@elminster I couldn't agree with you more! If Viconia can be "redeemed" to True Neutral, then Anomen (the pompous prig that he is) could easily be "corrupted" to Lawful Evil and still legitimately serve Helm. I never understood why he remained a Cleric of Helm after flip-flopping to Chaotic Neutral.
Well I don't imagine they could change Anomen to evil given contract restrictions but I wouldn't be opposed to it if they did/could. The only other neutral option would be to turn Neera evil. She's the only new neutral character I'm aware of in the case of BG2EE. Writing wise given the whole cowled wizard thing it would be difficult to pull off though.
I have trouble picturing Neera as a Chaotic Evil wild mage, but it would be an interesting twist if it the script was written well. I might actually recruit her then! Her current portrait might need to be altered slightly, but she already has a somewhat cold look in her eyes (well, except for the artwork where she has an expression of "Oops!" on her face").
@elminster I couldn't agree with you more! If Viconia can be "redeemed" to True Neutral, then Anomen (the pompous prig that he is) could easily be "corrupted" to Lawful Evil and still legitimately serve Helm. I never understood why he remained a Cleric of Helm after flip-flopping to Chaotic Neutral.
Well I don't imagine they could change Anomen to evil given contract restrictions but I wouldn't be opposed to it if they did/could. The only other neutral option would be to turn Neera evil. She's the only new neutral character I'm aware of in the case of BG2EE. Writing wise given the whole cowled wizard thing it would be difficult to pull off though.
I have trouble picturing Neera as a Chaotic Evil wild mage, but it would be an interesting twist if it the script was written well. I might actually recruit her then! Her current portrait might need to be altered slightly, but she already has a somewhat cold look in her eyes (well, except for the artwork where she has an expression of "Oops!" on her face").
I was thinking more neutral evil. As she becomes more powerful her chaotic side becomes more tempered.
I really couldn't care less if the thief is evil, or not. Its one more thief that the game needs. Seeing as there is only 1 pure class Thief, one multi-class, and two thieves that dual-classed into mages. One which was really horrible, and probably to replace the other one as a character, because the other one was supposed to die.
Actually there is no evil mage in my game, because that annoying #&$@ called Edwin dies by my power right from the get go. Also I slaughter Jan too because whomever created him just has to smile themselves to sleep every night for creating the WORST character in an RPG since.
I'd say to hell with it and make 3 thieves. One for each alignment type. Romance? Gender? Don't care. Just don't make them dualed or multiclassed or kitted (unless swashie since they get the full skill points), just plain theives.
I never play with evil party, but I almost always have one or two evil characters in it. It's not that much inconvenient. Of course I always mod the game so they don't care about reputation. I ignore reputation mostly. But I like the idea of changing npc's alignment based on charname's influence. That could be interesting.
Ok, so you have Imoen and Nalie who are good thieves... then Yoshimo and Jan who are neutral thieves... and then ...... who are evil thieves...?
Tell me why you don't want an evil thief again? Did I miss something?
I remember from my first BG2 playthrough that I was hoping Renal Bloodscalp would join my party after finishing the Mae'Var quest, thinking "There has to be a joinable evil thief in the game." Of course, we know how that turned out.
Don't want to ruin your faith here, but i'm pretty sure the dvs already have their NPC worked out for BG2EE. The dubbing stage is already on, actually, if i'm not mistaken by Tweeter.
Also i think an evil thief would make more sense since there is actually no evil thief option at the moment in BG2.
But maybe one of the new characters will be a dual classed thief. It would make sense since there is plenty of warriors / mages / clerics choice in the game, but only one true thief that stay alive to the end (Jan). We need at least one more thief. One and a half would be perfect.
Imoen is good, Yoshimo dies and Nalia sucks. So the only option is Jan but after 1000 times he gets really annoying.
You know what sucks and annoys even more, long before 1000 times?
Having no thief at all, and being forced to either have a thief charname, or multiplayer to create a thief for the already limited evil party.
"Jan annoys me and that's why we need another neutral thief" is a silly point. It's like claiming there are no evil mages because Edwin annoys you.
I'm not saying he is annoying, I'm saying playing the whole time with him gets annoying after a while. And that's totally not what I said. Did I say I don't play with him ? No, so please don't twist my words. And as I already said I do understand why evil parties want an evil thief, but why can't everybody be happy ? "Because the game is unbalanced and there are already 3 npc you can turn" I think that's kind of selfish but that's my opinion. Maybe good NPC will be turnable in the future I dont know, but I just cant underdstand why it's SO bad that the New thief would be first evil and maybe turnable to neutral, but as I said that's my opinion.
Honestly if your going the evil path then take yoshimo then later imoen. In general i've always seen imoen as your follower and while she might complain sometimes about you not doing the "good" thing there's always an option that basically tells her to shut up. NEVER ONCE SEEN HER LEAVE THE PARTY IN BG2!!!
Jan is also a good pick but his random, chapter-long stories get soooooooo annoying.
Nalia is basically just a wannabe thief, wannabe mage that isn't good at either EVER.
If you really want to get specific classes with specific alignments then start looking for some npc mod's. There's almost one npc mod per class/alignment setup.
Ok, so you have Imoen and Nalie who are good thieves... then Yoshimo and Jan who are neutral thieves... and then ...... who are evil thieves...?
Tell me why you don't want an evil thief again? Did I miss something?
Good aligned. Not good in terms of use
Not sure why you think Jan isn't good to use. In my current play through with Yoshimo at 16 and Jan at 13 and given Jan's starting equipment, He can pick any lock and remove any trap MUCH better than Yoshimo can. And when he isn't picking locks or removing traps, he is removing spell protections, casting hold monster and summoning other monsters. In short, I would much rather have Jan in my group. He can serve as trap finder/lock picker AND he can cast a whole host of spells.
He is also personality wise well disposed towards either a good party or a neutral one. And there really aren't any evilly disposed thieves in the game so....
Honestly if your going the evil path then take yoshimo then later imoen. In general i've always seen imoen as your follower and while she might complain sometimes about you not doing the "good" thing there's always an option that basically tells her to shut up. NEVER ONCE SEEN HER LEAVE THE PARTY IN BG2!!!
Jan is also a good pick but his random, chapter-long stories get soooooooo annoying.
Nalia is basically just a wannabe thief, wannabe mage that isn't good at either EVER.
If you really want to get specific classes with specific alignments then start looking for some npc mod's. There's almost one npc mod per class/alignment setup.
The general argument - which I tend to agree with - is that it's not necessarily about alignment/reputation, but rather personality. For all that Yoshimo is True Neutral, he fits in quite well with an evil party: like Yoshimo himself, Dorn, Korgan, Viconia and Edwin are all outsiders (ie: not native to Amn), and with the possible exception of Korgan, they're all exiles from their respective homelands.
By the same token, Jan may be Chaotic Neutral, but his behavior makes him much more suited to a Good party. Imoen will stick around no matter what, but that doesn't mean she fits in any better than Jan. And Nalia... sure, put her in the same team as Dorn, let's see how long she'll last with her insistence on charity and helping people.
@rdarken - Imoen is actually quite good if I remember correctly. Fantastic utility thief. Fantastic mage. Nalia I never took with me, and Jan is decent as well. Remember for an evil party Jan or Yoshimo/Imoen are the ONLY options. A neutral CHARNAME can have the best of both worlds. Good CHARNAMES can have good or neutral thieves. Jan slides easily into a good party, as does Yoshimo. Jan and Imoen do *not* fit into an evil party.
Personally, I never cared too much as I always went Assassin when I played evil. However, the option would be nice. An evil joinable NPC thief is sorely needed in this game. Neutral/Good thieves are not.
Honestly if your going the evil path then take yoshimo then later imoen. In general i've always seen imoen as your follower and while she might complain sometimes about you not doing the "good" thing there's always an option that basically tells her to shut up. NEVER ONCE SEEN HER LEAVE THE PARTY IN BG2!!!
Jan is also a good pick but his random, chapter-long stories get soooooooo annoying.
Nalia is basically just a wannabe thief, wannabe mage that isn't good at either EVER.
If you really want to get specific classes with specific alignments then start looking for some npc mod's. There's almost one npc mod per class/alignment setup.
I can't speak for Imoen leaving in BG2 because I haven't seen her do it. But in BG1 Vanilla, I have had her depart the party when reputation dropped below 3. I was playing an evil group who got jumped by the Flaming Fist in Nashkal. After the second fist death, she up and left my group while they were in combat.
Imoen is good, Yoshimo dies and Nalia sucks. So the only option is Jan but after 1000 times he gets really annoying.
You know what sucks and annoys even more, long before 1000 times?
Having no thief at all, and being forced to either have a thief charname, or multiplayer to create a thief for the already limited evil party.
"Jan annoys me and that's why we need another neutral thief" is a silly point. It's like claiming there are no evil mages because Edwin annoys you.
I'm not saying he is annoying, I'm saying playing the whole time with him gets annoying after a while. And that's totally not what I said. Did I say I don't play with him ? No, so please don't twist my words. And as I already said I do understand why evil parties want an evil thief, but why can't everybody be happy ? "Because the game is unbalanced and there are already 3 npc you can turn" I think that's kind of selfish but that's my opinion. Maybe good NPC will be turnable in the future I dont know, but I just cant underdstand why it's SO bad that the New thief would be first evil and maybe turnable to neutral, but as I said that's my opinion.
Calm down. You can make that statement about nearly every NPC. If you run with Viconia 1000 times, she's annoying and no other evil cleric is there! If you run with Keldorn 1000 times, he's annoying and no other good paladin is there, blablub. So it is selfish to ask for a SECOND neutral thief (not counting Yoshimo here because I'm generous/he won't stay to the end) when another alignment doesn't even have ONE option.
Imoen is good, Yoshimo dies and Nalia sucks. So the only option is Jan but after 1000 times he gets really annoying.
You know what sucks and annoys even more, long before 1000 times?
Having no thief at all, and being forced to either have a thief charname, or multiplayer to create a thief for the already limited evil party.
"Jan annoys me and that's why we need another neutral thief" is a silly point. It's like claiming there are no evil mages because Edwin annoys you.
I'm not saying he is annoying, I'm saying playing the whole time with him gets annoying after a while. And that's totally not what I said. Did I say I don't play with him ? No, so please don't twist my words. And as I already said I do understand why evil parties want an evil thief, but why can't everybody be happy ? "Because the game is unbalanced and there are already 3 npc you can turn" I think that's kind of selfish but that's my opinion. Maybe good NPC will be turnable in the future I dont know, but I just cant underdstand why it's SO bad that the New thief would be first evil and maybe turnable to neutral, but as I said that's my opinion.
Calm down. You can make that statement about nearly every NPC. If you run with Viconia 1000 times, she's annoying and no other evil cleric is there! If you run with Keldorn 1000 times, he's annoying and no other good paladin is there, blablub. So it is selfish to ask for a SECOND neutral thief (not counting Yoshimo here because I'm generous/he won't stay to the end) when another alignment doesn't even have ONE option.
Sorry if I offended you , English is not my first language so maybe what I said could be interpretaded more aggressive than I meant. And I'm not asking for another neutral ( well first I did ) , I'm asking for an evil that can be changed to another alignmen
I really couldn't care less if the thief is evil, or not. Its one more thief that the game needs. Seeing as there is only 1 pure class Thief, one multi-class, and two thieves that dual-classed into mages. One which was really horrible, and probably to replace the other one as a character, because the other one was supposed to die.
The game needs an additional single class thief.
The game ALSO needs an additional evil aligned party member.
@the_spyder I didn't say Jan isn't good. I really like Jan. Jan is neutral, though. I was making a joke that Imoen and Nalia are "Good" thieves, but they aren't good thieves.
@EntropyXII Jan can work in an evil party because he is neutral, but, as seems to be the case with most of the neutral NPCs, they're really more good than anything. I don't even think Jan complains if your rep is too high. As far as Imoen goes, I don't think she can handle all the traps and locks in BG 2 and ToB without potions or gear, can she? She's obviously a fine mage, but BG2 is not lacking in mages for a good-aligned party.
@rdarken: Imoen has 95 in Open Locks and 85 in Find Traps - add a Ring of Lock Picks and a Ring of Danger Sense and she can blow through any thief-based challenge in the game.
Comments
Having no thief at all, and being forced to either have a thief charname, or multiplayer to create a thief for the already limited evil party.
"Jan annoys me and that's why we need another neutral thief" is a silly point. It's like claiming there are no evil mages because Edwin annoys you.
I have an idea for one with the name Jan or maybe Yoshimo ..
Tell me why you don't want an evil thief again? Did I miss something?
I'd say to hell with it and make 3 thieves. One for each alignment type. Romance? Gender? Don't care. Just don't make them dualed or multiclassed or kitted (unless swashie since they get the full skill points), just plain theives.
"Phillip Daigle @daigledopple (09 may)
#BG2EE VO today with the maniacally talented @KendraConnor. We're making her imitate Fran Frescher while we cackle, safely behind glass."
But maybe one of the new characters will be a dual classed thief.
It would make sense since there is plenty of warriors / mages / clerics choice in the game, but only one true thief that stay alive to the end (Jan). We need at least one more thief. One and a half would be perfect.
who will replace Montaron then?
I do not want to go thief myself.
BTW, there are already thief NPCs of good and neutral alignment.
Jan is also a good pick but his random, chapter-long stories get soooooooo annoying.
Nalia is basically just a wannabe thief, wannabe mage that isn't good at either EVER.
If you really want to get specific classes with specific alignments then start looking for some npc mod's. There's almost one npc mod per class/alignment setup.
He is also personality wise well disposed towards either a good party or a neutral one. And there really aren't any evilly disposed thieves in the game so....
By the same token, Jan may be Chaotic Neutral, but his behavior makes him much more suited to a Good party. Imoen will stick around no matter what, but that doesn't mean she fits in any better than Jan. And Nalia... sure, put her in the same team as Dorn, let's see how long she'll last with her insistence on charity and helping people.
Personally, I never cared too much as I always went Assassin when I played evil. However, the option would be nice. An evil joinable NPC thief is sorely needed in this game. Neutral/Good thieves are not.
Sorry if I offended you , English is not my first language so maybe what I said could be interpretaded more aggressive than I meant. And I'm not asking for another neutral ( well first I did ) , I'm asking for an evil that can be changed to another alignmen
The game ALSO needs an additional evil aligned party member.
@EntropyXII Jan can work in an evil party because he is neutral, but, as seems to be the case with most of the neutral NPCs, they're really more good than anything. I don't even think Jan complains if your rep is too high.
As far as Imoen goes, I don't think she can handle all the traps and locks in BG 2 and ToB without potions or gear, can she? She's obviously a fine mage, but BG2 is not lacking in mages for a good-aligned party.