1° -In ToB, we're already with 22 (or 23 str points if half-orc), Book in BG, machine of Lum the mad in the Watcher's Keep BG2 and Hell trial in BG2. just follow the nice guy path in BG to get the good dreams, so Draw Upon Holy Might will fuel the last 2 points in strenght to 25.
So, in the true late game barb rage isn't something too needed.
Only CHARNAME can use DuHM, and only if of good alignment, and
2° - By dualing in mage i have access to tenser transformation, what simply double my hitpoints, so again, that 12 dice roll for HP and the +4 con bonus doesn't make that much difference anyway.
This thread SPECIFICALLY discounts dual-classing, which in its vanilla form definitely favors Berserkers.
Obs: i admit that +2 from DUHM and +4 from Barb rage get a 24 constitution stat, which lead to a nice regeneration, but when someone is able to not be damaged at all, that doesn't sound that much overpower. But an early game barbarian can be extremly stronger.
Naturally the Barbarian's HP advantage is most pronounced in levels still affected by hit dice (i.e. below 10). But do keep in mind that extra CON not only gives regeneration at high levels, it also gives you bonus HP. As with STR, this bonus varies depending on your initial score and tapers off when CON is very high/low. These bonus HP are essentially a temporary "shield", soaking up damage until they're gone (when restored to original HP, all damage that was taken off of bonus HP "disappears").
3° - Immunity to backstab isn't soo nice, cos except by
Yoshimo's betrayal
and the chosen of cyric fight in ToB and other VERY FEEL fights, the thief AI of the game is too dumb to make them backstab the party, and then, one can always become invulnerable to melee atacks when dualed to a mage.
Even then, if the AI was high, they would just avoid the barbarian and would choose another party member to backstab.
Immunity to backstab certainly isn't a highlight, I very much agree. Still it's definitely handy, especially when power- and/or meta-gaming; send in Barbarian into a bunch of stealthed thieves, and they will pop out to backstab in vain - then send in the rest of the team. In the vanilla game, this matters little as there is very few dangerous backstabbers. With mods, though, this can change drastically; in my SCSII game, most city ambushes start with stealthed thieves and their backstabs do very high damage (Insane difficulty). Having someone who's immune to that is very handy.
4° - Damage resistance is a bad joke in this game, in epic levels we get only 20% of damage resistance, this is imbecile, even the first bonus is only achivable at level 11. When i play Barbarians today i always give myself and extra 20-30% resistance bonus by EE keeper for roleplay pruposes (i like to see my barbarians as Wulfgar is in the novels), normally 20% against slashing, 25 against piercing and missile and 30% against blunt weapons.
You get full damage resistance before epic levels (which are >3m XP). Keep in mind that you can stack this with Hardiness and resistance from items (Defender of Easthaven, Roranach's Horn) and spells. Damage resistance is not a "bad joke" - it's very powerful. Later in the game enemy THAC0s are ridiculous and they WILL hit you almost regardless of your AC. The only way to mitigate damage is through damage resistance at that point - and even the initial 20% is quite significant, if you think about it. It's like having 20% more HP against physical attacks - think of how much that would be! Barbarians seem to be designed as damage-sponges, and this is one of their key perks.
Personally I like to dual into a cleric, wielding Defender of Easthaven and using Armor of Faith... bring it on!
5° - Doesn't fatigue is nice, normally the fights end before that but sometimes it isn't possible.
Very minor perk. I very rarely fatigue, except when I spam non-improved Haste in the midgame. Even then, there is practically no penalty to resting frequently so it's basically never a problem.
Ps: Grandmaster now gives +3 to hit and +5 to damage beside the other bonus, correct if i'm wrong in this.
GM does give +3 hit/+5 damage, but that is the total value. Specialization is included in that, and gives +1/+2 already, so having GM is an advantage of +2 hit/+3 damage. The part that really matters, though, is the +1/2 APR you get from GM. APR is the single most effective damage increase.
Not having GM does weaken the Barbarian, of course. There's no question that a Berserker will have a higher damage output. But that is really the only advantage it has (since we're discounting dual-classing, under vanilla rules).
This thread is about single class vs single class, so dualing is irrelevant.
With all due respect, don't take it bad, but that's pretty ... eerr not smart in the lack of a better word. When dual class possibility can be seen as an advantage of an class, dischard dualing as irrelevant is extremly fallacious, it's the same that compare both classes but say "this thread isn't about stat bonus, so any stat bonus of the classes can't be used for the comparison".
1° - Yes, so? Do we have any Barbarian NPC for this statement? Alignment has nothing to do with the dream abilities, you got them based on your reputation, play the game with an chaotic evil character with 20 reputation the entire game and you will end with 2 cure light wounds, 2 slow poisons and 2 DUHM.
What define which skill you get is your actual reputation in the moment a dream is trigged, 10+ = good dream = good power; 9- = bad dream = evil powers.
2° - as i said before, discount dual class is ignorance, the OP can set a line of discussion, but as i demonstrated above, want to raise an argument saying that an argument point can't be raised without a proper reason to it is pure fallacy.
3° - I pretty much agree that with SCS a barbarian become more useful yes, but then if you want to keep in line with the OP statements, as you rejected dual class based on that, raise an point based in mod is a rightful option?
4° - With Hardiness i have to give you the point, dmg resistance base of the barbarian become a bit less useless, still i think that 30 to 35 damage resistance base upgrade in the vanilla class would be a lot more usefull, specially if set to be get 5% of it at each 5 levels (5/10/15/20/25/30).
About your preference to dual class, i pretty much agree with that, i didn't saw my barb at great priest level, but i presume he will rock at that levels, can't wait to see that.
I'm honestly amazed by how even the poll is. I was under the impression that maybe 10% of people preferred Barbarian.
I do prefer Barbarian, and I also feel that it is the better class in terms of role-playing. Rarely anyone ever plays a Berserker to actually be a berserker type of person, but rather to be some random melee build that acts like a normal fighter, or worse, a rather convenient dual-class that probably makes no sense. (Berserker/Druid? Honestly??)
1° - Yes, so? Do we have any Barbarian NPC for this statement? Alignment has nothing to do with the dream abilities, you got them based on your reputation, play the game with an chaotic evil character with 20 reputation the entire game and you will end with 2 cure light wounds, 2 slow poisons and 2 DUHM.
In BG1, yes. If you start a new BG2 game though (no import), you'll get it based on alignment. But you started your whole argument with "In ToB...", so I kind of assumed a broader view. You really will have DuHM only for what, the first 1/3 of BG2. After that it's gone. Not exactly reliable! And isn't the bonus you get from the spell tied to char level anyway? So in BG1 you'd get only a few points.
3° - I pretty much agree that with SCS a barbarian become more useful yes, but then if you want to keep in line with the OP statements, as you rejected dual class based on that, raise an point based in mod is a rightful option?
I mentioned that point for completeness. I did say that it wasn't much of a highlight in general, and that mods increase the value. Given SCS's popularity, I think it's not a stretch to at least mention it.
4° - With Hardiness i have to give you the point, dmg resistance base of the barbarian become a bit less useless, still i think that 30 to 35 damage resistance base upgrade in the vanilla class would be a lot more usefull, specially if set to be get 5% of it at each 5 levels (5/10/15/20/25/30).
You can already do some sick stacking that makes you immune to blunt attacks, even get healed by them. I'm not sure even more resistance is necessary, though I suppose you can find RP justification for it. For anything, really... But 20% is already quite good, given the naturally high HP pool of a Barbarian. Hardiness also lasts for quite a while. What I absolutely agree with though is a more even distribution of the bonus - having few "breakpoint" levels makes for clunky design.
Berserker simply gets a bonus to damage and can boost strength and constitution through other means, barbarians can't boost it over 25 in the first place, so a tiny advantage goes over the berserker. But if I had to pick a single class, without dual, I wouldn't go with either.
If you're not going for a more "power-gamey" setup with difficult mods, you are probably best served playing what you enjoy most. The game isn't nearly difficult enough to warrant choices based on +2 hit/damage differences, or similarly small distinctions. These things only really come into play at high difficulty levels.
Of course, it always helps to be informed in detail, but don't put too much weight on "under-the-hood" finesse; certainly not at the expense of RP and personal preference, which for you are likely to matter much more!
I have soloed the game with a bunch of different classes (years ago, vanilla, before kits), so I know it can be done with any class, even without the support if the party.
As I said, I just over think it. I kinda like overthinking it. LOL
Well, you can always try out mods, see if you like them. I particularly recommend SCS, as it changes the experience quite significantly And then you'll have a reason to be thinking some more, too!
Well, you can always try out mods, see if you like them. I particularly recommend SCS, as it changes the experience quite significantly And then you'll have a reason to be thinking some more, too!
I only have access to the game on my iPad. I don't think there are any mods on this thing.
I've played tons of games where I was a beserker ( no dual class nonsense, cause that shiznit is very broken) and barbarians, and it always seemed that beserkers just faired better, now I did have the mod that gave fighters bg1 proficiency style for bg2 ( so beserkers would always have 1 more full attack per round which really makes them shine) and when I played my barbarians I always went Conan style, big sword/ or big halberd ( didn't want to do that cheap FotA and DoE jargon, why play that game if you are going to be unbearingly invincible?) now based on that, yeah that would make the beserker way better, but it all comes down to how you play your barbarian/beserker for which one is going to be better than the other, yes that was prolific but in my experience beserkers always seemed to kick more booty
@sarevok57 It's not surprising you felt that way, as Berserkers definitely dish it out better. Barbarians soak it up better, though. If the game is fairly easy (no mods, low difficulty), then damage sponges aren't necessary, and all you really want is another killing machine - a clear point for the Berserker.
Also, Berserker should have +1/2 APR ono the Barbarian, not +1; that's the old version of the GM fix, and further pushes bias towards Berserker.
They are quite different. Perhaps unfair to contrast together.
The rage ability of a Barbarian can get stats quite high that allows some really silly damage and even regeneration of hp.
On the other hand grandmastery for the beserker not raging is good...
Roleplay wise, I would rather play a Ghengis Khan and his horde of barbarians, that saw city dwellers as weak fools, than an Eric Bloodaxe or Captain Blackbeard character who made people scared of them by cutting themselves or setting their beard on fire (do a wiki to get all the info...)
Not really...the Barbarian gets all the AC you ever need, due to his higher speed...he can close the distance quicker (largely negating ranged attacks/spells) and move out of range before enemies can strike (assuming you have a fairly fast weapon) which disempowers melee enemies.
Now if you try to play a barbarian like a berserker, sure the berserker is better, because despite thematic similarities, they're two very different classes in actual play-style.
The berserker is a tank, very heavy on the tank, and for most of the game, a completely inferior damage dealer, only becoming up to par around the time AC becomes worthless and the barbarian's resistances and greater HP totals excel. While a Barbarian is an avoidance fighting damage dealer (similar to a kensai, except no downsides).
It ultimately comes down to, do you hate fighter? Play a berserker (that way you can spend more of your time using NPCs). Do you like fighters, play a barbarian (since you'll have to micromanage a bit more to get their full effectiveness).
It's basically the same issue as with thieves....do you just use your thief for locks/traps?, then you'll want a berserker....like backstabbing? Barbarian is up your ally.
The berserker is a tank, very heavy on the tank, and for most of the game, a completely inferior damage dealer
Could you elaborate on that? Even with a worse Rage, GM should make for a higher damage output through APR alone, no? Or are you talking about BG1 only, where it'll take a while to reach GM?
The berserker is a tank, very heavy on the tank, and for most of the game, a completely inferior damage dealer
Could you elaborate on that? Even with a worse Rage, GM should make for a higher damage output through APR alone, no? Or are you talking about BG1 only, where it'll take a while to reach GM?
Doesn't GM amount to only 1/2 more ApR over Specialization?
A Berserker, in BG1, is a better tank because of heavier armor.
Because in BG1 they have a massive advantage due to much higher damage from str boosts, as well as the same benefits until the sequel, also keep in mind, time spent running to the target is time spent not killing the enemies and taking extra ranged attacks. While boots of speed become available much earlier in BG2 then they did in BG1, it still remains a point to consider, as you could've moved those boots to another character who might've benefited more (BSing thieves especially or another strong melee character).
The berserker starts to move ahead in mid SOA, but then hits a wall near the end when any warrior can achieve 10 attacks per round and AC becomes worthless, since even leather can offer nigh invulnerability to mooks and legitimately dangerous enemies will hit you anyway most of the time, either through IH or GWW, by your preference of weapon/gear choices making the barbarian overall superior, except for a tiny band right in the middle of the saga.
The only trick a Berserker has is dual-classing....that's it...that's their only advantage..and still isn't much of one, since as stated, a Barbarian is already a slightly weaker berserker/cleric as a fast leveling single class, with no downtime period.
Nope....A barbarian can one-shot elder orbs before they become a threat, they literally die in like 2 hits a piece (I tend to use FoA MH, which is basically I-WIN vs all encounters), and once you're in melee range there is no casting, aside their eye-rays which are scripted, and that's assuming you aren't using the shield of cheese, which just requires staying out of melee range till they kill themselves if you're paranoid about getting close. (I have literally never been imprisoned by anything except Demi-liches, in all my runs of this game as any class).
Firstly, if it takes two hits then you did not one *one*-shot the Elder Orb. More importantly, my point was that you have to rely on luck on in such encounters (there's always a 5% chance you miss and get imprisoned) whilst the berserker doesn't because he has a hard counter.
Doesn't GM amount to only 1/2 more ApR over Specialization?
A Berserker, in BG1, is a better tank because of heavier armor.
APR increases damage by quite a lot, even if it's just 1/2. It directly scales with your weapon, too, so the better the weapon, the more damage you gain from extra APR (unlike static damage bonuses, which do not scale with weapons, but also scale with APR).
I do agree btw that in BG1 armor plays a much, much larger role. Plate or not is a significant difference there. But later on in the series, it becomes less relevant, as enemy THAC0s just shoot through the roof.
Imprisonment has a cast time of 9 (even for Elder Orbs...but it's easy to miss since they can still spam eye beams while casting).....you have to miss 8 times in a row (And even if they debuff you to remove IH, you still get 3.5 base attacks, which are plenty) for them to get it off without interruption. (and on a solid FoA crit, you can indeed one-shot Elder orbs...2 for non-crit). And unless you're wielding the shield of cheese the berserker is even more vulnerable to dying outright from eyebeams due to less HP (I'll be fair and assume the berserker is using boots of speed, so the barbs greater base speed doesn't count against them, in closing the distance).
Imprisonment has a cast time of 9 (even for Elder Orbs...but it's easy to miss since they can still spam eye beams while casting).....you have to miss 8 times in a row (And even if they debuff you to remove IH, you still get 3.5 base attacks, which are plenty) for them to get it off without interruption. (and on a solid FoA crit, you can indeed one-shot Elder orbs...2 for non-crit).
People really need to promote mods more. One-shotting Elder-Orbs, even with FoA, is just silly. That's not supposed to happen.
Afaik neither Rage adds any APR. The APR advantage of Berserkers come from them being able to reach grandmastery in weapons, while Barbarians are limited to specialization.
Berserker/mage not only get +APR but also access to improved haste, what double the attacks per round (doubled APRs with improved haste break the 5 APR limit if i'm not wrong), some items can do the same, ok, but a wizard get a lot of other benefits (tenser transformation, stone skin, fire shield...)
Both have some pretty huge advantages. To me, it comes down to something kind of silly. When a barbarian rages, his extra hit points are lost first, because of the way Con bonuses work. If he rages, drops to 1 hp, and then his rage ends, he's still at 1 hp. The berserker's bonus hp isn't lost first, so if he drops to 1 hp and then his rage ends, he dies. I don't like dying on a timer, so the berserker isn't my cup of tea.
That said, as others have noted, the berserker can dual-class, while the barbarian can't. So if you're planning to do that, the berserker is the only option.
Technically any time you cross ANY beholder, it's supposed to be game over, immediately, unless the DM deliberately gimps them and makes them do stupid stuff. Beholder's exist to kill characters no matter how powerful they are (they are the Someone stronger, in always someone stronger) and if you do manage to kill one, you got lucky, since they have ALL the advantages. BG is basically a satire by making you go to a city of beholders and also fight them in huge groups when they appear in other places, despite being HIGHLY solitary creatures due to their massive egos.
After a point I just stop caring. The berserker and barbarian's rage have too many immunities, so I don't play as either of them, but if I had to choose, I'd play the barbarian, since it's a far more interesting character, as opposed to a berserker who you just throw at stuff and forget he exists while you play a caster or thief for the rest of the battle.
but if I had to choose, I'd play the barbarian, since it's a far more interesting character, as opposed to a berserker who you just throw at stuff and forget he exists while you play a caster or thief for the rest of the battle.
what? so you mean that barbarian is different because you can not do this with barbarian"but if I had to choose, I'd play the barbarian, since it's a far more interesting character, as opposed to a berserker who you just throw at stuff and forget he exists while you play a caster or thief for the rest of the battle. "?!
Comments
This thread SPECIFICALLY discounts dual-classing, which in its vanilla form definitely favors Berserkers.
Naturally the Barbarian's HP advantage is most pronounced in levels still affected by hit dice (i.e. below 10). But do keep in mind that extra CON not only gives regeneration at high levels, it also gives you bonus HP. As with STR, this bonus varies depending on your initial score and tapers off when CON is very high/low. These bonus HP are essentially a temporary "shield", soaking up damage until they're gone (when restored to original HP, all damage that was taken off of bonus HP "disappears"). Immunity to backstab certainly isn't a highlight, I very much agree. Still it's definitely handy, especially when power- and/or meta-gaming; send in Barbarian into a bunch of stealthed thieves, and they will pop out to backstab in vain - then send in the rest of the team. In the vanilla game, this matters little as there is very few dangerous backstabbers. With mods, though, this can change drastically; in my SCSII game, most city ambushes start with stealthed thieves and their backstabs do very high damage (Insane difficulty). Having someone who's immune to that is very handy.
But again, I agree it's a minor perk. You get full damage resistance before epic levels (which are >3m XP). Keep in mind that you can stack this with Hardiness and resistance from items (Defender of Easthaven, Roranach's Horn) and spells. Damage resistance is not a "bad joke" - it's very powerful. Later in the game enemy THAC0s are ridiculous and they WILL hit you almost regardless of your AC. The only way to mitigate damage is through damage resistance at that point - and even the initial 20% is quite significant, if you think about it. It's like having 20% more HP against physical attacks - think of how much that would be! Barbarians seem to be designed as damage-sponges, and this is one of their key perks.
Personally I like to dual into a cleric, wielding Defender of Easthaven and using Armor of Faith... bring it on! Very minor perk. I very rarely fatigue, except when I spam non-improved Haste in the midgame. Even then, there is practically no penalty to resting frequently so it's basically never a problem.
GM does give +3 hit/+5 damage, but that is the total value. Specialization is included in that, and gives +1/+2 already, so having GM is an advantage of +2 hit/+3 damage. The part that really matters, though, is the +1/2 APR you get from GM. APR is the single most effective damage increase.
Not having GM does weaken the Barbarian, of course. There's no question that a Berserker will have a higher damage output. But that is really the only advantage it has (since we're discounting dual-classing, under vanilla rules).
@Lord_Tansheron
1° - Yes, so? Do we have any Barbarian NPC for this statement? Alignment has nothing to do with the dream abilities, you got them based on your reputation, play the game with an chaotic evil character with 20 reputation the entire game and you will end with 2 cure light wounds, 2 slow poisons and 2 DUHM.
What define which skill you get is your actual reputation in the moment a dream is trigged, 10+ = good dream = good power; 9- = bad dream = evil powers.
2° - as i said before, discount dual class is ignorance, the OP can set a line of discussion, but as i demonstrated above, want to raise an argument saying that an argument point can't be raised without a proper reason to it is pure fallacy.
3° - I pretty much agree that with SCS a barbarian become more useful yes, but then if you want to keep in line with the OP statements, as you rejected dual class based on that, raise an point based in mod is a rightful option?
4° - With Hardiness i have to give you the point, dmg resistance base of the barbarian become a bit less useless, still i think that 30 to 35 damage resistance base upgrade in the vanilla class would be a lot more usefull, specially if set to be get 5% of it at each 5 levels (5/10/15/20/25/30).
About your preference to dual class, i pretty much agree with that, i didn't saw my barb at great priest level, but i presume he will rock at that levels, can't wait to see that.
I do prefer Barbarian, and I also feel that it is the better class in terms of role-playing. Rarely anyone ever plays a Berserker to actually be a berserker type of person, but rather to be some random melee build that acts like a normal fighter, or worse, a rather convenient dual-class that probably makes no sense. (Berserker/Druid? Honestly??)
I don't like playing evil, so the evil choices in Hell are out of the question.
I'll be playing on the iPad, so even when BG2 comes out, I don't even know if it'll be possible to import anyway.
Thanks for all the help guys.
Of course, it always helps to be informed in detail, but don't put too much weight on "under-the-hood" finesse; certainly not at the expense of RP and personal preference, which for you are likely to matter much more!
I have soloed the game with a bunch of different classes (years ago, vanilla, before kits), so I know it can be done with any class, even without the support if the party.
As I said, I just over think it. I kinda like overthinking it. LOL
Also, Berserker should have +1/2 APR ono the Barbarian, not +1; that's the old version of the GM fix, and further pushes bias towards Berserker.
They are quite different. Perhaps unfair to contrast together.
The rage ability of a Barbarian can get stats quite high that allows some really silly damage and even regeneration of hp.
On the other hand grandmastery for the beserker not raging is good...
Roleplay wise, I would rather play a Ghengis Khan and his horde of barbarians, that saw city dwellers as weak fools, than an Eric Bloodaxe or Captain Blackbeard character who made people scared of them by cutting themselves or setting their beard on fire (do a wiki to get all the info...)
BG2: Barbarian is better as damage resistance is useful
Now if you try to play a barbarian like a berserker, sure the berserker is better, because despite thematic similarities, they're two very different classes in actual play-style.
The berserker is a tank, very heavy on the tank, and for most of the game, a completely inferior damage dealer, only becoming up to par around the time AC becomes worthless and the barbarian's resistances and greater HP totals excel. While a Barbarian is an avoidance fighting damage dealer (similar to a kensai, except no downsides).
It ultimately comes down to, do you hate fighter? Play a berserker (that way you can spend more of your time using NPCs). Do you like fighters, play a barbarian (since you'll have to micromanage a bit more to get their full effectiveness).
It's basically the same issue as with thieves....do you just use your thief for locks/traps?, then you'll want a berserker....like backstabbing? Barbarian is up your ally.
A Berserker, in BG1, is a better tank because of heavier armor.
The berserker starts to move ahead in mid SOA, but then hits a wall near the end when any warrior can achieve 10 attacks per round and AC becomes worthless, since even leather can offer nigh invulnerability to mooks and legitimately dangerous enemies will hit you anyway most of the time, either through IH or GWW, by your preference of weapon/gear choices making the barbarian overall superior, except for a tiny band right in the middle of the saga.
The only trick a Berserker has is dual-classing....that's it...that's their only advantage..and still isn't much of one, since as stated, a Barbarian is already a slightly weaker berserker/cleric as a fast leveling single class, with no downtime period.
I do agree btw that in BG1 armor plays a much, much larger role. Plate or not is a significant difference there. But later on in the series, it becomes less relevant, as enemy THAC0s just shoot through the roof.
Imprisonment has a cast time of 9 (even for Elder Orbs...but it's easy to miss since they can still spam eye beams while casting).....you have to miss 8 times in a row (And even if they debuff you to remove IH, you still get 3.5 base attacks, which are plenty) for them to get it off without interruption. (and on a solid FoA crit, you can indeed one-shot Elder orbs...2 for non-crit). And unless you're wielding the shield of cheese the berserker is even more vulnerable to dying outright from eyebeams due to less HP (I'll be fair and assume the berserker is using boots of speed, so the barbs greater base speed doesn't count against them, in closing the distance).
That said, as others have noted, the berserker can dual-class, while the barbarian can't. So if you're planning to do that, the berserker is the only option.
Technically any time you cross ANY beholder, it's supposed to be game over, immediately, unless the DM deliberately gimps them and makes them do stupid stuff. Beholder's exist to kill characters no matter how powerful they are (they are the Someone stronger, in always someone stronger) and if you do manage to kill one, you got lucky, since they have ALL the advantages. BG is basically a satire by making you go to a city of beholders and also fight them in huge groups when they appear in other places, despite being HIGHLY solitary creatures due to their massive egos.
After a point I just stop caring. The berserker and barbarian's rage have too many immunities, so I don't play as either of them, but if I had to choose, I'd play the barbarian, since it's a far more interesting character, as opposed to a berserker who you just throw at stuff and forget he exists while you play a caster or thief for the rest of the battle.
this makes as much sense as my bad english