can scout as well (he can use HiS and MS) and get +4 THACO bonus with sneak attacks although they don't get a multiplier - but you don't need a multiplier with a ranged attack at all.

Personally, I'd take a halfling Swashbuckler as he gets the biggest amount of bonuses, can have 19 Dex at the start (very useful for ranged attacks and for bonuses to thieving skills) and his -1 penalty to Str is not so important if your main aim is using a ranged weapon. I'd give this halfling a Crossbow of Speed (that has the same number of attacks as a bow) - the damage will be higher than when you use a Short bow.

Regarding dualclassing I'd like to mention I don't like to spend much game time without an ability to use your primary abilities and if this thief will be the only one in the party, a human dual-classed character won't be able to use every thieving skills effectively - he won't have a needed amount of points so you'll have to concentrate on two of them.

+1 damage and THAC0 every 5 levels, no penalties to the number of thieving points at the start and at every level up... if you don't plan to use backstabs it's the best.

Petrecles

@bengoshi
Thanks! I was thinking Elf Swashbuckler because of the extra Thac0 with bows. The shorty saving throws and the extra 25 skill points at creation are something to think about..

Does the Elven bonus to bows apply to every type of bow/crossbow?

JuliusBorisov

@Petrecles

The elven bonuses are applied to bows only (thieves can use only short bows, with HLA "Use any item" in BG2 they'll be able to use long bows as well). Not crossbows!

Also the elven bonuses are applied to all kind of swords although it may seem strange a bit and can be changed in the future patches /BG2EE.

By the way, 65 points in Open Locks at the start is enough to open the chest on the second floor of the inn.

Petrecles

@bengoshi

Woot thanks again! Short bows it is! Every decision is such a chore for me lol. It is a pleasure when I find the answer I am looking for

I don't know which sword he will end up wanting to use so I'm going to throw the other point into 1 handed weapon because I will try to avoid melee (even though I have 18 Str) and if in melee range I'd rather escape and go back to range. Those times when ranged is ineffective at least it will help me survive.

Zzidolfas86

Poison weapon + ranged attack = Wizard slayer

CaptRory

Short Swords kinda suck~

There's a Dagger of Venom for sale which is great in the first game. And staves are a great choice. I know, its weird. You can't backstab as a swashie though so going straight up dual wielding longswords might be the best long term choice.

Petrecles

@Zzidolfas86

Yeah thats nice but I lose thief skill points right? I am betting there are arrows I can use for dire circumstances against a mage, and there will be other companions too. I want to be the only thief in the party.

CaptRory

Each kit has its advantages and disadvantages. Assassins lose out on skill points and their abilities only really beome fully realized in the second game and at that point they're a bit lackluster. According to conventonal wisdom anyway. Swashbuckler trades backstabs for basicly being a Fighter/Thief while only being single classed. Its one of my favorite kits because I dislike risking my rogues backstabbing away from party support.

Petrecles

@CaptRory

Yeah quarterstaves and 1 handed entered my mind because switching weapons would be easy lol. It's a pain to switch from two handed to dual weapons iirc. I am not planning on importing to BG2 so the dagger may be the answer. Is the dagger so good a fighter would want it? I plan on taking the evil paladin, another fighter type, a mage, and a cleric/healer of some sort. The last slot will be for whatever.

Zzidolfas86

I wish they would add the Duelist for the Thief class to be honest, even tho it does melt somewhat into Swashbuckler.

On the point of poison arrows, they stack with any other kind of arrows. So you can fire dispel arrows with it on and just demolish anything in BG1

They do get less thief points, but you level up so fast anyway

Southpaw

My Assassin with the crossbow of speed (2apr) and bracers of archery had THAC0 around 12 quite early. At level 5 (out of max 10). And two Poison Weapons a day.

Throw in Haste/oil of speed and the thief with 3apr and poison at will was able to mow down whole maps on his own. Sirens stood no chance. He was not min-maxed and used crossbow, which is a worse option for thieves than bow (Imoen had a bow). Throw in some buff spells and +1 bolts/poison bolts, get even more levels and the Assassin is a monster.

You still get 2 thieving skills to (or close to) 100% at the end of the game. In my case, it was Traps and Hide in Shadows (prep for BG2) plus some Pickpocket. Not as cheesy as a fighter->thief, but powerful in his own accord.


...food for thought...

CaptRory

Switching weapons is a pain~
But you won't do it often in all likelihood.

I don't see any problem if you went and took daggers and one weapon style though.

Lemernis

bengoshi said:

@Lemernis

Well, considering points in Sword & Shield or Single Weapon style don't give you bonuses if you use darts, you can use the way you want the two pips an Assassin that will become a Fighter at the 2nd level gets at the start. It's completely up to you.

But from my experience, there will be situations in the game when you just have to switch to a melee weapon - at least, to reduce the THACO bonus an enemy gets against a character with a ranged weapon. In these situations you just have no time or a space to retreat. Also, taking into account there're many close battles in the dungeons, caves, rooms and other tiny locations, it's better for any fighter to at least not have penalties in one melee weapon of your choice.

Moreover, there're some enemies that are better be dealt with while using a magical melee weapon with a good THACO. Davaeorn is one of them, for example.

Also, maybe - maybe - you'll sometimes decide to backstab - although your stats in MS and HiS will be low, Boots of Stealth and a Shadow Armor can help a bit. And even while it'll be only x2 multiplier, it will still be a sneak attack that can be useful (especially while the Poison Weapon ability is active) + additional THACO because of a sneak attack. In this case not having a penalty in a melee weapon is helpful.

Personally, I'd go with * in long swords (for a brilliant Varscona) and * in a Single Weapon style (for AC and critical hit bonuses while using a sword).

Sword and Shield will at least give -2 to AC for missiles. So I could have her equip a shield when throwing darts. And if this is a character who doesn't backstab, she could be heavily armored and actually engage enemy archers to draw their fire as she attacks enemy spellcasters. If I can get her AC low enough that should work. And there are some Large shields with great bonuses. With this anti-arcane magic party she'll be vulnerable to spells as such, of course. But that's the challenge to this particular setup (the party eschews arcane magic and will not use many enchanted items).

If I go this route then for the other pip could be Shortbow to be able to add additional poison to Arrows of Biting.

As you say, the other route is to backstab occasionally with Single Weapon Style and a melee weapon.

JuliusBorisov

@Lemernis

No! Sword and Shield style's bonuses don't work with darts and slings! That's what I'm trying to say.

http://forum.baldursgate.com/discussion/15109/weapon-styles-sword-shield-and-single-weapon-not-working-with-darts-and-slings

Lemernis

@bengoshi Ah, thanks! I did not know that! (obviously, lol)

I mean, some shields confer bonuses in and of themselves, so there just wouldn't be that additional -2 to missiles from the Sword and Shield Fighting Style. But the pip would be wasted, of course.