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Worried about Kensai / Mage.

Hello Forum,

Me and my friend are going to be playing all of BG1 together (and BG2 when it come out).

He is planning to run a blackguard, and I was thinking about making a kensai / mage.

The problem here is that I have heard that especially in BG2 Kensai / Mages gets really absurdly powerful, and I really don't want to annoy my friend by dominating every combat.

Am I worrying about nothing or should I just run a mage?
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Comments

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Hmm, I would say they are powerful, but not absurdly so.
    Basically regular mages get really powerful at the end of bg2, What elevates kensi mages above them is that they are good in combat as well ass casting spells.
    So you will be useful in pretty much any combat, but you won't be dominating combats until the end of bg2/start of ToB, where you would pretty much dominate them anyway if you played any sort of arcane caster.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    K->M isn't overly powerful in BG1 (where it'll be a Kensai mostly), but it rapidly becomes stronger in BG2. As @ajwz pointed out, this is mainly due to the fact that mages in general are very, very good in BG2 - the Kensai part simply adds even more damage output, and more consistency.

    If you're worried about dominating a co-op game, you may be better served with another class. Given that your friend is a pure class, maybe you should choose one as well - this makes power much more equal, as dual- and multi-class characters tend to be stronger than pures in general.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    Your friend will have to take care about everything in BG1, because your kensai will have a ridicolous AC.
    Same goes for the first levels after dual-classing to mage.
    So what you will become at middle/end BG2 and ToB will simply compensate for this gap.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Kensais are fine in BG1. An early level dual (less than or equal to level 5) is quite quick to regain in BG1 but it's a lot less OP in late game. That might not be a bad choice for you.
  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I'd dual at 7, since while you won't get your skills back until late BG1, you'll be awesome for all of BG2. You might be somewhat less OP by the endgame, but I think it might be better for the fun factor of playing along the way.
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  • EudaemoniumEudaemonium Member Posts: 3,199
    I tend to prefer Fighter 7 duals for their utility all the way through. I find 13 duals too late for my personal enjoyment. I miss the extra 1/2 APR, but I think it balances out overall.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited May 2013
    Compared to every other fighter it IS really bad at lower levels, where only AC and ranged attack can save your ass.
    Once you manage to put your hands on a Shield Amulet things will get better, but still you will have to play the blitzer role most of the times.

    PS. Anyway I would dual it at 9, if you don't know how to do it fast at lvl13.
    We are talking about a powergaming class, so do it good or don't do it xD
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    well played Mages own pretty much everyone by the time you hit end of BG2/ToB anyway.
    But that very much depends on the strategy you are using.

    For example, lots of players tend to quasi-solo some parts of the game, even when having a full group.
    A player with a Thief CHARNAME will most likely leave the party behind and scout on his own in stealth, disposing of entire groups via backstabbing, traps and hit-and-run tactics. Or, in case of a Mage, scout alone/with a thief and fireball everyone from the distance. Again, while the rest of the group stands idle and waits. Another example would be the spell Sunfire, which scorches everything around you - so keep your allies afar.
    I don't think this would be the case if 2 players are playing.
    Another example might be not of a mage that casts destruction all around him, but specializes on control spells that instill confusion, horror, paralysis, sleep or other effects - not dealing damage, but preparing the enemies for the fighters for an easy kill.

    Also depends on, what other NPCs you are going to have in the group (as you will need a healer and a thief)

    He, as a Blackguard will pretty much dominate whole BG1 and large part of BG2. By the end of BG2->ToB, he will still be useful, just not as much as before.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I don't get the fascination with high level duals. I think they're boring. Even a Kensai 3 -> Mage gets -2 AC, +1 attack and damage, bonus HP and perhaps some minor things I'm forgetting essentially free and virtually straight from the beginning of the game. It won't be meleeing bosses with the poor THAC0 but you can still chunk mobs and it's a free -2 AC all the time.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    The reason for high lvl dual fighters is the extra APR they get at certain levels (+1/2 APR at lvl7, and another +1/2 at level13). APR adds by far the most amount of damage, so if you have ToB in mind, you'll want to dual at those levels.

    Of course, that's purely from the perspective of theoretical power. Personal preference, play style, and various other factors also play a role for most people.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Yes, I know that. I still don't understand how people bother with it, lol.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125
    edited May 2013

    Yes, I know that. I still don't understand how people bother with it, lol.

    Here:

    Personal preference, play style, and various other factors also play a role for most people.

    If you are the kind of player that likes to solo the game with the most difficult settings, install mods to increase it further, etc, then I can assure you that you WILL want to squeeze this same game to get the best advantages.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    make gnome ilusionist/fighter so your friend will just sit while you shred everything to death with magic-tank; D

    if u want less powerfull dual you can go for thief/ilusionist gnome for trap disarming and spells
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    I wouldn't worry about it...the mage half just adds mostly defenses to the mix and you could always toss your friend an IH haste as needed (To be honest, adding mage to kensai, or any fighter to mage is largely a waste of time, IMO)....a pure blackguard will absolutely wreck in melee (better then you could ever hope to achieve, unless you stay pure kensai). If it still seems OP, just set some resting rules, like only resting in inns or when fatigued, and that'll keep your power in check (and much closer to what it SHOULD play like).

    Due to the screwed up caster level, Blackguards do eventually become quite powerful, since they're still basically a single class F/C with slightly weaker spell-capacity (they can pull the same 85% DR trick fighter clerics and Barbarians can), as well as self-buff with DUHM to 25 str, and they're already a warrior type so it's like having a permanently active holy power), and poison weapon and that aura as well.
  • SpaceInvaderSpaceInvader Member Posts: 2,125

    To be honest, adding mage to kensai, or any fighter to mage is largely a waste of time, IMO)....a pure blackguard will absolutely wreck in melee (better then you could ever hope to achieve, unless you stay pure kensai)

    Do we play the same game?
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    any fighter or fighter/mage can solo or gruop play bg1
    so there is no difference there but fighter/mage will do that easily
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    @ZanathKariashi - agree with the part saying that Blackguard can get very powerful. Disagree with the combining Fighter-Mage. It's a cheesy combo. So cheesy, that I don't play it.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited May 2013
    Well, I look at it like this.....I've soloed as everything thing, without cheese...so I know it's do-able....the shear amount of downtime involved for a proper Kensage just doesn't justify the what little power you actually gain (A F/M is much better since you can load up on fighter HLA once you've gotten your 2 useful Epic spells...and the Zerk/Mage can at least save a few spell slots due to their blanket of immunities while enraged....the Kensage brings nothing that another fighter could've brought equal or better, with no restrictions).

    A Kensai is actually weaker overall for being mixed with mage since their extra defenses and aoe are largely wasted...you could've used a plain fighter or Zerker and actually come out stronger (the kensai doesn't really shine unless it stays a single class), while a mage takes a bit longer to reach full power...and since most encounters can be easily blasted through via wands, only a tiny handful of enemies really justify having stronger physical presence (Though the Crimson Dart, later Firetooth (Dagger) can easily handle most magic resistant/immune enemy encounters, especially combined with a str belt or high natural str, generic non-magical darts will rip magic golems apart in like 2 rounds).

    My typical way of handling late game fights is just making simulacrums (which unlike PI, that I refuse to use, actually works correctly) while I pelt the enemy with darts or wand shots, until I'm out of copies, then start on using my spells, if anything is left (assuming of course the battle in question requires more then 1 or 2 wand blasts).
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Could you elaborate on what you mean by "downtime"? How is a K->M worse than a F/M?

    And I don't know what you mean by "little power" - +4 to hit/damage is quite a lot considering weapons have an average damage of what, 20 at *best* (FoA+5)?

    Also, what do you mean by "their AoE is wasted"? What kind of AoE do Kensais get? Do you mean the mage AoE? Why is that wasted? Isn't that exactly what you want from mage spells, AoE?

    I suppose if the game is too easy (low difficulty and few mods), then it doesn't really matter. But once enemies actually start being able to take a pounding, physical (melee) damage is king. Nothing deals damage as consistently and as highly as melee at end game, unless it's large amounts of enemies. And nothing deals melee damage as consistently and with as much resilience and flexibility as a Kensai->Mage.

    If you disagree, I'd like to hear why.
  • LemernisLemernis Member, Moderator Posts: 4,318
    I agree with sentiments above that Fighter/Mage is more satisfying overall. If you multi-class then you might level at a better pace with the Blackguard. The blackguard will be plenty powerful, don't worry about overshadowing him on melee. You'll probably be spellcasting a lot anyway. So I wouldn't be surprised if the Blackguard gets more kills.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited May 2013
    blackguard would lose but haste is AoE ;)

    the most powerfull kensaimage in bg1 is kensai7? that means +2 dmg so it is equal to berserker with rage?
    barbarian/mage with rage +4 str and conc OMG that would tank and deal so much damage it is not even funny
  • SouthpawSouthpaw Member Posts: 2,026
    Luckily, barbarian can't dual-class or multiclass. That'd be overpowered.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    They can with certain mods. Actually, it's conceivable that them not being able to dual is in fact a bug: they can dual in PnP, and they are coded as a fighter kit in BG, not as a separate class (like, say, Sorcerer).
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Southpaw said:

    Luckily, barbarian can't dual-class or multiclass. That'd be overpowered.

    That reminds me, I've always wanted to plan a build for a character to get the highest possible physical damage resistance percentages. I used to think I'd have to pick barbarian, but with dwarvern defender a new possiblity has arisen.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    edited May 2013
    barbarian in bg2 could reach 105% DR legal
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    zur312 said:

    barbarian in bg2 could reach 105% DR legal

    I'd be interested to hear how.
  • zur312zur312 Member Posts: 1,366
    45% natural + 20% defender of eastheaven + 40% HLA
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    ah, but hla's dont count for me - the boosts need to be permanent.
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