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Staff-saint? Thoughts?

lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
I've had this character concept for some time, a kensai using quarterstaff exclusively. At lvl 1, quarterstaff++ two handed weapon++, and another pip to quarterstaves at lvl 3, 6, 9.

I find the idea of a skilled character only equipped with a staff laying down beating on baddies and monsters of all sorts, FUN!

Pros:
+Quarterstaff has a reach, so a kensai can inflict pain just behind a full-plate mail armored tank.
+Crushing type is the best damage type, resisted by few enemies and armor types.
+Aule's staff+3 is easy to obtain and can hit anything in BG:EE
+Two handed weapon style gives critical hit bonus:a kensai with more criticals is always good
+Staves are fast enough, with two handed style and kensai bonuses, it becomes shockingly fast!

Cons:
-Low base damage, 1d6+3 of Aule's staff versus 1d10+2 of Spider's Bane.
-No dual-wielding so no extra attack. But grand mastery may compensate.
-No single-weapon style for extra AC bonus. (which a kensai always needs)

Do you think it is feasible or fun? Any thoughts? ^_^
Post edited by lunar on
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Comments

  • Aron740Aron740 Member Posts: 153
    Sounds intresting!
    I will make a test party with one right now :)
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    It will work fine. You might want to put some points into halberds or two handed swords at some point. Even if just because you can't put anymore into staves. It'll let you pull a backup weapon if you run up against something your staff can't hurt. I might suggest halberds as there are quite a few realllly good ones in BG2 and none of the NPCs really do halberds. At that point you'll prolly have staves grandmastered anyway so you gotta stick those points somewhere.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Oh~ And another thing: As soon as you get some spending money work your way north to Ulgoth's Beard and get the +3 Quarterstaff. Since you can't wear armor as a Kensai you can think of it as an investment towards your good health. The Cloak of Displacement is a good investment as well since you don't wanna be pincushioned on the way to the fight.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Kensai can turn any weapon they can wield into Instant-Death Sticks.


    Bah, Kensai don't need AC, they need speed. While it's rough till you get your hands on boots of speed (potions of speed and haste spells can help), after that, everything dies before it becomes a threat, and the increased movement speed, range of 2, and 0 weapon speed mean you can kill strong melee enemies while staying out of reach the whole fight, mages and archers are just dead if you get within melee range.
  • MoomintrollMoomintroll Member Posts: 1,498
    Go for it. I had a kensai specialising in staves and spears, was a blast.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    Sounds awesome!
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Heh, thanks for the encouragaments, I created a human kensai, and gonna try it out! Dwarf or halfling would be more powerful thanks to saving throw bonuses, but I find one of the small folk wielding a quarterstaff that skillfully hillarious. :-p
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    Quartersteaves are actually pretty decent weapons, while they don't really match the raw damage of greatswords or halberds for 2 handed weaponry... They do crushing damage, which is always useful to have.
  • mylegbigmylegbig Member Posts: 292
    I thought about doing the same with spears. Never got around to it though.
  • mrdeluxemrdeluxe Member Posts: 98
    I did that once: a half-orc pacifist kensai that shun away swords in hopes of preventing the spill of blood, attempting to injure and neutralize his opponents rather than killing them.

    However, with 20 STR, 19 DEX and 20 CON plus a Quarter Staff +3, blood was spilled quickly and often! :)

    Oh, and 3 words for you: Staff of Striking. Sarevok doesn't stand a chance! :D
  • dac0152dac0152 Member Posts: 54
    I'm currently doing this with a Kensai/Druid build through BGT. It's pretty great, as you can pick up a Staff +3 in BG1 and very early grab the Staff +4 from Adventurer's Mart. Staff of the Woodlands should be pretty awesome too later on since it gives permanent Barkskin.
  • TressetTresset Member, Moderator Posts: 8,268
    This was my first idea when I first thought of using a kensai. I never actually did it but I imagine it would work very well, especially with the staff of the ram.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Had little time to play, but the moment Carbos attacked, and my guy (using AI script) instantly smacked him with his staff, doing 18 damage with a critical hit! (roll:19) Carbos never got a chance to come close and attack with his dagger, and was chunked before I knew what happened. A good start! :-)
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    Haha! That's great.
  • SCARY_WIZARDSCARY_WIZARD Member Posts: 1,438
    I really like the idea, and I really like your work you showed! Best of luck! ...seconding the suggestion to tote around another weapon. Probably a halberd.
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    I dunno if a 2nd weapon is all that much required, and if you have a modified XP cap, you could also upon reaching grandmastery possibly dual-class into Thief... As Quartersteaves are able to backstab it would quite possibly make a Kensai/Thief deadly.
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 927
    It will work great!

    I'm curious: how/why do you list dual weapons as an advantage of Kensai, and also say the Kensai needs Single Weapon bonus?
  • KloroxKlorox Member Posts: 927
    Kaltzor said:

    I dunno if a 2nd weapon is all that much required, and if you have a modified XP cap, you could also upon reaching grandmastery possibly dual-class into Thief... As Quartersteaves are able to backstab it would quite possibly make a Kensai/Thief deadly.

    You can still get GM in staff in BGEE vanilla: Kensai to level 7, dual to Thief, stick the 5th point into Staff proficiency why Thief hits level 8.

    I don't know why everybody gets so hard about GM... The bonuses aren't really that great, since the BG2 engine nerfed GM.
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Klorox said:

    It will work great!

    I'm curious: how/why do you list dual weapons as an advantage of Kensai, and also say the Kensai needs Single Weapon bonus?

    Because either single weapon or dual-wielding is the more common kensai builds. Dual-wielding for extra attacks and it is wicked cool. Or some people go for single weapon style for bonus AC and critical chance. Two handed kensai seemed a little off..but I see it can be surprisingly effective!

  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    Klorox said:

    Kaltzor said:

    I dunno if a 2nd weapon is all that much required, and if you have a modified XP cap, you could also upon reaching grandmastery possibly dual-class into Thief... As Quartersteaves are able to backstab it would quite possibly make a Kensai/Thief deadly.

    You can still get GM in staff in BGEE vanilla: Kensai to level 7, dual to Thief, stick the 5th point into Staff proficiency why Thief hits level 8.

    I don't know why everybody gets so hard about GM... The bonuses aren't really that great, since the BG2 engine nerfed GM.
    True grandmastery was something else, though. AFAIK, BG:EE uses a grandmastery rule in between BG1 (very powerful) and BG2 one (nerfed down)

  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    LOL @ staff-saint - such a wrong connotations.

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    This can't end well :D
  • lunarlunar Member Posts: 3,460
    IkMarc said:

    LOL @ staff-saint - such a wrong connotations.

    Image and video hosting by TinyPic

    This can't end well :D

    Oo! I never thought about unfourtunate implications! And I usually feel proud for myself about having a dirty mind. ^^

  • I don't think there's much need for a second weapon in BGEE, unless you're running with a party that likes to throw out AoE's and so need a ranged option (which throwing axes can fill nicely for a Kensai). In BG2, the one thing you don't get on a quarterstaff is extra elemental damage, so having a backup weapon for disrupting spellcasting (especially through stoneskins) might be useful.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited June 2013
    The reason for the 2nd weapon is due to Improved Haste, that's 2 extra attacks, which for a kensai, is worth like 4 attacks for lesser characters, and allows you to get full benefit of your kai, unlike GWW, which only allows half a round of Kai, instead of the full 1 1/2 rounds.

    BG:EE uses Corrected TRUE Grandmastery....BG1's grandmastery had the correct chart, but was applying the bonus attacks wrong. GM is supposed to grant 1 total attack extra, but someone misread the chart and was giving it 1 1/2 attacks instead.


    And don't get me started on just how wrong proficiency system is...oh too late...

    Putting additional pips is part of class advancement, not a class feature. Therefore if you dual-away from a warrior class, you can only place a maximum of * in a weapon. (BG 1 (Vanilla) actually did this part correctly).

    (When a multiclass levels up, he's only supposed to be able to specialize with pips gained from his fighter levels only...his other classes' pips can only be used to make things proficient).

    But it goes further. GM is supposed to exclusive to single class, kitless fighters. (if you aren't using the GM rules, fighter kits, paladin/rangers, and multiclasses can't specialize AT ALL, since specialization becomes the fighter exclusive instead)

    X>Fighter duals, multiclasses, Kitted fighters, and non-fighter warriors are limited to specialization (**), unless a kit specifically says otherwise.

    And the archer is the only kit I've found that does (It's pretty much identical to the one in BG, except it's a fighter kit that rangers can optionally use, but keeps the same rules regardless). It allows putting up to *** in bows, instead of just **, but can only be proficient in other weapon types. They also do not gain additional base attacks when leveling.

    (In PnP Bows and X-Bows do not benefit from bonus attacks from specialization or from warrior levels, but can benefit from magical bonus attacks from speed enchanted weapons or haste spells or effects).

    (Specialization also works differently in PnP for bows/X-bows then it does for other weapons. 1. *** (Mastery) is the MAXIMUM, not even GM eligible fighters can go over ***. 2. Specialization (**) doesn't give extra attacks, it just removes the penalty for firing at targets less then 10 ft away or targets in engaged in melee with allies (*** removes the bonus an attacker gets when striking at a bow wielding character with melee), and 3. The bonus damage only applies to targets within 15 ft.).

    Instead of gaining a general 1/2 attack at 7 and 13, archers gain a full attack at just 7, but it only applies to attacks with bows (JUST bows). They also gain the ability to get an additional attack (4 total base) by prepping themselves for rapid fire (takes 1 round), that lasts until they move (again only works with bows). And their extra attacks + hit/damage require them to wear armor with no better then 6 base AC, since it's otherwise too bulky to fire as quickly or precisely as needed.

    The Kensai sort of does...they're limited to specialization, but choose one of their specialized weapons at creation (they're required to specialize in at least 1 weapon at creation) to be their favored weapon, which gains a free 3rd pip (Mastery). And their kai and hit/damage bonuses only apply to attacks made with their mastered weapon type, and only when they're unarmored (bracers that provide armor however ARE allowed (and are specifically mentioned as a good idea for an aspiring kensai to pick up) as the magic field doesn't interfere with their combat style which is heavily reliant on precise movements and strikes).
  • francofranco Member Posts: 507
    @lunar. I think your description of the staff-saint has managed to put an image in our minds, "a kensai using quarterstaff exclusively, beating on baddies and monsters of all sorts." That image in the gamer's head is what I think it really takes to introduce a successful class. I've never played a Kensai, but now I want to play this one.
  • HempoHempo Member Posts: 12
    Klorox said:

    Kaltzor said:



    I don't know why everybody gets so hard about GM... The bonuses aren't really that great, since the BG2 engine nerfed GM.

    It's called Grand Mastery, that's well enough for me!
  • IkMarcIkMarc Member Posts: 552
    franco said:

    @lunar. I think your description of the staff-saint has managed to put an image in our minds, "a kensai using quarterstaff exclusively, beating on baddies and monsters of all sorts." That image in the gamer's head is what I think it really takes to introduce a successful class. I've never played a Kensai, but now I want to play this one.

    Then dual it to thief and you have one of the most powerful builds in the saga
  • SenashSenash Member Posts: 405
    edited June 2013
    I did this once in BG2. After completing a pilgrimage where I got so attached to a simple staff I cut for mayself along the way, I created an elf kensai specializing in staves. Well, I basically didn't use anything else... But got a bit bored with it (I did a kensai run before, and my party composition was familiar too, so it wasn't because the staff), so I took it until Underdark, and then stopped before the mind flayer dungeon (always hated that part).
    It's not bad. The feeling is quite cool. Bashing in everyone's skull with a stick can be entertaining...

    In ToB you will even get Staff of the Ram, which is insanly powerful. Until then, yeah, you do a bit less dmg than other kensai, but that's still a LOT. If it's not about powergaming, and you like the picture in your mind, then don't give a rat's ass about what others might say and just do it!

    EDIT:
    Oh yeah, in BGEE: Aule' staff is cool too, or if you would like to have a bit more dmg, there's Staff Spear from Durlag's Tower: 1d8+3 with +2 to hit. One less to hit, but a bigger damage die. I think it might be preferable when using Kai ability. And as it has been said before me: Staff of Striking... I don't even have to start elaborating that, do I? Charges on it can even be recharged in shops I believe.
  • CaptRoryCaptRory Member Posts: 1,660
    A big benefit of using a staff in BG1:
    It won't break on you.

    Because of how random breakage is this may or may not be an issue for you. But not having to carry around half a dozen swords til you find magic copies can be handy. Especially for new players. I know where to go pretty much to outfit my whole group in non-breaking weapons. Someone new to the game would have a hard time with that even following a guide.
  • PugPugPugPug Member Posts: 560
    I kind of feel like the 1d6 of the staff represents the wielder using it like a mage -- thwacking it like an old man beating an unruly teenager with his cane. It's too bad it can't become a 1d10 in a warrior's hands.

    Still, I tried this with a fighter in PnP, and it was fun to visualize. I say go for it, though the animations may not cooperate with your concept.
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