Because the Kensai's damage eventually hits +13 per hit. And they a get a ton of Kai uses. They give up the ability to use bracers, which means regular fighters can have +2 damage and +1/2 attack, while berserks get the same damage bonus and total number of attacks a 13 dual Kensai does, AT 9 (which results in a joke amount of downtime vs 1/3 to 3/4 of the game, depending on the number of people in the party).....
I just literally cannot justify mixing a Kensai with anything...they're just too good by themselves (Not a lot of variety, but it gets the job done, just as well as end-game level magic would)....any benefit dualing to mage can be attained via items easily enough (I don't consider PfMW a benefit, because nothing lives long enough for it to matter...even the Ascension hard-mode bosses can be killed effortlessly by just bashing their faces in with pure unadulterated Badassitude (and considering you didn't have any challenge at all till that moment you've got 100s of healing potions if things go awry)). The hardest part of playing a Kensai is prior to getting the boots of speed...after that...the game is a cake walk.
the Barbarian caps at 80%....Their natural resistance stops at 20%. 40% from Hardiness, 20% from DoEH. They can push some of their specific resistances even higher, 50% more blunt from Ronark horn helm, 25% piercing from belt of internal barrier. So, piercing (very common) and blunt (less but still fairly common) actually gain health when fully stacked.
The only class in the game to gain any significant passive abilities are Monks...and they're still worse then basically any other class...except maybe shapeshifters....if the other classes are properly fitted.
80% DR still NOT BAD but pure fighter class is not really that tanky and his tactics consist of attacking or attacking there no real strategy kensai/mage is almost perfect dual
Because the Kensai's damage eventually hits +13 per hit. And they a get a ton of Kai uses. They give up the ability to use bracers, which means regular fighters can have +2 damage and +1/2 attack, while berserks get the same damage bonus and total number of attacks a 13 dual Kensai does, AT 9
This only applies for solo games. In party games, you can simply give the bracers to someone else, and retain most of their value in overall damage output - you can't do the same with the Kensai innate bonuses.
I just literally cannot justify mixing a Kensai with anything...they're just too good by themselves (Not a lot of variety, but it gets the job done, just as well as end-game level magic would)....any benefit dualing to mage can be attained via items easily enough (I don't consider PfMW a benefit, because nothing lives long enough for it to matter...even the Ascension hard-mode bosses can be killed effortlessly by just bashing their faces in with pure unadulterated Badassitude
I find the main benefits of being a mage to be 1) Improved Haste and 2) Stoneskin. These add unequaled value to your offense/defense. Nothing in the game increases your damage as much as IH does, so you want a lot of it in your party - but unlike pure mages, K->M has a steady and consistent damage output. Minor benefits are dispels, AoE, and Timestop - going into TS with IH and Kai will clear out a room full of improved SCSII Fire Giants in seconds. I actually rarely use PfMW, though it's handy to have in a pinch; Stoneskin and an armor spell are usually sufficient, and far longer lasting.
If you find all the "Ascension hard-mode bosses" to be so easy, I suggest upping your difficulty. The final Ascension battle remains to me one of the bigger challenges in my game (with SCSII on maximum settings and Insane level difficulty). I have so far not really found a way to "bash their faces in with pure unadulterated Badassitude" - you rush in there without a plan, and they eat you alive. Same goes for some other battles, like Eclipse.
Kensai->Mages are so good because they combine the utility of arcane spells with a great damage output. While you can certainly make a pure Kensai and pair it with, say, a pure Mage, you'll end up with less of both options. The reason for that is, of course, the power of dual-classes; they are more than just the sum of two halves.
Part of it may be bias due to the way my game is set up - it favors (if not requires) a high number of arcane casters in the party. And Kensai->Mage is the best arcane caster - simply because it is more resilient than a pure mage and has a higher damage output. Your Improved Haste does have to come from somewhere!
Your pure Kensai does have merit, though, and I'm currently evaluating its inclusion into my setup. It's just that they require external buffing, and I'm not sure the lost utility is sufficiently made up for. Either way, it'd be only an addition to my K->Ms, certainly not a replacement.
the Barbarian caps at 80%....Their natural resistance stops at 20%. 40% from Hardiness, 20% from DoEH. They can push some of their specific resistances even higher, 50% more blunt from Ronark horn helm, 25% piercing from belt of internal barrier. So, piercing (very common) and blunt (less but still fairly common) actually gain health when fully stacked.
I never found physical damage to be much of a problem. The only physical attacks that really hurt are backstabs, but those can be avoided in any number of ways. Outside of that, the vast majority of deaths are the result of spellcasting. Not to say that Barbarians aren't good, of course - their large HP pools are actually very useful, and I do use one myself. But don't overrate their physical damage resistance.
if you are really that worried your kensai/mage will overshadow this blackguard go for thief/ilusionist so you will be party mage thief archer backstaber and he will be melee dps that way you have different tasks in the game
Hardiness lasts 1 round per 2 levels; that means at level 24 it's already 2 whole minutes (or 1 with Improved Haste). That's pretty permanent already... ¬_¬
I'm lost at what you have written. The 1 round per 2 levels only counts up to level 20 (even if the Barbarian is level 40). So thats 10 rounds. 10 rounds = 60 seconds (approximately).
I suppose that is true, unless you use mods that extend spell level ranges. My mistake.
Personally I do run these mods, because I feel that capping at 20 gimps spellcasters somewhat. Of course, the change affects enemies as well as friends, which makes things... interesting at times.
And one minute is about 4x the number rounds you need to finish any battle that having 80+% DR would be a boon....
Yes, I totally a agree that IH is bad ass.....yet...there's enough items to have 4 casts per day (3 4 round casts from Gaxx, 1 15 round cast from the amulet of the cheetah (also raises your movement rate by 2 and stacks with boots of speed), which literally all you need. I never found myself wanting for any buff, since you can gain pretty much any effect or an ability that replicates that effect, via items. And while less efficient, it does give you the freedom to swap in a couple GWW, once you've used up all your Kai's during the IH uses, CS is less useful to a kensai since he already can't miss, no matter the enemy's AC (unless you roll a one) so you have HLA to burn, once you have all the hardiness uses you need (60% (w/ DoEH, 110% blunt, 85% piercing, potentially depending on other gear) for a minute is still quite nice, for battles when there's a lot of heavy damage flying around.
And your point is? The party is just there to watch the show and carry loot anyway (no one but the Bhaalspawn matters if they die...you can revive them easily enough), if it's been proven that you can easily handle a situation solo.
It's a different story if you use appropriately stated (for 2nd edition) characters, who can't as effectively solo due to less then ideal stats, and thus have to use up more slots constantly rather then having freedom to swap items around.
Anyone using a PG character has no reason for a party...it's just an added annoyance to baby sit, vs a more appropriate character who fulfills his class role without completely rendering the group redundant.
A duo, like he's talking about, is more or less two solo characters who just happen to be in the same playthrough, and is still easy enough deal with. There's a TON of great gear that can't be put to use solo, due to a lack of slots to equip it. If he's partnered with a Blackguard, his kensai half is utterly pointless because the blackguard is just plain better then a gimped Kensai with mage spells, especially once he gets up high enough to use his self-buff divine spells....he'd be better off playing a cleric/mage or a pure mage or pure cleric, which actually supports the duo concept, with plenty of buffs to go around and without stepping into his friends area of expertise...you could technically do the same as a Kensage...but you're getting a LOT of downtime for no reason, when you end up playing mostly as a caster.
I admit that the OP's case is a little special. But in general, having a solo character with the party just tagging along for the ride as dead weight is not the optimal way to do things. Since enemy HP don't scale with party size, it is much more beneficial to maximize party damage output.
Arguably, the same is true for the OP and his friend. You'll want to have some buffs to throw around, but you'll also want to be able to dish out. In terms of efficiency, this usually means a Fighter/X combination in either dual- or multi-class. My argument is that arcane casters bring better buffs (Stoneskin, Haste, Spell Immunity) and better utility (dispels, Time Stop) than divine casters; obviously you'd like both if you can, and with a Blackguard in the group I suppose you can. The best arcane caster is a Kensai->Mage. And once again, if you think there is a better one, I'd like to hear why. The K->M is essentially a mage with more HP and the ability to deal most of its damage in physical form. Spell damage just can't compete in that regard.
Yes, you do have some downtime when you dual. But keep in mind that you are 1) dualing into mage, so you get lots of XP from scrolls, and 2) the OP is playing in a 2-char party, so you will gain XP much, much more quickly. I think that a small period of downtime (in which you are far from useless, just a little weak) is well worth the benefits you gain in the end.
K>M is the worst class because it doesn't gain ANY BONUSES worth the penalties it suffers, and it's "bonuses" are actually weaker then what a zerker or F/M multi could do.
I actually recommend the multi, if they're dead set on playing a F/M since that way, they're rocking full strength from the beginning, without having a weak ass kensai that can't do shite till until 1/3 or so of the way into the sequel, making the BG do the lions share of the work through the saga.
A Kensage brings NOTHING useful to the table....they bring a bunch of penalties, and a few minor bonuses that a zerker, plain fighter, or F/M multi can easily do equal or better. The Zerk has the early game advantage due to being able to dual at 9 and still equal a 13 dual kensage (and their rage saves spell slots), and will always be better then Kensage, while the F/M multi absolutely stomps them all in the end game (as well as the VERY beginning) due to access to fighter HLA, rather then wasting them all on a bunch of spells that will never get used, since IA is the only epic spell actually worth casting (or also energy blades for a pure mage or C/M), which also means you can take GWW and save IH's for the blackguard, once they hit epic levels...and since they gain HLA based on total xp rather then level based, a multi gains them at the same time a non-multi would, but will ultimately end up with like 8 more then a dual would. Meaning you'd have HLA to burn on silly crap like greater deathblow + some darts.
And a 7 dualed Kensai is just a utter waste of time, so BG1 will be 2 melee guys with no spells, one of which can't use armor, ranged, or bracers and will be a magnet for all those bows using enemies that BG1 so favors.
All thread long I've been wanting to say this, but it never seemed to be topical:
How about a Swashbuckler -> Mage?
You can do as many Swashie levels as you want and get full thief skill point progression. It is, by default, already like being a Fighter/Thief but single classed. You take care of the party's need for a thief. Then when you're ready you can switch over to mage. And since you're using the thief progression you can afford to wait a level or two later perhaps than you'd normally wait for a fighter.
Since your buddy is already playing a Blackguard you don't need to be a supreme melee badarse.
Thanks for the responses everyone, i'm weighing up the pros and cons.
Swashbuckler is interesting to me. Staying primary mage but bringing some extra utility to the party sounds good (while also being half decent at swinging a long-sword).
If I do duel class when would be the optimal time to do so as a swashbuckler? what skills would I need and at what %? How much would duel classing slow down mage progression?
Ok, I'm not a master of dual classing and leveling here. I'm just looking at the chart:
Level 10 is the last level you gain hit dice. So you get a few extra d6 if you stay rogue til 10. That is also a level when you get Swashie Bonuses (1, 5, 10, etc.)
Level 9 you gain THAC0 (level 10 has the same THAC0 as level 9) It also gives you better saves (level 10 has the same saves as 9). You've also gotten almost all your thief health (9d6).
Level 8 is the last proficiency point you gain if you wanna dual class at a reasonably low level (next one is at level 12 which is a bit far away. You'll get 4 total so you could put like, two in longswords and two in dual wielding or something along those lines.)
Level 6 or 7 is about as early as you could Dual to Mage. Your THAC0 betters at 7 so you might wanna go to 7 even if you have all the skills you really want at 6.
As you can see just going by the thief tables and Swashie Bonuses you have some options.
Someone else can tell you about the XP differences but with how fast rogues level up I think you could probably swing 10 levels if you really wanted to make the most of your swashbuckler kit.
As for skills:
Nothing replaces Find Traps. Its the most important thief skill.
Open Locks is a matter of convenience. You can smash open locks or use the knock spell, but its so much easier just to pick locks and it saves spell slots dedicated to Knock.
Nothing replaces Pick Pocket. There's a lot of nice stuff to lift off people if you know who to steal from. Pick Pocket is the only skill that benefits from being higher than 100. (Don't raise any skill over 250 or it wraps around. They may or may not have fixed this.)
Set Traps would be AMAZING if you were hitting epic levels. As it is you can ignore it.
Detect Illusion can be awesome. Its pretty situational in the first game but it gets better in the second game when there are more spellcasters throwing around more illusions that need dispelling.
And since you can't backstab, and will be able to cast invisibility, you don't need any of the stealth skills.
swash is not really good in bg1 levels because he get max +2 dmg you can do better just dualing 2berserker/mage with berserker it is 2 dmg and lot of resists and it is really fast
Probably 10.....11 mage isn't too bad, and you'd get 3 total extra AC, and +2 hit/damage. And a reasonably amount of skill points to cover the important stuff....
Though again, a multiclass would probably be more useful, since you'd have full strength from the start, unless you're just dead set on being a human.
A T/M could backstab reasonably well, and could cover the utility and spell-casting aspects, and still manage a decent melee showing, but without completely rendering your friend redundant (take out or weaken a powerful enemy with a backstab and then move into ranged support mode, while they clean up the tougher enemies, would be the ideal way to play). And you'd get both mage and thief HLA...which the same applies as to the F/M...a mage really only needs 1 mage HLA, unless they're single class (Energy blades as well)...which opens up UAI and epic traps, which are basically just 7-9th level spells that are slightly trickier to use, allowing to you to save your actual spells for encounters where scouting and then setting a few traps to lure enemies into isn't possible.
The only thing I really hate about a swashy is that...well.they suck at low levels...they're one of those classes that really benefits from staying single class (They can actually out fight a fighter at high level, using dual-speed weapons, only a pure Kensai does better in raw damage, but the swashy has better defenses). You don't get enough pips to really handle things, and you lose backstab...which...I just can never justify the loss of backstab....it's just that powerful, and by the time you get to where a ton of enemies are immune, you traps, spells, and thac0 are good enough to compensate their reduced usage.
You'd want 100 locks, traps, illusions (a MUST, since you want to pack 6th level full of improved haste, instead of Truesight), and possibly set traps (handy, but not really necessary, since you won't get enough/strong enough to be more then an annoyance), but If memory serves you'd need..about 13 levels to hit them all.
@ZanathKariashi Seriously I don't understand what kind of game you are playing at... In my version of BG, spellcasters (single or dual/multiclass) are the strongest characters you can possibly do. More specifically I think: Sorcerer > Berserk/Mage > Kensai/Mage > F/M (normal multiclass or gnome F/Illusionist) > Swashbuckler/Mage > Normal or kitted Mage > Blade > the rest. You said you are used to solo the game, then try to solo it wih SCSII installed and tell me how your Kensai with +13 to thac0/damage will be not even able to touch a single Lich. The vanilla game is a piece of cake, but with mods that improve the AI/stats of the enemies you will need something more than a mere fighter. As regards the Kensai/Mage effectiveness: Kensai lvl40 < Mage lvl31, so Kensai lvl13/Mage lvl28 > Kensai lvl40. Simple as that. You shouldn't think "What fighting ability is my Kensai going to lose if I dual-class into Mage?" but instead "What benefits my Mage is gonna get if I give it 13 (9, 7, whatever) Kensai levels?"
At what point, in this discussion, did he mention ANY MODS, aside from using EE and eventually EE2?
There are TOO MANY friggin' mods out there for me to tailor my advice to, so if they don't tell me specifically which mods they're using, I'm going to ASSUME, they're playing non-modded or using Ascension hard-mode encounters.
And yes..actually my Kensai does kill SCSII Liches just as easily as non-SCSII liches. Same tactic works just fine, and there's enough of a window between PfMWs to instant kill them with IMoD, which is always my weapon of choice for dealing with undead of any sort. The only spell they have that can threaten my Kensai is imprisonment (since it ignores MR), and as long as I stay out of melee range until I move in for the kill, they're no threat at all.
I actually don't use many mods at all lately though, aside from Ascension, since I've pretty much stopped powergaming my runs, at least where stats are concerned (meta-knowledge is too hard to ignore completely)....I just roll once, and take the roll as is and make due no matter how bad it is. Hasn't stopped me solo'ing however...or doing TotSC xp capped BG2 runs.
sorcerers can cast more spells per rest but they don't own in melee like duals/multis with fighters they are really good casters just without melee possibilities maybe even the best pure casters because arguments wild mage vs sorcerer vs edwin is just ridiculous and if you don't know spells it is better not to pick sorc
Hasn't stopped me solo'ing however...or doing TotSC xp capped BG2 runs.
explain a little more becaues i am curious. solo? custom team? party with npc? you are probably playing fighter/ilusionist or 7fighter/mage for scrolls etc.?
Not to get in the way of a good debate, but why is sorcerer at the top of your list? I haven't heard much said at all about that class.
Because they can cast all the spells you could ever need to finish the game at whatever difficulty and with whatever mod. At higher level they can use Wish to refill their spells, without breaking a sweat. @zur312 They don't even need to melee since, if spells aren't enough, they can summon 5 Mordekai's Sword (or a Planar), haste them and let them chunk everything in their way. Obviously you have to know what spells to pick and what you are doing. But really, there is no comparison with other classes in terms of raw power.
Yeah, as biased as I am towards mages, given how limited in scope BG is, a sorcerer really does reign supreme (Wild mages are a strong contender, but their inherent randomness gives the sorc's consistency and flexibility an edge...still fun to play though if you're feeling bored, since it removes an element of control and adds some excitement back into the game).
With proper spell picks, you can cover any and all situations throughout the saga (mostly due to most spells being useless or redundant, making the sorcs limited selection a non-issue), and since they don't memorize, you can more readily adapt to unexpected changes in battle, rather then being stuck with what you thought you'd need.
As above, if you haven't burned through your 9th level already, you can spam Wish till you get the Spells restored result, which gives effectively limitless spells.
K>M is the worst class because it doesn't gain ANY BONUSES worth the penalties it suffers, and it's "bonuses" are actually weaker then what a zerker or F/M multi could do.
I see where the problem lies now. First of all, the K->M only has one single penalty, and that is not being able to use gloves/bracers. Everything else is completely irrelevant if you are a mage. And as I pointed out earlier, since you can simply give the good gloves/bracers to other people (and there are only a few of them in the game anyway), you retain their bonus for overall damage.
What you DO get however is a *significant* damage increase. I am not only talking about the +4 hit/+4 damage (if you dual at 13, and you always should in BG2/ToB), I am also talking about Kai. At high APR levels, Kai is nothing short of ridiculous. Keep in mind that damage isn't very high, numbers-wise. The best weapon in the game (FoA+5) has an average damage of just under 20. +4 innate bonus to that is already a 20% increase, Kai adds even more. This is not something you can just brush off as irrelevant!
As for the alternatives... F/M has no real bonus except access to fighter HLAs. While these are nice to have, they do come at significant cost: you have lower mage levels, and thus less mage spells (plus delayed access to higher levels). In fact, fighter levels beyond 13 don't add much at all, as it's only a very slight HP and THAC0 increase, while mage levels are much more valuable due to their continued spell progression almost all the way to the end. Of course, a F/M does reach very high levels *if* the party is very small. In that scenario, it can actually compete with a K->M. Still... at endgame levels, most mobs are immune to critical strikes, and your THAC0 allows you to hit on almost every attack - this weakens the Critical Strike HLA. With the proper setup, you reach a natural 5 APR, or 10 under Improved Haste - this weakens the Greater Whirlwind HLA. And being a mage, you negate almost all physical damage done to you through Stoneskin or, in a pinch, PfMW - this weakens the Hardiness HLA. So in the end, all you really do is trade higher mage levels, +4dmg/hit, and Kai for slightly more HP. Not the best trade, in my opinion.
I actually recommend the multi, if they're dead set on playing a F/M since that way, they're rocking full strength from the beginning, without having a weak ass kensai that can't do shite till until 1/3 or so of the way into the sequel, making the BG do the lions share of the work through the saga.
You are grossly misrepresenting here. With a 2-person party and scroll-scribing, you will in fact regain your levels VERY fast - way earlier than 1/3 into the game. Also, you are not a "weak ass kensai that can't do shite" by any means. Even as a low level mage, you quickly gain access to buffs, and several offensive spells. You are right of course in that you won't be as powerful during that time as the other guy - this is a trade-off situation. Reduced power during the easy parts of the game vs. increased power during the not-so-easy parts of the game.
IA is the only epic spell actually worth casting (or also energy blades for a pure mage or C/M), which also means you can take GWW and save IH's for the blackguard, once they hit epic levels...and since they gain HLA based on total xp rather then level based, a multi gains them at the same time a non-multi would, but will ultimately end up with like 8 more then a dual would. Meaning you'd have HLA to burn on silly crap like greater deathblow + some darts.
Actually, I find Dragon's Breath to be the best epic level spell, since it's a high-damage AoE spell that ignores magic resistance. IA has its uses, mainly for chaining Horrid Wiltings, but I don't find myself using it as frequently as DB simply because it requires time to set up. HW-spam is really only good in heavy AoE scenarios, and I rarely find myself in those. As for the effectiveness of fighter HLAs, see my argument above.
And a 7 dualed Kensai is just a utter waste of time, so BG1 will be 2 melee guys with no spells, one of which can't use armor, ranged, or bracers and will be a magnet for all those bows using enemies that BG1 so favors.
This I agree with. Finding a combination that is good for both BG1 *and* BG2 favors certain combinations, namely multi-class or "hybrid" classes such as paladins, which bring both spells and physical capabilities from the get-go. A K->M is really a BG2 character, and you don't ever want to dual it before 13. This means that for BG1, it will be rather weak - it's still doable, but not as good by any stretch as the alternative F/M.
While I still didn't hear anything to convince me that K->M is not better than the alternatives in general, I do not dispute that there are scenarios in which this does *not* hold true. Additionally, I get the impression that you undervalue the K->M's bonuses simply because your game is too easy, and the inconvenience of having a K->M is not worth the gain for you. That is a valid point. In the vanilla game, being a character of "average" power can easily make for a smoother ride, simply because you do not need to min/max in order to beat the game. Heck, the game has been beaten with no-level-up challenges in that state, and fairly easily, too. If you do however dip into the harder mods and crank up the settings, you will find that small differences in power suddenly are a big deal. This still doesn't mean it's impossible to beat the game otherwise (it's not), but there are noticeable and significant advantages. These advantages are still there even without mods - they just aren't as noticeable. If, as you say, you can just "badass through everything", then it doesn't really matter what class you are; almost ANY class can do that in the vanilla game, and hardly break a sweat. But for the sake of a more in-depth discussion, there are certainly objective arguments to support my case. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your rebuttal.
Thanks for the feedback, I have a few questions but I think I have come to a decision.
Okay, this may not be optimal but I think i'm going to go with thief 5 > mage. 5 thief will allow me to take on trap duty and the x3 backstab will allow me to have the occasional bout of combat fun with tensers and mislead in bg2. (As well as the occasional invisibility backstab in bg1). And assuming I'm understanding this right, being such a low exp duel class will mean it will have very little impact on my mage progression and take very little down time. So I can effectively do all the mage stuff at no real negative impact. (beyond not being a sorc or specialist)
Not the strongest thing I can bring to the table, but I can fill in the blanks around the blackguard and pull of some neat high level nonsense late game, as well as mildly fulfill my desire to play with pointy objects.
I have a few questions still,
firstly is this super dumb?
secondly how are weapon proficiencies going to work? how many do I get and where should I put them when?
thirdly can you back stab with melf's/energyblade? I read on this forum somewhere that you can, but that sound suspicious and I haven't been able to google anything backing that up.
Still pretty open to change so let me know your brain thoughts.
Comments
I just literally cannot justify mixing a Kensai with anything...they're just too good by themselves (Not a lot of variety, but it gets the job done, just as well as end-game level magic would)....any benefit dualing to mage can be attained via items easily enough (I don't consider PfMW a benefit, because nothing lives long enough for it to matter...even the Ascension hard-mode bosses can be killed effortlessly by just bashing their faces in with pure unadulterated Badassitude (and considering you didn't have any challenge at all till that moment you've got 100s of healing potions if things go awry)). The hardest part of playing a Kensai is prior to getting the boots of speed...after that...the game is a cake walk.
the Barbarian caps at 80%....Their natural resistance stops at 20%. 40% from Hardiness, 20% from DoEH. They can push some of their specific resistances even higher, 50% more blunt from Ronark horn helm, 25% piercing from belt of internal barrier. So, piercing (very common) and blunt (less but still fairly common) actually gain health when fully stacked.
The only class in the game to gain any significant passive abilities are Monks...and they're still worse then basically any other class...except maybe shapeshifters....if the other classes are properly fitted.
but pure fighter class is not really that tanky and his tactics consist of attacking or attacking there no real strategy
kensai/mage is almost perfect dual
I find the main benefits of being a mage to be 1) Improved Haste and 2) Stoneskin. These add unequaled value to your offense/defense. Nothing in the game increases your damage as much as IH does, so you want a lot of it in your party - but unlike pure mages, K->M has a steady and consistent damage output. Minor benefits are dispels, AoE, and Timestop - going into TS with IH and Kai will clear out a room full of improved SCSII Fire Giants in seconds. I actually rarely use PfMW, though it's handy to have in a pinch; Stoneskin and an armor spell are usually sufficient, and far longer lasting.
If you find all the "Ascension hard-mode bosses" to be so easy, I suggest upping your difficulty. The final Ascension battle remains to me one of the bigger challenges in my game (with SCSII on maximum settings and Insane level difficulty). I have so far not really found a way to "bash their faces in with pure unadulterated Badassitude" - you rush in there without a plan, and they eat you alive. Same goes for some other battles, like Eclipse.
Kensai->Mages are so good because they combine the utility of arcane spells with a great damage output. While you can certainly make a pure Kensai and pair it with, say, a pure Mage, you'll end up with less of both options. The reason for that is, of course, the power of dual-classes; they are more than just the sum of two halves.
Part of it may be bias due to the way my game is set up - it favors (if not requires) a high number of arcane casters in the party. And Kensai->Mage is the best arcane caster - simply because it is more resilient than a pure mage and has a higher damage output. Your Improved Haste does have to come from somewhere!
Your pure Kensai does have merit, though, and I'm currently evaluating its inclusion into my setup. It's just that they require external buffing, and I'm not sure the lost utility is sufficiently made up for. Either way, it'd be only an addition to my K->Ms, certainly not a replacement. I never found physical damage to be much of a problem. The only physical attacks that really hurt are backstabs, but those can be avoided in any number of ways. Outside of that, the vast majority of deaths are the result of spellcasting. Not to say that Barbarians aren't good, of course - their large HP pools are actually very useful, and I do use one myself. But don't overrate their physical damage resistance.
if you are really that worried your kensai/mage will overshadow this blackguard go for thief/ilusionist so you will be party mage thief archer backstaber and he will be melee dps that way you have different tasks in the game
that would at least give something for pure mage over kensai/mage
Personally I do run these mods, because I feel that capping at 20 gimps spellcasters somewhat. Of course, the change affects enemies as well as friends, which makes things... interesting at times.
Yes, I totally a agree that IH is bad ass.....yet...there's enough items to have 4 casts per day (3 4 round casts from Gaxx, 1 15 round cast from the amulet of the cheetah (also raises your movement rate by 2 and stacks with boots of speed), which literally all you need. I never found myself wanting for any buff, since you can gain pretty much any effect or an ability that replicates that effect, via items. And while less efficient, it does give you the freedom to swap in a couple GWW, once you've used up all your Kai's during the IH uses, CS is less useful to a kensai since he already can't miss, no matter the enemy's AC (unless you roll a one) so you have HLA to burn, once you have all the hardiness uses you need (60% (w/ DoEH, 110% blunt, 85% piercing, potentially depending on other gear) for a minute is still quite nice, for battles when there's a lot of heavy damage flying around.
It's a different story if you use appropriately stated (for 2nd edition) characters, who can't as effectively solo due to less then ideal stats, and thus have to use up more slots constantly rather then having freedom to swap items around.
Anyone using a PG character has no reason for a party...it's just an added annoyance to baby sit, vs a more appropriate character who fulfills his class role without completely rendering the group redundant.
A duo, like he's talking about, is more or less two solo characters who just happen to be in the same playthrough, and is still easy enough deal with. There's a TON of great gear that can't be put to use solo, due to a lack of slots to equip it. If he's partnered with a Blackguard, his kensai half is utterly pointless because the blackguard is just plain better then a gimped Kensai with mage spells, especially once he gets up high enough to use his self-buff divine spells....he'd be better off playing a cleric/mage or a pure mage or pure cleric, which actually supports the duo concept, with plenty of buffs to go around and without stepping into his friends area of expertise...you could technically do the same as a Kensage...but you're getting a LOT of downtime for no reason, when you end up playing mostly as a caster.
Arguably, the same is true for the OP and his friend. You'll want to have some buffs to throw around, but you'll also want to be able to dish out. In terms of efficiency, this usually means a Fighter/X combination in either dual- or multi-class. My argument is that arcane casters bring better buffs (Stoneskin, Haste, Spell Immunity) and better utility (dispels, Time Stop) than divine casters; obviously you'd like both if you can, and with a Blackguard in the group I suppose you can. The best arcane caster is a Kensai->Mage. And once again, if you think there is a better one, I'd like to hear why. The K->M is essentially a mage with more HP and the ability to deal most of its damage in physical form. Spell damage just can't compete in that regard.
Yes, you do have some downtime when you dual. But keep in mind that you are 1) dualing into mage, so you get lots of XP from scrolls, and 2) the OP is playing in a 2-char party, so you will gain XP much, much more quickly. I think that a small period of downtime (in which you are far from useless, just a little weak) is well worth the benefits you gain in the end.
I actually recommend the multi, if they're dead set on playing a F/M since that way, they're rocking full strength from the beginning, without having a weak ass kensai that can't do shite till until 1/3 or so of the way into the sequel, making the BG do the lions share of the work through the saga.
A Kensage brings NOTHING useful to the table....they bring a bunch of penalties, and a few minor bonuses that a zerker, plain fighter, or F/M multi can easily do equal or better. The Zerk has the early game advantage due to being able to dual at 9 and still equal a 13 dual kensage (and their rage saves spell slots), and will always be better then Kensage, while the F/M multi absolutely stomps them all in the end game (as well as the VERY beginning) due to access to fighter HLA, rather then wasting them all on a bunch of spells that will never get used, since IA is the only epic spell actually worth casting (or also energy blades for a pure mage or C/M), which also means you can take GWW and save IH's for the blackguard, once they hit epic levels...and since they gain HLA based on total xp rather then level based, a multi gains them at the same time a non-multi would, but will ultimately end up with like 8 more then a dual would. Meaning you'd have HLA to burn on silly crap like greater deathblow + some darts.
And a 7 dualed Kensai is just a utter waste of time, so BG1 will be 2 melee guys with no spells, one of which can't use armor, ranged, or bracers and will be a magnet for all those bows using enemies that BG1 so favors.
How about a Swashbuckler -> Mage?
You can do as many Swashie levels as you want and get full thief skill point progression. It is, by default, already like being a Fighter/Thief but single classed. You take care of the party's need for a thief. Then when you're ready you can switch over to mage. And since you're using the thief progression you can afford to wait a level or two later perhaps than you'd normally wait for a fighter.
Since your buddy is already playing a Blackguard you don't need to be a supreme melee badarse.
Swashbuckler is interesting to me. Staying primary mage but bringing some extra utility to the party sounds good (while also being half decent at swinging a long-sword).
If I do duel class when would be the optimal time to do so as a swashbuckler? what skills would I need and at what %? How much would duel classing slow down mage progression?
Level 10 is the last level you gain hit dice. So you get a few extra d6 if you stay rogue til 10. That is also a level when you get Swashie Bonuses (1, 5, 10, etc.)
Level 9 you gain THAC0 (level 10 has the same THAC0 as level 9) It also gives you better saves (level 10 has the same saves as 9). You've also gotten almost all your thief health (9d6).
Level 8 is the last proficiency point you gain if you wanna dual class at a reasonably low level (next one is at level 12 which is a bit far away. You'll get 4 total so you could put like, two in longswords and two in dual wielding or something along those lines.)
Level 6 or 7 is about as early as you could Dual to Mage. Your THAC0 betters at 7 so you might wanna go to 7 even if you have all the skills you really want at 6.
As you can see just going by the thief tables and Swashie Bonuses you have some options.
Someone else can tell you about the XP differences but with how fast rogues level up I think you could probably swing 10 levels if you really wanted to make the most of your swashbuckler kit.
As for skills:
Nothing replaces Find Traps. Its the most important thief skill.
Open Locks is a matter of convenience. You can smash open locks or use the knock spell, but its so much easier just to pick locks and it saves spell slots dedicated to Knock.
Nothing replaces Pick Pocket. There's a lot of nice stuff to lift off people if you know who to steal from. Pick Pocket is the only skill that benefits from being higher than 100. (Don't raise any skill over 250 or it wraps around. They may or may not have fixed this.)
Set Traps would be AMAZING if you were hitting epic levels. As it is you can ignore it.
Detect Illusion can be awesome. Its pretty situational in the first game but it gets better in the second game when there are more spellcasters throwing around more illusions that need dispelling.
And since you can't backstab, and will be able to cast invisibility, you don't need any of the stealth skills.
you can do better just dualing 2berserker/mage with berserker it is 2 dmg and lot of resists and it is really fast
Though again, a multiclass would probably be more useful, since you'd have full strength from the start, unless you're just dead set on being a human.
A T/M could backstab reasonably well, and could cover the utility and spell-casting aspects, and still manage a decent melee showing, but without completely rendering your friend redundant (take out or weaken a powerful enemy with a backstab and then move into ranged support mode, while they clean up the tougher enemies, would be the ideal way to play). And you'd get both mage and thief HLA...which the same applies as to the F/M...a mage really only needs 1 mage HLA, unless they're single class (Energy blades as well)...which opens up UAI and epic traps, which are basically just 7-9th level spells that are slightly trickier to use, allowing to you to save your actual spells for encounters where scouting and then setting a few traps to lure enemies into isn't possible.
The only thing I really hate about a swashy is that...well.they suck at low levels...they're one of those classes that really benefits from staying single class (They can actually out fight a fighter at high level, using dual-speed weapons, only a pure Kensai does better in raw damage, but the swashy has better defenses). You don't get enough pips to really handle things, and you lose backstab...which...I just can never justify the loss of backstab....it's just that powerful, and by the time you get to where a ton of enemies are immune, you traps, spells, and thac0 are good enough to compensate their reduced usage.
You'd want 100 locks, traps, illusions (a MUST, since you want to pack 6th level full of improved haste, instead of Truesight), and possibly set traps (handy, but not really necessary, since you won't get enough/strong enough to be more then an annoyance), but If memory serves you'd need..about 13 levels to hit them all.
Seriously I don't understand what kind of game you are playing at...
In my version of BG, spellcasters (single or dual/multiclass) are the strongest characters you can possibly do.
More specifically I think:
Sorcerer > Berserk/Mage > Kensai/Mage > F/M (normal multiclass or gnome F/Illusionist) > Swashbuckler/Mage > Normal or kitted Mage > Blade > the rest.
You said you are used to solo the game, then try to solo it wih SCSII installed and tell me how your Kensai with +13 to thac0/damage will be not even able to touch a single Lich.
The vanilla game is a piece of cake, but with mods that improve the AI/stats of the enemies you will need something more than a mere fighter.
As regards the Kensai/Mage effectiveness: Kensai lvl40 < Mage lvl31, so Kensai lvl13/Mage lvl28 > Kensai lvl40. Simple as that.
You shouldn't think "What fighting ability is my Kensai going to lose if I dual-class into Mage?"
but instead "What benefits my Mage is gonna get if I give it 13 (9, 7, whatever) Kensai levels?"
There are TOO MANY friggin' mods out there for me to tailor my advice to, so if they don't tell me specifically which mods they're using, I'm going to ASSUME, they're playing non-modded or using Ascension hard-mode encounters.
And yes..actually my Kensai does kill SCSII Liches just as easily as non-SCSII liches. Same tactic works just fine, and there's enough of a window between PfMWs to instant kill them with IMoD, which is always my weapon of choice for dealing with undead of any sort. The only spell they have that can threaten my Kensai is imprisonment (since it ignores MR), and as long as I stay out of melee range until I move in for the kill, they're no threat at all.
I actually don't use many mods at all lately though, aside from Ascension, since I've pretty much stopped powergaming my runs, at least where stats are concerned (meta-knowledge is too hard to ignore completely)....I just roll once, and take the roll as is and make due no matter how bad it is. Hasn't stopped me solo'ing however...or doing TotSC xp capped BG2 runs.
they are really good casters just without melee possibilities
maybe even the best pure casters because arguments wild mage vs sorcerer vs edwin is just ridiculous
and if you don't know spells it is better not to pick sorc
for example
7th level
sorcerer can cast 6/6/4
specjalist mage 5/4/3/2
edwin 6/5/4/3
1st/2nd/3rd/4th level spells
solo? custom team? party with npc?
you are probably playing fighter/ilusionist or 7fighter/mage for scrolls etc.?
At higher level they can use Wish to refill their spells, without breaking a sweat. @zur312 They don't even need to melee since, if spells aren't enough, they can summon 5 Mordekai's Sword (or a Planar), haste them and let them chunk everything in their way.
Obviously you have to know what spells to pick and what you are doing. But really, there is no comparison with other classes in terms of raw power.
With proper spell picks, you can cover any and all situations throughout the saga (mostly due to most spells being useless or redundant, making the sorcs limited selection a non-issue), and since they don't memorize, you can more readily adapt to unexpected changes in battle, rather then being stuck with what you thought you'd need.
As above, if you haven't burned through your 9th level already, you can spam Wish till you get the Spells restored result, which gives effectively limitless spells.
What you DO get however is a *significant* damage increase. I am not only talking about the +4 hit/+4 damage (if you dual at 13, and you always should in BG2/ToB), I am also talking about Kai. At high APR levels, Kai is nothing short of ridiculous. Keep in mind that damage isn't very high, numbers-wise. The best weapon in the game (FoA+5) has an average damage of just under 20. +4 innate bonus to that is already a 20% increase, Kai adds even more. This is not something you can just brush off as irrelevant!
As for the alternatives... F/M has no real bonus except access to fighter HLAs. While these are nice to have, they do come at significant cost: you have lower mage levels, and thus less mage spells (plus delayed access to higher levels). In fact, fighter levels beyond 13 don't add much at all, as it's only a very slight HP and THAC0 increase, while mage levels are much more valuable due to their continued spell progression almost all the way to the end. Of course, a F/M does reach very high levels *if* the party is very small. In that scenario, it can actually compete with a K->M. Still... at endgame levels, most mobs are immune to critical strikes, and your THAC0 allows you to hit on almost every attack - this weakens the Critical Strike HLA. With the proper setup, you reach a natural 5 APR, or 10 under Improved Haste - this weakens the Greater Whirlwind HLA. And being a mage, you negate almost all physical damage done to you through Stoneskin or, in a pinch, PfMW - this weakens the Hardiness HLA. So in the end, all you really do is trade higher mage levels, +4dmg/hit, and Kai for slightly more HP. Not the best trade, in my opinion. You are grossly misrepresenting here. With a 2-person party and scroll-scribing, you will in fact regain your levels VERY fast - way earlier than 1/3 into the game. Also, you are not a "weak ass kensai that can't do shite" by any means. Even as a low level mage, you quickly gain access to buffs, and several offensive spells. You are right of course in that you won't be as powerful during that time as the other guy - this is a trade-off situation. Reduced power during the easy parts of the game vs. increased power during the not-so-easy parts of the game.
Actually, I find Dragon's Breath to be the best epic level spell, since it's a high-damage AoE spell that ignores magic resistance. IA has its uses, mainly for chaining Horrid Wiltings, but I don't find myself using it as frequently as DB simply because it requires time to set up. HW-spam is really only good in heavy AoE scenarios, and I rarely find myself in those. As for the effectiveness of fighter HLAs, see my argument above. This I agree with. Finding a combination that is good for both BG1 *and* BG2 favors certain combinations, namely multi-class or "hybrid" classes such as paladins, which bring both spells and physical capabilities from the get-go. A K->M is really a BG2 character, and you don't ever want to dual it before 13. This means that for BG1, it will be rather weak - it's still doable, but not as good by any stretch as the alternative F/M.
While I still didn't hear anything to convince me that K->M is not better than the alternatives in general, I do not dispute that there are scenarios in which this does *not* hold true. Additionally, I get the impression that you undervalue the K->M's bonuses simply because your game is too easy, and the inconvenience of having a K->M is not worth the gain for you. That is a valid point. In the vanilla game, being a character of "average" power can easily make for a smoother ride, simply because you do not need to min/max in order to beat the game. Heck, the game has been beaten with no-level-up challenges in that state, and fairly easily, too.
If you do however dip into the harder mods and crank up the settings, you will find that small differences in power suddenly are a big deal. This still doesn't mean it's impossible to beat the game otherwise (it's not), but there are noticeable and significant advantages. These advantages are still there even without mods - they just aren't as noticeable. If, as you say, you can just "badass through everything", then it doesn't really matter what class you are; almost ANY class can do that in the vanilla game, and hardly break a sweat. But for the sake of a more in-depth discussion, there are certainly objective arguments to support my case. If you disagree, I'd like to hear your rebuttal.
Okay, this may not be optimal but I think i'm going to go with thief 5 > mage. 5 thief will allow me to take on trap duty and the x3 backstab will allow me to have the occasional bout of combat fun with tensers and mislead in bg2. (As well as the occasional invisibility backstab in bg1). And assuming I'm understanding this right, being such a low exp duel class will mean it will have very little impact on my mage progression and take very little down time. So I can effectively do all the mage stuff at no real negative impact. (beyond not being a sorc or specialist)
Not the strongest thing I can bring to the table, but I can fill in the blanks around the blackguard and pull of some neat high level nonsense late game, as well as mildly fulfill my desire to play with pointy objects.
I have a few questions still,
firstly is this super dumb?
secondly how are weapon proficiencies going to work? how many do I get and where should I put them when?
thirdly can you back stab with melf's/energyblade? I read on this forum somewhere that you can, but that sound suspicious and I haven't been able to google anything backing that up.
Still pretty open to change so let me know your brain thoughts.