Barbarian vs Berserker: which is better?
Klorox
Member Posts: 927
Consider no cheats, no mods, and both are single classed.
Which class is more powerful?
Barbarian's Rage adds +4 to STR & CON, Berserkers adds a straight damage bonus.
Berserkers Rage protects from imprisonment, which while you rarely face it, there aren't too many ways to protect against it (unless you don't mind a Rep loss).
Barbarians run faster, Berserkers get grandmastery.
Barbarians get more HP, Berserkers get a better AC.
Which class is more powerful?
Barbarian's Rage adds +4 to STR & CON, Berserkers adds a straight damage bonus.
Berserkers Rage protects from imprisonment, which while you rarely face it, there aren't too many ways to protect against it (unless you don't mind a Rep loss).
Barbarians run faster, Berserkers get grandmastery.
Barbarians get more HP, Berserkers get a better AC.
- Barbarian vs Berserker: which is better?147 votes
- Barbarian43.54%
- Berserker56.46%
0
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
As mentioned several times, the Barb is basically a F/C MC, as a single class (self-buffs only), They can hit 80% DR with DoEH and Hardiness (130% blunt, 105% piercing, with proper gear), they can easily buff their str to 25 (slightly weaker DUHM), they're faster allowing you to get to those squishy mages and archers faster without worrying about boots of speed, as well as kite strong melee enemies without taking damage negating a lot of benefit for high ac in the first place. And you can completely ignore enemy thieves, who aren't even worth note when they aren't face-stabbing you for 70-135 damage a pop.
Their armor penalty is a joke, and GM is over-rated, even with the corrected specialization table EE uses, and while their Rage doesn't last quite as long as the berserkers does, it also has no penalty (and is grossly overkill anyway).
Stacking all the 1 hp per round regen items, and the bonus for 25 con, Barbarians can literally heal faster then most enemies can ever hope to damage them.
Another importance difference between their rage abilities is that Berserkers have stun immunity, while Barbarians don't. That makes them a liability when going against spell-casters and powerful outsiders. Also, Barbarians' STR and CON bonuses can be duplicated with magical potions, belts, rings, etc.
In the end, I think it really comes down to AC. Barbarians can't wear plate or full plate armor (which has great bonuses vs. damage type), so they're limited to their lighter splint, chain, scale, and leather armors. Even with their damage resistance, they're still getting hit more often than Berserkers.
Also, with stats capped at 25, if you use multiple tomes, you will have a limit how much the Barbarian Rage will actually help.
On top of that, if you want the strength/con/dex boost (on top of items+tomes+WK bonuses) you can always dual-class to cleric.
To be honest, in ToB, high level enemies will hit you regardless of if you have a full plate or a splint mail (there are better magical splints than plates), you will hit them as well even without GM bonuses and if you go powergaming route, your stats will be high enough, so it won't make big difference. (not a big difference between 19str and 21str. The biggest bump is between 18-19).
There, hardiness and damage reduction can come in handy, but anyway - the most dangerous damage by that time is magical anyway.
...that said...I would go for a Barbarian. Suits me a bit better RolePlay-wise. Berserker only, when wanting to go pure fighter as Berserker is imho better than a pure fighter.
Nope....A barbarian can one-shot elder orbs before they become a threat, they literally die in like 2 hits a piece (I tend to use FoA MH, which is basically I-WIN vs all encounters), and once you're in melee range there is no casting, aside their eye-rays which are scripted, and that's assuming you aren't using the shield of cheese, which just requires staying out of melee range till they kill themselves if you're paranoid about getting close. (I have literally never been imprisoned by anything except Demi-liches, in all my runs of this game as any class).
and the comparison is for single class only. If the berserker NEEDs to dual-class to compete, then it loses by default.
@Mortannia
(True GM is what EE uses, BG1 was wrong since the developers messed up on how to read 2nd edition charts....if it says 1 attack for specialization, 1 attack is ALL you get for your specialization bonus, otherwise it would've said 3/2 for GM...which anyone who had cracked open and actually read the player's handbook would've known).
The only difference between the immunities the rages give is imprisonment. The list is identical otherwise.
There are also no potions that add str, they set str and the highest one is 23. Similarly, Con doesn't add either, it only sets (there's only a handful of items that grant a bonus to con and you give up survivability to use them (9 more hp vs 50% blunt damage reduction that pushed up to 130% when stacked and actually heals you instead, basically), and since you can hit 25 str via range, you can use FoA and Foebane, giving you about 50-80 extra hp, over the damage you're already not taking due to DR+regen (For targets with high MR, DoEH is better). There is no way for a non-cleric, non-shapeshifter, post-spellhold, non-barb to have 25 Con. And that's assuming you're evil, non-evil gets even less.
And no...they actually aren't.....because you see...much like a Kensai, a properly built barb will kill before he can be touched, 10/10 times, rendering AC irrelevant, it takes only a tiny bit of AC to filter out mook hits and when the mooks don't matter you can effortless destroy the legitimate threats in a single round (remember this is no Mods, ALL bosses can be killed in a single round, even God-B%^&#), and unlike the Kensai, the Barb has his speed boost built-in (and while not quite as badass in raw damage terms at the end of the game, the ease at which he can hit 25 str gives him almost the same benefit as 39 levels of Kensai, very early in the game, long before even Crom becomes an option (not that I would ever wield it as a Barb)).
ie : disintegrate or flesh to stone
You are not counting Elder Orbs them? Or are you saying that your one fighter protected from gaze attacks can always kill Elder Orbs instantly?
On top of that, if you want the strength/con/dex boost (on top of items+tomes+WK bonuses) you can always dual-class to cleric.
Elder orbs cast imprisonment at touch range, so try to avoid meleeing them. With a good bow or throwing axe or even a sling (with str dmg bonus) a barb can kill a foe from afar too.
Berserkers are wonderful for dual-class options. A berserker/cleric is a very viable character, with armor of faith he can duplicate barb's resistances, and draw upon holy might will equal barb rage in terms of ability score boosts. But you see, a berserker needs clerical magic to be on the same level stat wise as a natural barbarian!
Fair enough. At ToB levels, Barbs are damage-resistant killing machines. But what about in BGEE? For example, how does a 1st level Barbarian compare with a 1st level Berserker? I think it would be dependent upon the weapon style (two handed vs. dual-wield, sword & shield vs. sword and shield, etc.), assuming that they're wearing comparable armor (e.g., Barb with splint; Berserker with plate). I'd say the Barbs would do better if they're dual-wielding and the Berzerker would do better with two-handed or sword and shield.
Items can make those two the same, so the only thing that stays is imprisonment immunity, which, of course, can be cheesed through another way.
Also, if i have ways to boost my stats to 25 through various means, i prefer the flat damage increase than the ability increase.
Concluding, i also get more damage through grandmastery and ability to wear full plate, and i lose some hit points because of d12.
Hardly a difference between them, if you ask me, but i prefer the berserker, because i can dual cheese him and still wear plate.
unbalanced relatively to the rest of party movement speed is a handicap, regardless it's faster or slower (unlike the attacks per round modifier).
BG2 for most of the game barb BUT later in the game favors berserker because of all the str items that negates almost all barb pluses
dual favors berserker -barb can't dual without mods
fighter/cleric is better than barb can do the same plus buffs that are way better than single class
still fun tank
for bg1 1st level orc barbarian + rage is 23 str wow that 1st level enemies better run
Of course, many believe that Barbarians not being able to dual is an oversight to begin with. They're fighter kits in the game (not a separate class, like say Sorcerer), and in PnP, they can absolutely dual-class. That, of course, would put the Barbarian ahead once more.
The main issue, really, is that AC becomes less and less useful the higher up you go in the saga. By ToB, enemy THAC0s are so ridiculously low, they hit you even at extreme AC values. Damage resistance then mitigates a lot more damage than AC. Add to that the rampant incidental magic damage, and the value of hit points increases dramatically as well. Barbarians excel in both AC and HP, so it's no surprise they are so strong.
Rage, movement, and backstab-immunity are just icing on the cake. The only point Berserker has going for it is grandmastery, and while it hurts to lose that, some of the lost damage is at least made up by the easier-to-use and higher-damage Barbarian Rage - unless, as said above, you consider dual-classing as a Berserker-only perk.
That's a significant difference added by EE, and one I wasn't aware of.
The greatest advantage in fact, even if the OP specific put that theme out of the topic, is the possibility of a berserker to dual-class. That alone make them an extremly better class.
In other hand, if barbarians got the ability to dual class, their initial advantage bonus (immune to backstab, mov speed and stats increase) would make them perfect to dual class to mage or cleric.
In fact my game is moded atm with Cawdag tweak, RR and SCS, so i got able to dual my barbarian to cleric. I have to say, that's one of the most enjoynable characters that i have ever made, and cleric isn't even the best option probally (mage probally is better).
If you're going to dual-class, Berserker. If not, Barbarian.
Berserker advantages over Barbarian:
Can Dual-Class
More immunities while raging
Can put 5 points into weapon skills
Wear heavier armor
Barbarian advantages over Berseker:
Larger bnuses from raging (+4 to CON and STR)
d12 HP (Max Barbarian HP is 18 HP higher than maximum Berserker HP)
Immunity to backstab
Faster movement
Damage Resitance
Doesn't get fatigued after raging.
If you're dualclassing, choose the Berseker. Fighter/Mage is so hideously overpowered that all challenge disappears from the game and no class can compete with it. If you want to play a pure class, the single biggest advantage of the Berserker disappears.
Pure Berseker against Pure Barbarian:
The extra 1/2 attack from 5 proficiency points is certainly nice. However, it does mean a great deal of specialization and time to reach it. This means that for a large portion of the saga, the Berserker will not have it's biggest advantage over the Barbarian. He'll only get grandmastery in SoA. Even once he gets it, he'll only be fully effective with one type of weapon until ToB. The Barbarian gets the same number of proficiency points as a fighter. Because he doesn't place five points into a single weapon type, he can spread his around to a much wider number of weapon types, allowing him to utilize more of the weapons that he finds. If a Berserker is putting his points into longswords, he'll be very good with them. Unfortunately, he won't get much use out of the Flail of Ages for a long time. If he does put his proficiency points into a wide variety of weapons, he'll be delaying his acquisition of grandmastery even longer and will negate much of the point of playing a Fighter. But a Barbarian doesn't have to worry about that. He can reach full effectiveness with his primary weapon type at character creation, spending the rest of his proficiency points on whatever weapons he wants. Having the ability to gain grandmastery is certainly an advantage, but utilizing that ability is not without costs.
A Barbarian's extra HP is extremely useful, especially at low levels, where enemies can frequently OHK characters. Plus the faster movement is very nice for charging mages and archers before they can do much damage. The backstab immunity doesn't come up much, but is extremely helpful when it does.
I see it this way: In BG1, The Barbarian's larger bonuses from rage, faster speed, and higher HP will make it outclass the Berseker, especially since the Berseker won't have grandmastery then. Immunity to imprisonment won't do much good when nobody uses it in BG1. By SoA, the higher-end plate armors, and grandmastery will even the playing field. Immunity to imprisonment is nice, but only a handful of enemies will use it. For those times, slayer form, immunity to undead scrolls, and immunity to magic scrolls will suffice. During this time, Barbarian damage resistance will start to kick in, helping to offset the lack of heavy armor.
By ToB, AC is mostly irrelevant, and very powerful medium armor is available anyway, meaning that the Berserker's armor advantage mostly disappears. At this point, the Barbarian's higher HP, larger THAC0 and damage bonuses from raging, absurdly high CON from raging, faster movement, greater versatility from spread-out proficiencies, and damage resistance start to outweigh the imprisonment immunity and that extra 1/2 attack from grandmastery.
In conclusion:
If dual-classing: Berseker wins hands-down.
If playing a single class:
Barbarian will be better at low levels (BG1)
They'll be mostly even with the Berseker perhaps having a slight advantage at mid-levels (most of SoA)
Barbarian will be better at high levels (End of SoA, all of ToB)
The Barbarian seems to be the winner if playing single-class, especially in BG1.
The damage bonus varies a lot more, but you tend to get MORE than +2. Possibly a lot more: with 17 STR you'd get +8 damage from your Rage, for example (and +3 hit).
1° -In ToB, we're already with 22 (or 23 str points if half-orc), Book in BG, machine of Lum the mad in the Watcher's Keep BG2 and Hell trial in BG2. just follow the nice guy path in BG to get the good dreams, so Draw Upon Holy Might will fuel the last 2 points in strenght to 25.
So, in the true late game barb rage isn't something too needed.
2° - By dualing in mage i have access to tenser transformation, what simply double my hitpoints, so again, that 12 dice roll for HP and the +4 con bonus doesn't make that much difference anyway.
Obs: i admit that +2 from DUHM and +4 from Barb rage get a 24 constitution stat, which lead to a nice regeneration, but when someone is able to not be damaged at all, that doesn't sound that much overpower. But an early game barbarian can be extremly stronger.
3° - Immunity to backstab isn't soo nice, cos except by
Even then, if the AI was high, they would just avoid the barbarian and would choose another party member to backstab.
4° - Damage resistance is a bad joke in this game, in epic levels we get only 20% of damage resistance, this is imbecile, even the first bonus is only achivable at level 11. When i play Barbarians today i always give myself and extra 20-30% resistance bonus by EE keeper for roleplay pruposes (i like to see my barbarians as Wulfgar is in the novels), normally 20% against slashing, 25 against piercing and missile and 30% against blunt weapons.
5° - Doesn't fatigue is nice, normally the fights end before that but sometimes it isn't possible.
Ps: Grandmaster now gives +3 to hit and +5 to damage beside the other bonus, correct if i'm wrong in this.
So, when we discuss in vanilla terms, the simple fact of being unable to dual class spoil the barbarian kit a lot. But then, fuck with the vanilla options, @Cawdag tweak is here for this (thx man by the way XD!), My actual Barbarian/cleric is awesome by the way
Also, I dual classed with a mage.
Can't do that with a barbarian, no sir.