Should mages be able to use clubs?
lunar
Member Posts: 3,460
Okay, so according to PnP, mages are allowed to use only the most basic weapons that require little training and/or skill. Since they are busy with their spell studies most of their time. But, what weapon is more basic than a club? And mages can not even employ them!
Club is equivelant of a quarterstaff, in terms of damage and speed, but is single-handed. A mage can use a staf, but why not a club? It is not like, the mage can make use of shields, or dual-wield clubs, or get single weapon style proficiency.
I do not say being able to use clubs is a very essential thing or a big boost to mages. No, it is not. It just bugs me that, even the item description says 'everyone can find a stout piece of wood and swing it, hence the club's wide spread use' and yet mages can not swing them...at all!
Think about it, it is the most common improvised and primitive weapon. You can find something thick and sturdy everywhere and club someone over their head. Think, in the movies, when an intruder breaks into home at night, the guy always picks up his baseball bat or golf 'club' nearby, because everyone can pick those up and fight with them. (Unless you are a cute blond girl in the kitchen of a horror movie, you can then grab the huge kitchen knife. You are dead in that case, anyway :-D)
I even think that a quarterstaff is even much more difficult to learn to use effectively than a club. To learn how to balance it and grab at where with which hands and how, etc. Heck, even learning to use a war sling must be a very difficult job. Historically, war-slingers have been the elite ranged troops of some nations. They were raised and taught to use the sling effectively since childhood. Like, when they were kids, they were not allowed to eat unless they hit their practice targets with their slings every day. Imagine that! Yet, mages can learn and employ slings easily, but the most basic club, is forever denied to them.
I think mages should be able to equip clubs, and gain proficiency in them. It is not a huge power boost, will not unbalance the game at all. No sane mage will try to club their opponents unless they happen to have a vorpal (!) club+5 of instant death. (joke) Magical clubs are generally among the weakest weapons, anyway.
What do you think?
Club is equivelant of a quarterstaff, in terms of damage and speed, but is single-handed. A mage can use a staf, but why not a club? It is not like, the mage can make use of shields, or dual-wield clubs, or get single weapon style proficiency.
I do not say being able to use clubs is a very essential thing or a big boost to mages. No, it is not. It just bugs me that, even the item description says 'everyone can find a stout piece of wood and swing it, hence the club's wide spread use' and yet mages can not swing them...at all!
Think about it, it is the most common improvised and primitive weapon. You can find something thick and sturdy everywhere and club someone over their head. Think, in the movies, when an intruder breaks into home at night, the guy always picks up his baseball bat or golf 'club' nearby, because everyone can pick those up and fight with them. (Unless you are a cute blond girl in the kitchen of a horror movie, you can then grab the huge kitchen knife. You are dead in that case, anyway :-D)
I even think that a quarterstaff is even much more difficult to learn to use effectively than a club. To learn how to balance it and grab at where with which hands and how, etc. Heck, even learning to use a war sling must be a very difficult job. Historically, war-slingers have been the elite ranged troops of some nations. They were raised and taught to use the sling effectively since childhood. Like, when they were kids, they were not allowed to eat unless they hit their practice targets with their slings every day. Imagine that! Yet, mages can learn and employ slings easily, but the most basic club, is forever denied to them.
I think mages should be able to equip clubs, and gain proficiency in them. It is not a huge power boost, will not unbalance the game at all. No sane mage will try to club their opponents unless they happen to have a vorpal (!) club+5 of instant death. (joke) Magical clubs are generally among the weakest weapons, anyway.
What do you think?
7
Comments
This sounds rather like a Feature Request.
There was a mod that allowed for 'universal clubs' yeah, IIRC it was from either Tweaks or Ease of Use. Weapon styles, I don't know, a single class mage does not take his weapons that seriously to learn different styles. Besides, they get so few proficiencies that, you can hardly spend a precious slot on a weapon style.
@Samus Heh, thanks, I guess. I knew about that 'useful in magical research' thing, so daggers and knives are useful because, well, dissecting various creatures for magical components and the like. And staves are known for their high affinity to magic and the ability to hold their enchantments and powers well, I think. Plus they also help the aged wizard walk around. :-D I am not so sure about darts and slings, though. Maybe some mages try to convert various poisonous animals into darts, like Asp's nest darts. Or, apparently, darts and sling bullets tend to hold their enchantment well too, you can tell from all those new elemental ammo from High Hedge. ^^
While @Samus has a point, consider this: allow mages to pick up clubs, but not be proficient with them.
Since if you can wield a club, why not a mace? It is basically the same thing, except it has a metal head, oh, let me rephrase that, a head carved out of something else than the original stick. So it's a sliding slope...
Ability to use clubs, but not being proficient is the same difference as "librarian grabs baseball bat in self defense" vs. "pro baseball player grabs baseball bat in self defense".
So both make sense. I wouldn't allow crossbows, though, because its much better than a sling and would be bad for balance. Non-dual-wielding clubs is less powerful than using a staff, so clubs sound good though.
However, the BG2 Tweakpack already contains an option for universal clubs, so...
I think I miss the sorceress and necromancer from Diablo II game, bashing the skulls of weak enemies with their wands/orbs. Sure it was not effective but at least they could try.
Then again actual wands in DnD are fragile and dangerous things. They can break easily if you try to club someone over their head. And the result may be catastrophic, think about a wand of fire with 20 fireball charges, if it breaks and all the charges explode..that's 120d6 fire damage, save vs wands for half :-D Heh, I am not sure wands work that way in DnD lore, though.
With that said, if it were up to me, every weapon would be usable by any class. Restrictions would be only be applied via proficiency. It makes no sense that a Mage can't even *try* to use a sword or halberd or whatever, even though he will never use it as efficiently as a warrior.
Nevertheless, weapon restrictions in BG are a classic part of its big picture and I don't think any adjustments to the system are necessary.
You are thinking about this entirely wrong!
When deciding what weapons training they would like to undertake to earn their pip... You must remember that a wizards most important stat is INTELLIGENCE.
So...
Shall I practice hitting things with this piece of wood?
Or shall I practice hitting things with this larger piece of wood?
Hmmm...
It's a no brainer... And explains why Khelben, Elminster and Gandalf all have a staff...
Can you confirm that you preferred a large, stout, meaty rod to grip between your fingers, rather than a limp, short implement with unenviable reach that just didn't motivate you enough to be bothered to thrash about with.
The classic mage weapons in fantasy literature are the staff and the dagger. You could add the darts as a nice touch, and forget the rest. That being said, he should be able to equip other handily available weapons, like the club, but not with proficiency.
- axe
- halberd
- mace
- morningstar
- spear
It is interesting to see everybody's thought on the subject. I still think clubs are not the best suited for mages, yet they should be able to wield it if they want to. A big sword requires special training and strength to wield without cutting yourself, fighters and their ilk are well versed in those type of things, even when they don't know the real balance of the weapon (have proficiency in it) they can equip and swing it if they want. Mages can't, and don't want to. But club is the most basic tool in history, so..
"By every god in a million pantheons, if you even so much as imply that you want to be anything else, I'm making you play a kobold Psionicist."
"Wow, that sounds cool, but I think I like Wizard. Can I retrain--"
"KOBOLD. PSIONICIST."
"Aw, alright..."
"Enjoy your Experience Point Crawl."
That is the one and only thing about 3e that I feel it was an actual improvement over AD&D. I'm with you on this, though if a mod that does away with weapon restrictions comes out, I can't say I won't be trying it out!