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BG2:EE No evil thief please

ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
edited June 2013 in Archive (General Discussion)
As the title says PLEASE don't make an evil thief. Make a neutral one so that the good parties can use him/her too. I know I know :" We have Imoen" but she isn't a real thief. That's why we everyone wants a new one in bg2:ee but if you make her evil , only the people who play evil will be able to use her. Of course she will stay as long your reputation stays under 18 , but who would like to play a whole game with some thief whining all the time about " how stupid I am " because I didn't want to see the inside of some kid.

And ALL the strongest NPC's are already evil ( Edwin, Viconia, Korgan)

Maybe there could be a subquest for him/her in the beginning when you get him/her that changes his/hers alignment to NE or to True Neutral

EDIT: I just wanna say that EVERYONE wants a full class thief in BG:EE2 so I think the best option is the alignment change ( but early in the game in act 2, so the evil parties don't have to wait to ToB. I
Post edited by ShadowHunter on
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Comments

  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    Imoen is good, Yoshimo dies and Nalia sucks. So the only option is Jan but after 1000 times he gets really annoying. That's why I thought about an option to change her alignment just like Anomen etc.
  • mungomunkmungomunk Member Posts: 63
    i just think there are to many neutral or good characters in the game and an evil thief would at least balance it out somewhat. but yeah I could live with a possible alignment change. However, you can always roll a thief yourself (dual/multiclass?) and avoid having to take one into your party;)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Just goes to show how broken, plain, and uninspired the alignment system is in BG. Instead of character complexity, moral choices and dilemmas, and alignment-based character interactions we get a simple solution of "if you have X rep or more/less, I'm OUTTA HERE!".

    Can't be fixed easily, so all they can do is try and balance things in a way that gives people a wide selection of NPCs. That's why there's so many neutrals, by the way. It seems that a large part of this thread is not about a potential evil thief, but rather about the available neutral/good thieves "sucking". I suppose it's a matter of taste to some degree, but keep in mind that the game already has a bias towards good alignments, so all the evil parties get in return are cool characters.

    There's bound to be imbalance somewhere... and who's to say that the new thief is actually a cool character? It might be Jan's manic, obnoxious cousin for all we know. It might be a smarmy wannabe more annoying than Anomen. I'm 100% sure that the same people would then immediately cry how unfair it is that they got a bad character for their evil party of super-bad friends.

    You can't placate everyone, and if you try, you please no one. A balance between alignments and classes to give a wide selection is the only sensible solution. And there's somewhat of a dearth in single/dual-class thieves on the dark side. Simple as that.
  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    Chow said:

    The thief needs to be evil. We have two evil fighters, an evil cleric, and an evil mage, but no thieves. The number of evil characters in the game is really lacking compared to the good and neutral ones, and could use one more.

    I totally agree but I just think an alignment change option would be best for everyone , the evil parties, the good and the neutral ones

  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    . It seems that a large part of this thread is not about a potential evil thief, but rather about the available neutral/good thieves "sucking". .

    Well actually I didn't want to imply that ALL thieves "suck", I only said that about Nalia 'cause to be honest she is a worthless thief. The others are good but everybody , the evils, neutrals and goods got tired of the only option to play , Imoen and Jan ( I don't mention Yoshimo, because you can't play with him further anyway).
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    edited June 2013
    i disagree, the thief should be evil, so a person can run an actual all evil party (without being an evil thief). you already have your neutral thief (jan) and you're good one (imoen, who you can class as evil/neutral as she never leaves the group anyway)
    Post edited by mjs on
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2013
    There are only 4 evil NPC's in the game if you count sarevok, and 7 good NPC's (or 5 vs 8 if you want to count Dorn and Rasaad). The game needs more evil NPC's and a thief could be a cool one to have. So I support an evil thief NPC.
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    Necroblivion said:

    What is it with you people!?!?! :( Jan is my most favorite character ever...

    Sure, but he is still neutral.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    You know, that neutral thief that's a really solid thief and decent Mage? Yeah, he's the neutral thief. That canon chick, your sister ffs? She's the good thief. Also Mage.

    Frankly, a vanilla thief in bg2 is going to have more points than it needs unless you are either shadow dancer or assassin, so I always loved using jan as my secondary caster. Sometimes tertiary.

    Why don't you complain that there aren't enough +5 flails that deal heaps of elemental damage?? I mean, we only get 1 flail of the ages to build! So yeah, since we have NO evil thief, something should get done.
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    Actually, @DreadKhan, that's a good point. The thief could have some multi- or dual-class capabilities, as a pure thief would indeed end up rather overloaded with skill points that you will never need. There are plenty of thief/mages in the game already, both of multi- and dual-class, but perhaps a fighter/thief, a cleric/thief, or a thief with reasonably high strength or wisdom that you could dual-class into one of the two later, when you have enough skill points for whatever you need - or the opposite, a cleric or a fighter with enough dexterity to qualify turning into a thief later?
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited June 2013
    Adul said:

    I always thought Jan Jansen was like an actual thief, only better because he can also cast mage spells. I mean, his starting gear easily gives him enough thief skill boosts that should put him on par with a single class thief, and by the time you replace his starting gear he should be high enough level to be good at pretty much everything.

    That said, I understand why you'd want the new thief to be neutral, and I can get behind that, as well.

    Well, as things are, Jan is the best thief NPC in BG2... As he doesn't betray you and isn't dual classed away from thief before reaching 100 Lockpick/Find Traps.

    People most likely want a single-classed thief and not a multi-classed one.
  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    Ok you guys were really convincing :P so maybe to make everubody make, make her evil and an option to make her neutral. Et voila , everybody happy. So then there would be 4 NPC that you could change their alignment. Isn't that a solution ?
  • mjsmjs Member Posts: 742
    DreadKhan said:


    Frankly, a vanilla thief in bg2 is going to have more points than it needs unless you are either shadow dancer or assassin, so I always loved using jan as my secondary caster. Sometimes tertiary.

    well with there only being 2 evil fighters (compared to 3 neutral (i'm counting anomen, jahiera and haer'dalis) and 4 good ones) an evil swashie can double as a fighter at high levels
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    ShadowHunter said:

    Ok you guys were really convincing :P so maybe to make everubody make, make her evil and an option to make her neutral. Et voila , everybody happy. So then there would be 4 NPC that you could change their alignment. Isn't that a solution ?

    Only if there is a neutral NPC that you can make evil >:)
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    ShadowHunter said:

    Ok you guys were really convincing :P so maybe to make everubody make, make her evil and an option to make her neutral. Et voila , everybody happy. So then there would be 4 NPC that you could change their alignment. Isn't that a solution ?

    Absolutely not. Because of the four evil NPCs in BG2, two can already be converted. That's half of an already-below-minimum group of characters.
  • ShadowHunterShadowHunter Member Posts: 143
    shawne said:

    ShadowHunter said:

    Ok you guys were really convincing :P so maybe to make everubody make, make her evil and an option to make her neutral. Et voila , everybody happy. So then there would be 4 NPC that you could change their
    alignment. Isn't that a solution ?

    Absolutely not. Because of the four evil NPCs in BG2, two can already be converted. That's half of an already-below-minimum group of characters.
    But if you want to play an evil party just don't change them, why even bother then ?
  • artificial_sunlightartificial_sunlight Member Posts: 601
    Dual Sarevok!
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    ShadowHunter said:

    But if you want to play an evil party just don't change them, why even bother then ?

    It's the principle of the thing. Good/Neutral players have options when forming their parties; Evil ones don't. Good/Neutral PCs can convert Evil NPCs; Evil players can't convert Good NPCs. The game is imbalanced enough in this respect as is - to then ask that a third character be converted for the convenience of players who already have Imoen, Nalia, Yoshimo and Jan strikes me as being just a bit problematic.
  • ChowChow Member Posts: 1,192
    It would be nice if we could turn more good people into neutral, or neutral people into full evil. Right now all we have on that regard is Anomen.
  • MortiannaMortianna Member Posts: 1,356
    @elminster I couldn't agree with you more! If Viconia can be "redeemed" to True Neutral, then Anomen (the pompous prig that he is) could easily be "corrupted" to Lawful Evil and still legitimately serve Helm. I never understood why he remained a Cleric of Helm after flip-flopping to Chaotic Neutral.

  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    I don't want an evil or neutral or good thief. I want an interesting character.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2013
    Mortianna said:

    @elminster I couldn't agree with you more! If Viconia can be "redeemed" to True Neutral, then Anomen (the pompous prig that he is) could easily be "corrupted" to Lawful Evil and still legitimately serve Helm. I never understood why he remained a Cleric of Helm after flip-flopping to Chaotic Neutral.

    Well I don't imagine they could change Anomen to evil given contract restrictions but I wouldn't be opposed to it if they did/could. The only other neutral option would be to turn Neera evil. She's the only new neutral character I'm aware of in the case of BG2EE. Writing wise given the whole cowled wizard thing it would be difficult to pull off though.
  • rdarkenrdarken Member Posts: 660
    edited June 2013
    I know we're pretty much confirmed at only one new character for BG2, but, in my opinion, we need more than that. There isn't a real cleric option for a good party (Anomen only sort of counts, even though I like him), there is only one thief option for the whole party, there isn't really an archer for evil parties, etc.... Compared to BG1, the NPC selection in BG2 is pretty poor.

    Poor, poor Yoshimo. I actually liked him.

    But, oh, there are like 15 mages.
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