@shawne So, I was correct in saying she cannot handle all the traps and locks in the game without potions or gear?
EDIT: Point being, if she needs two rings to be a competent thief, she's not really a good thief. That also means she's losing some effectiveness as a mage, since she can't wear the Ring of Wizardry.
If there is an evil theif, then in bg2 for the first time ever you will be able to feel a diverse and fully functional ENTIRELY EVIL party, which is kind of a big deal (Charname, Dorn, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Evil Thief)
EDIT: Point being, if she needs two rings to be a competent thief, she's not really a good thief. That also means she's losing some effectiveness as a mage, since she can't wear the Ring of Wizardry.
So give her the Ring of Wizardry plus the Ring of Danger Sense for traps; in the very rare occasion that you'll come up against a lock that can't be picked with a skill of 95, use a potion.
You can get an Evil Thief in BG2. Sarevok works well as a pure thief (if dual classed) during the majority of ToB. Since he won't get access to his original fighter class for a while, he is certainly be a pure thief for most of ToB.
Yes, I know that doesn't count, but I just wanted to point that out.
No. There are plenty of options for good thieves. If you don't like Jan's personality, you can still have Imoen/Yoshimo. If you are evil, Jan is your ONLY option. The options for an all evil party are extremly limited in BG2. Dorn will help, but not enough.
Evil is severely harmed in BG2, in fact you don't get so much options in BG2. To be evil you need to be a thief and get Korgan, Edwin and Viconia, and even then, only 4 members in the party to make pure evil. Jan can get along somehow well with an evil party, but he's not evil. By the way an a piece of advice, if you kill the svirfneblin in underdark, no matter what he turns hostile on you (i'm pretty sure of this but confirmation would be welcome).
Besides, if we're evil and thief we can't align with Bodhi, what is truly sad, however as i made Valen nearly an official mod in my games, that's a bit fixed. The only problem comes from her overpower being that have to be countered by giving protection from undead to half of the game NPCs.
@elminster I couldn't agree with you more! If Viconia can be "redeemed" to True Neutral, then Anomen (the pompous prig that he is) could easily be "corrupted" to Lawful Evil and still legitimately serve Helm. I never understood why he remained a Cleric of Helm after flip-flopping to Chaotic Neutral.
I use Anomen in most of my evil runs as well. Despite the fact he leaves in reputation 2 or 1 (what i fix with mods), he don't complain to most of the evil acts an evil party can commit (chaotic neutral anomen, just to state).
While we can't change old NPCs, could the fallen anomen get some table changes (not content)? As being turned neutral evil instead of chaotic neutral, he could get some bonus (as+2 wisdom, +1 strengh and +1 constitution instead of +4 wisdom for lawful good anomen), and even the same ammount of XP you get if you enter the order. I ask this cos, by fail in the radiant heart test, to me that isn't a failure from roleplay perspective, and shoudn't behave like that. I choose to fail the test most of the times (in fact i hate the lawful good Anomen and really like the chaotic neutral Anomen).
Actually there is no evil mage in my game, because that annoying #&$@ called Edwin dies by my power right from the get go. Also I slaughter Jan too because whomever created him just has to smile themselves to sleep every night for creating the WORST character in an RPG since.
I'd say to hell with it and make 3 thieves. One for each alignment type. Romance? Gender? Don't care. Just don't make them dualed or multiclassed or kitted (unless swashie since they get the full skill points), just plain theives.
It's a sacrillege to speak against Jan, put him and Anomen (and maybe minsc) in the same party and you will have a comedy show along with your game. Serious, it will be most funny experience you gonna get from a game, just meet "Ano, the dumb half-orc and his catastrophic misadventures"!
By the way for good parties, even neutral ones, Imoen fit totally the basic needs for a thief (while yoshimo keep the party healthy enough until you get her). No matter if she was dualed at level 7, she has 95% in Detect traps and 95% in lockpick, and that is more than suffice to keep the adventure running, the only difference from her to a pure thief is the bonus xp you get from using thief skills at highter levels.
None of theese two are good at what they do. With the right equipment and potions you can get them to just about every lock in the game. But if you start adding items into the mix then it's not just the character anymore. And if you need to be babysat by items or potion you aren't good, you're decent (Imoen) or bad (Nalia).
Neutral thief - Jan.
This guy is the best thief in the game, and also the best multiclass you could wish for. Yes he has a very special personality that you have to survive, but character wise he is amazing. Good starting gear, and after that you can level up thief skills so you can drop his equipment as needed.
Bad thief - None.
There are no bad thiefs.
Yes it's sad that evil parties doesn't have a thief except jan. But seriously, there are no good thiefs in the game except Yoshimo and Jan. So if we remove Jan and Joshimo from the equation, we got a shitty thief (Nalia) Until we get to spellhold and can pick up a decent thief (Imoen). As evil player you're not missing out on much when you compare to nalia. And when you can pick up Imoen, you'll have knock spells and everything else to get through that part without problem. The only point i missed a thief on the evil side when i played the game, was RP reason.
And i'm all for asking for a single class thief, but please make it so that we can dual class. We have so many people here saying "We want a single class thief!" but let's get real here, single class thiefs aren't that good. So let's instead ask for a single class thief with either high wisdom or intelligence, so that you can dual class him when you reach the level you want, a little bit like Imoen in BG1.
Imagine our new thief like Sarevok (Just with less godlike stats ofcourse). You have two options to dual class him into. That way everyone would win, you can keep him single class or dual him if you feel like it.
And about changing alignment.
Anomen -> Neutral Viconia -> Neutral Sarevok -> Good
The problem with changing alignment in the middle of the game is that it can ruin the character. It might feel forced and hurried along. They did it great with Anomen, Viconia and Sarevok but we had romances, or two whole games of information and character progress to slowly move them over.
If they spend time with the changing alignment it would be awesome. But if it's going to come second hand and have less time then i rather they not.
In my opinion i would like them to give us an evil thief, with the option to turn him to neutral. Just make it so that he doesn't run away by reputation if possible.
In the end i just hope we get a well written character.
[Edited] : I didn't mention yoshimo because of Plot related issues.
Something like this could be possible. The reason i picked 17 wisdom instead of intelligence is because we already got so many T/M in the game. This guy got a good score (84) and he can dual class to cleric from the start. He can also dual class to Fighter if he gets 1 point of strength (Lumes).
With BGEE you could make it so that if he dual class to a cleric he would turn into a Cleric of Mask.
They will pick elf for you, so you can't dual class. They will give you the 19 dexterity to make him the 'Perfect' Thief. But the 19 dexterity doesn't matter in BG2 once you gain some levels, and he'll be completely dull on high level being stuck as a thief.
The evil party is built up by :
Korgan : Dwarf single class fighter Edwin : Human single class mage Viconia : Elf single class cleric. Sarevok : Multi class possible *
With the exception of Sarevok (You get him very late, and some people don't enjoy nor play ToB) there are only single class characters that are evil. Adding a single class thief that isn't human would just be stupid IMO.
None of theese two are good at what they do. With the right equipment and potions you can get them to just about every lock in the game. But if you start adding items into the mix then it's not just the character anymore. And if you need to be babysat by items or potion you aren't good, you're decent (Imoen) or bad (Nalia).
Unless you play through BG2 without equipping any items on your party members, this argument makes no sense. Does giving a mage a Ring of Wizardry change their character? No, it's just something that enhances skills they already have.
As evil player you're not missing out on much when you compare to nalia.
I... have no idea what this means. Even Nalia is still capable of functioning as a basic thief; there are no evil NPCs who can serve this purpose, nor are there viable alternatives for opening locks (because you're not going to cast Knock on every single locked door and chest in the game) or disabling traps (short of just walking right into them).
And i'm all for asking for a single class thief, but please make it so that we can dual class. We have so many people here saying "We want a single class thief!" but let's get real here, single class thiefs aren't that good. So let's instead ask for a single class thief with either high wisdom or intelligence, so that you can dual class him when you reach the level you want, a little bit like Imoen in BG1.
You don't seem to understand how NPCs work in the BG games. To clarify: Good players tend to get the lion's share of EXP, gold and other rewards (higher reputations mean discounts at shops). To counter this, Evil players have the most powerful party members in the game: Viconia is the best cleric, Edwin is the best mage, Dorn and Sarevok are the best fighters. They're also all single-class, because they're meant to be the epitome of their respective categories. So why would you dual-class them? Especially when there are now enough evil NPCs for a fully-balanced party (Blackguard/Berserker/Thief/Cleric/Conjurer)?
You actually got all three of them wrong: Anomen becomes either Lawful Good or Chaotic Neutral; Viconia becomes True Neutral; Sarevok becomes Chaotic Good. Note that there isn't a single Good/Neutral -> Evil option on the list.
With the exception of Sarevok (You get him very late, and some people don't enjoy nor play ToB) there are only single class characters that are evil. Adding a single class thief that isn't human would just be stupid IMO.
Unless you're not meant to dual-class or convert them, in which case: too bad for you. You'll just have to make do with all the characters Good/Neutral parties already have.
I mean, seriously, there are four evil NPCs in total in BG2/ToB. And two of them can be converted. Can non-Evil players just check their entitled whining at the door and stop demanding more of what they've already got?
None of theese two are good at what they do. With the right equipment and potions you can get them to just about every lock in the game. But if you start adding items into the mix then it's not just the character anymore. And if you need to be babysat by items or potion you aren't good, you're decent (Imoen) or bad (Nalia).
Unless you play through BG2 without equipping any items on your party members, this argument makes no sense. Does giving a mage a Ring of Wizardry change their character? No, it's just something that enhances skills they already have.
As evil player you're not missing out on much when you compare to nalia.
I... have no idea what this means. Even Nalia is still capable of functioning as a basic thief; there are no evil NPCs who can serve this purpose, nor are there viable alternatives for opening locks (because you're not going to cast Knock on every single locked door and chest in the game) or disabling traps (short of just walking right into them).
And i'm all for asking for a single class thief, but please make it so that we can dual class. We have so many people here saying "We want a single class thief!" but let's get real here, single class thiefs aren't that good. So let's instead ask for a single class thief with either high wisdom or intelligence, so that you can dual class him when you reach the level you want, a little bit like Imoen in BG1.
You don't seem to understand how NPCs work in the BG games. To clarify: Good players tend to get the lion's share of EXP, gold and other rewards (higher reputations mean discounts at shops). To counter this, Evil players have the most powerful party members in the game: Viconia is the best cleric, Edwin is the best mage, Dorn and Sarevok are the best fighters. They're also all single-class, because they're meant to be the epitome of their respective categories. So why would you dual-class them? Especially when there are now enough evil NPCs for a fully-balanced party (Blackguard/Berserker/Thief/Cleric/Conjurer)?
You actually got all three of them wrong: Anomen becomes either Lawful Good or Chaotic Neutral; Viconia becomes True Neutral; Sarevok becomes Chaotic Good. Note that there isn't a single Good/Neutral -> Evil option on the list.
With the exception of Sarevok (You get him very late, and some people don't enjoy nor play ToB) there are only single class characters that are evil. Adding a single class thief that isn't human would just be stupid IMO.
Unless you're not meant to dual-class or convert them, in which case: too bad for you. You'll just have to make do with all the characters Good/Neutral parties already have.
I mean, seriously, there are four evil NPCs in total in BG2/ToB. And two of them can be converted. Can non-Evil players just check their entitled whining at the door and stop demanding more of what they've already got?
1.) I can make a level 2 thief -8 warrior dual class. Now if i add a couple of items he'll be an amazing thief! It doesn't work like that. Imoen can work well with potions and gear, but that doesn't make her a good thief. Yoshimo and Jan can work on their own without any required equipment.
2.) You get Imoen in spellhold, this is her biggest problem. And yes lockpick and Find traps are probably the two most used skills on a thief. But that doesn't change the fact that there are also set trap, hide in shadow and other skills. She is a decent thief with a nice lockpick and find trap. But she's missing out on so many things that Jan and Yoshimo get.
3.) Nalia is a pretty bad character. She is a mage so she is automatically powerful but that's about it. She bad thief skills and dual classed at a horrible level. The traps she can pick aren't deadly, and the ones that are deadly she can't touch most of the time. Knock spell and DUHM will take care of the locks without much problem.
4.) Viconia is the most powerful SINGLE CLASS CLERIC. Anomen is by far the better cleric than Viconia. I can agree with Korgan and edwin but Anomen (As annoying as he is) Does so much more than Viconia
You get Sarevok so late in the game, that by then most of your characters will be so powerful. So the question is if you want to kill someone 100% or 170%.
5.) There are no good rogues that are good alignment. There are no rogues that are evil alignment. There are two perfectly fine rogues that are neutral alignment. You know what the nice thing about those are? Both can use them!
And ofcourse a character that can dual class will be better an more optional than a character that can't. So why would they make us have less options by making him single class and not able to dual?
I'm fine with them giving us a Evil thief. But please make him so that you can dual class him.
[Edited] : Just to make clear. I play evil parties aswell. I pick Jan as my thief and that works well for me. When i play with a good alignment party i rarely pick Nalia because IMO she is annoying and a bad character. I don't pick Imoen either as i normally clear everything in Act2-3 and she will be very far behind. So what does that leave me with? Jan jansen!
Jan Jansen works fine with an evil party and a good party. People are more annoyed with his personality than anything else, as he is a powerhouse.
Neutral was ment to be the bridge between good and evil. Both of the alignments could pick from there to fill out their party.
There are no bards that are good or evil.
There are no GOOD rogues that are good or evil.
So there are four evil characters + several neutral they can also use.
And i'll fix the alignments on those characters. I Haven't played for a long time so wasn't too sure on that. Thank you for correcting me
You don't seem to understand how NPCs work in the BG games. To clarify: Good players tend to get the lion's share of EXP, gold and other rewards (higher reputations mean discounts at shops). To counter this, Evil players have the most powerful party members in the game: Viconia is the best cleric, Edwin is the best mage, Dorn and Sarevok are the best fighters.
1.Viconia is no where near the best cleric while Anomen and Aerie are dual/multi class clerics. Anomen is pretty much a pure cleric with decent fighting abilities anyway due to how exp points work.
2.Edwin being the best wizard is debatable. I think Imoen and Nalia give him a run for his money since they have better based defensive stats and better range weapon options. Yes, they both have thief levels, but lets be honest, they are basically pure wizards because they suffer from no exp penalties in BG2 or ToB.
3.Best fighter is debatable, even though I like Sarevok the most due to his deathbringer assault.. Mazzy and Keldorn (since you're including Dorn) can certainly give any other fighting in the game a run for their money.
They're also all single-class, because they're meant to be the epitome of their respective categories. So why would you dual-class them? Especially when there are now enough evil NPCs for a fully-balanced party (Blackguard/Berserker/Thief/Cleric/Conjurer)?
Because single class thieves suck compared to multi/dual class thieves? I'm not saying they are horrible, but they are "meh". Even in pen & paper AD&D, most people considered single class thieves mediocre.
I rather the new thief be multi class or a dual class fighter-> thief.
2.Edwin being the best wizard is debatable. I think Imoen and Nalia give him a run for his money since they have better based defensive stats and better range weapon options. Yes, they both have thief levels, but lets be honest, they are basically pure wizards because they suffer from no exp penalties in BG2 or ToB.
His amulet gives him a huge amount of extra spells, and his specialization another one. His intelligence is better than Imoen's, and I think better than Nalia's as well but I am not sure, and allows him to learn every spell he comes across - besides divination, which is the worst school anyway. He has no thief levels, yes, but being also a thief should not really affect on how good of a mage you are: thieves are not mages, after all.
1.) I can make a level 2 thief -8 warrior dual class. Now if i add a couple of items he'll be an amazing thief! It doesn't work like that.
Of course not, because a level 2 character is extremely limited no matter what their class is. But if you dual them at level 6 or 7, you effectively have enough overall skill points to beat 95% of all locks and traps.
Imoen can work well with potions and gear, but that doesn't make her a good thief. Yoshimo and Jan can work on their own without any required equipment.
Not really, no. Let's do a comparison:
Imoen starts with 95 in Open Locks and 85 in Find Traps. Jan starts with 95 in Open Locks and 105 in Find Traps. Yoshimo starts with 65 in Open Locks and 100 in Find Traps.
The only real difference between these three is that Jan and Yoshimo can improve their thief skills - and Yoshimo must do so, because that Open Locks score won't do much good - but past a certain point, you just don't need to go any further in order to have 100% success rate. All it takes is one ring to get Imoen to that point.
2.) You get Imoen in spellhold, this is her biggest problem. And yes lockpick and Find traps are probably the two most used skills on a thief. But that doesn't change the fact that there are also set trap, hide in shadow and other skills. She is a decent thief with a nice lockpick and find trap. But she's missing out on so many things that Jan and Yoshimo get.
Except that Jan is multiclass, so you can't max out all his skills simultaneously either.
3.) Nalia is a pretty bad character. She is a mage so she is automatically powerful but that's about it. She bad thief skills and dual classed at a horrible level. The traps she can pick aren't deadly, and the ones that are deadly she can't touch most of the time. Knock spell and DUHM will take care of the locks without much problem.
Unless you intend on resting every five minutes to restore your spells (because a room with three locked chests will require three castings of Knock), that's not a viable strategy.
4.) Viconia is the most powerful SINGLE CLASS CLERIC. Anomen is by far the better cleric than Viconia. I can agree with Korgan and edwin but Anomen (As annoying as he is) Does so much more than Viconia
Why, because he can melee? Viconia has 19 Dexterity, 18 Wisdom and 50% Magic Resistance - you can't replicate those stats on Anomen, even if you complete his quest successfully (that only gives him the WIS boost).
5.) There are no good rogues that are good alignment. There are no rogues that are evil alignment. There are two perfectly fine rogues that are neutral alignment. You know what the nice thing about those are? Both can use them!
I've said this before on this thread, but it bears repeating: alignment is a technicality, it's character that matters. Jaheira is True Neutral because the rules say druids need to be True Neutral, but for all intents and purposes she's Neutral Good: her dialogue, her backstory and her quests are all geared towards killing slavers, stopping corrupt Harpers, etc. It's the same with Faldorn: she's True Neutral too, but she goes around indiscriminately killing people in the name of "preserving nature" - that's more in line with Chaotic Evil than anything else.
Regardless of their alignment, Yoshimo fits in with an evil group; Jan does not. He doesn't act like he'd be okay with the things Korgan, Dorn and Edwin do on a regular basis, his quest lacks an "evil" path (ie: just kill Vaelag), he compares you and himself to Drizzt and Wulfgar, or Elminster and Volo. For all that his alignment reads Chaotic Neutral, he's not anything like Safana (who would fit into an evil party because she's primarily interested in her own agenda and likes to manipulate others).
And ofcourse a character that can dual class will be better an more optional than a character that can't. So why would they make us have less options by making him single class and not able to dual?
Because, as I already pointed out, that's not how evil NPCs work in BG2. Hell, that's not how any NPCs work in BG2 - you can't actually dual-class anyone but Sarevok, and doing so at that point in the game isn't a good idea.
Jan Jansen works fine with an evil party and a good party. People are more annoyed with his personality than anything else, as he is a powerhouse.
The reason people are annoyed with his personality is because, for evil players, he was the only viable thief in the game, and they were forced to take him along even though he's clearly designed to be light-hearted comic relief and that's not compatible with the other evil NPCs.
2.Edwin being the best wizard is debatable. I think Imoen and Nalia give him a run for his money since they have better based defensive stats and better range weapon options. Yes, they both have thief levels, but lets be honest, they are basically pure wizards because they suffer from no exp penalties in BG2 or ToB.
His amulet gives him a huge amount of extra spells, and his specialization another one.
All magic users get enough spell slots during higher levels (which is....most of BG2). I still find prefer Nalia and Imoen durability and their ability to use more equipment over extra spell slots.
well this discussion got pretty amazing, people are really taking this hard, in the begin i thought i would agree with @Shawne, then some of his answers didn't reflect what i think, and in the further replies others didn't also, so lemme take part on this discussion too:
1° - Imoen -> amazing thief, level 7 covering every base for party function, she has 95% in open lock and 85% detect trap. Yoshimo is even better than her and will keep the thief needs supplied until she's back.
By the way any upgrade to imoen dexterity 18 -> 19 will increase by 5 every thief skill, so if machine of the lum or another item raise her dexterity, she goes to 100% open lock and 90% detect traps (20 give even another extra 5% to open lock and detect trap).
Good thiefs are pretty well cared by the existence of Imoen (whom is an awesome mage also by the way).
Yoshimo is most an replacement for Imoen than an option. Jan is Neutral, while he does not complain on some evil acts he will complain about others and some will even make him leave and turn hostile on the party (kill the gnome patrol for the leader helmet in underdark).
2° - I'm also fond of have a dual class possibility, ok Sarevok can do that (in inverse to thief) but options are always welcome. Besides this will make the new char human (i'm gonna get pissed of if another elf/half-elf become the romanceable option). So we know it will be she, lesbian (or bissexual), evil and thief. I would like for options to cleric dual class, but i will be happy with mage dual also. Just hope we get a shadowdancer or assassin thief.
@Shawne about the alignment changes that @SionIV mentioned, i believe that's what he hope to get changed, however he edited his post, so maybe you're right and he just mistake the changes (by the way Sarevok become chaotic good, not neutral @SionIV)
By myself i'm happy with a change to true neutral in Viconia, she's a drow, while she's go whinning all the time about how life is unjust, to make a change in her personality from neutral evil to true neutral is already an great achievement in the short time of BG saga.
Sarevok has gonne a hellish experience, an radical change from evil to good is possible in his situation. He lost every possibility of fulfil the destiny he dreamed, he lost his lover Tamoko (and started to feel the loss now), he saw the consequence of an open scale war that once he tried to push (Saradust slaughter and the tethyr army we squash). In my view he's open to doubts that make possible a change.
However in Anomen situation, i agree with @SionIV pre-edited post, that guy has EVERYTHING to become evil, a shame such a change would go straight through the copyrights limitations. This is one of the few changes i believe Beamdog should ask WotC and ATARI permission to make.
About Evil get better NPCs i tend to reflect upon this, Edwin is really by far the best evil mage, more because he's the only specialist mage option, so +1 in all spell levels (now we have neera) and his necklace is overpower +2 in all spell levels in BG2 (in BG EE i believe it's only +1). But his problem isn't being evil in fact, but being incompatible with 2 other strong NPCs. If you take edwin and have Keldorn or Minsc, eventually they will come to clash.
Viconia is good but anomen is even better, Wisdom bonus is nice, but only affect level 1 to 4 spells in Baldur's Gate. Anomen can go so good or even better than other fighters (he can go grandmaster for example) without being an bad cleric.
Korgan is good, but so is Keldorn. In fact he's nothing special, but BG2 fighting characters just aren't well made enough to compete (Valygar being an Stalker, Mazzy with bad status and short sword proficience, Minsc being limited by his ranger class). He's the best tanker by far however.
Sarevok is... Sarevok, no need to explain further!
So you start a thread about a hypothetical thief that might be added to BG2ee and then the hypothetical thief should hypothetically not be evil but neutral, while there is already an abundance of (neutral) thiefs in the game, including the great Jan Jansen?
By myself i'm happy with a change to true neutral in Viconia, she's a drow, while she's go whinning all the time about how life is unjust, to make a change in her personality from neutral evil to true neutral is already an great achievement in the short time of BG saga.
Except that her conversion is tied to her romance - and as far as I know, she turns True Neutral even if your PC is evil and has no reason to want to change her.
However in Anomen situation, i agree with @SionIV pre-edited post, that guy has EVERYTHING to become evil, a shame such a change would go straight through the copyrights limitations. This is one of the few changes i believe Beamdog should ask WotC and ATARI permission to make.
I think that's a misreading of Anomen's character: failing his quest brings out the worst in him, but even at his worst he isn't malicious, he doesn't take pleasure in the suffering of others. It's the difference between Chaotic Neutral and any of the Evil alignments.
Viconia is good but anomen is even better, Wisdom bonus is nice, but only affect level 1 to 4 spells in Baldur's Gate. Anomen can go so good or even better than other fighters (he can go grandmaster for example) without being an bad cleric.
Wisdom isn't Viconia's only advantage - she also has innate magic resistance and 19 Dexterity to Anomen's 10. Again, this is the basic difference between Good parties and Evil parties: Good NPCs are jack-of-all-trades, they can do many things in an average or above-average way. Imoen and Nalia are mages with thief skills, Aerie is a mage/cleric, Mazzy is a pseudo-Paladin, Anomen can fight and heal, Minsc is a Ranger with Berserker powers, etc. Evil NPCs can only do one thing, but they do their respective things very, very well.
Korgan is good, but so is Keldorn. In fact he's nothing special, but BG2 fighting characters just aren't well made enough to compete (Valygar being an Stalker, Mazzy with bad status and short sword proficience, Minsc being limited by his ranger class). He's the best tanker by far however.
Korgan's good. Keldorn is better. And Dorn will outperform them both, especially if the Blackguard kit has more surprises for higher levels in BG2:EE.
The Dexterity isn't that important. You can give him the gauntlets of dexterity to boost it up to 18. The difference between 18-19-20 isn't anything except thief skills which none of them have. So him having 18 and her having 19 doesn't matter. You won't be using ranged on him anyway.
2.) 16 constitution Vs 8.
This is much more important than dexterity, and harder to fix. Yes you can give her the belt that raises constitution, but then she can't have a strength belt on her aswell.
3.) 18/52 Strength Vs 10.
Anomen doesn't need a belt at the start of the game to fight well. He can carry all the gear he wants and does very well in melee.
4.) 50 Magic resistance.
It's great, i'll admit that. It's one of the things that i really like about Viconia. But it isn't that hard to get high magic resistance in this game. And with Chaotic command, death ward and all other protection spells clerics have to pick, you can save yourself from most annoying spells. Also with Viconias low constitution, if she fails a save vs a high damage spell she'll get fried.
5.) Wisdom and spells.
Viconia has more spell and is the better cleric here, no doubt about that. But once you get to higher level the difference will be much smaller. End game there really is no difference here.
6.) Warrior / Cleric VS pure cleric.
Anomen can beat face in. He is a great fighter once you put his buffs up. Give him FoA or a hammer and he will destroy things. He has better fighting skills and more APR than Viconia. You can give Viconia 25 strength and some neat equipment, but she'll still be behind Anomen by quite a bit.
7.) Good Vs Evil turn undead.
I know some people like to control undead instead of destroying them. But IMO destroying undeads makes life so much easier. Sometimes i change Viconias alignment to neutral because i really don't like to take control over them. Yes you can wish a horde of vampires and control them, but the time it takes to do that you can as easily Horrid wilt them and they all die anyway.
8.) Holy smite Vs Unholy Blight.
Holy smite is much better in Baldur's gate because you don't fight that many good alignment enemies.
Viconia is the better cleric, no doubt about that. But as a whole package and as a character, Anomen is simply the better choise.
[Edited] :
There is no way that a blackguard will ever become better than an Inquisitor. In a game with that much magic (Baldur's gate 2) an inqusitor will always be the best out of them all.
By myself i'm happy with a change to true neutral in Viconia, she's a drow, while she's go whinning all the time about how life is unjust, to make a change in her personality from neutral evil to true neutral is already an great achievement in the short time of BG saga.
Except that her conversion is tied to her romance - and as far as I know, she turns True Neutral even if your PC is evil and has no reason to want to change her.
That's a change in Viconia not in the main char, if someone does not roleplay his character well we can't guilt the engine for run it's proper course. The slaughter in Saradush really had an strong impact on Viconia, that's not something the PC did but something she experienced by herself.
The engine as said has it's limitations, if the player does not respect it we can do nothing to change that. I would love banter checks over the game to bind or not the redemption option for viconia, but i don't know if that's even possible.
However in Anomen situation, i agree with @SionIV pre-edited post, that guy has EVERYTHING to become evil, a shame such a change would go straight through the copyrights limitations. This is one of the few changes i believe Beamdog should ask WotC and ATARI permission to make.
I think that's a misreading of Anomen's character: failing his quest brings out the worst in him, but even at his worst he isn't malicious, he doesn't take pleasure in the suffering of others. It's the difference between Chaotic Neutral and any of the Evil alignments.
Anomen, specific the Chaotic Neutral Anomen, is one of the characters i like most, thus i made tons of playgames with him and i know him very well. Believe me when i say he's evil. He even assumes during the romances that he has an strong evil side (and his proximity to main char comes in many reason for this similarity between them both.
See for example the drunken being robbed in the Harper quest, where he simply does not care for another person live as that will not bring glory to him. There are tons of examples in the game but i don't play BG2 for a long time atm, so i will need to replay him again to remember other moments of his darkside.
He has potential to overcome this evil he has inside, but also he can give himself to this evil, and he's much more fun as an NPC when he does. He don't need to promote evil, he don't need tobe even aware that he become evil, the beautiful in Anomen behavior is that he's not a plain example of neutral evil alignment (BG tend to reduce alignments to black and white and there's more in alignments than that).
Viconia is good but anomen is even better, Wisdom bonus is nice, but only affect level 1 to 4 spells in Baldur's Gate. Anomen can go so good or even better than other fighters (he can go grandmaster for example) without being an bad cleric.
Wisdom isn't Viconia's only advantage - she also has innate magic resistance and 19 Dexterity to Anomen's 10. Again, this is the basic difference between Good parties and Evil parties: Good NPCs are jack-of-all-trades, they can do many things in an average or above-average way. Imoen and Nalia are mages with thief skills, Aerie is a mage/cleric, Mazzy is a pseudo-Paladin, Anomen can fight and heal, Minsc is a Ranger with Berserker powers, etc. Evil NPCs can only do one thing, but they do their respective things very, very well.give himself
Dex 19 isn't different from dex 18, except for thiefs, and we can give gloves of dexterity to Anomen if needed. Her innate magic resistance as said before is really a diference, what make Viconia truly unique and valuable as an NPC, but she's not superior to Anomen in any way. they're just different and adjust to different kind of parties.
The fact Nalia sucks and Edwin is overpowered doesn't mean that every Good NPC sucks and every Evil NPC rocks. Mazzy sucks beucase she sucks, because she has proficience in short sword being an warrior, beucase her strengh and other stats sucks, because she has proficience in short bow when halflings normally have innate bonus for slings. Aerie does not suck, an cleric/mage can be a serious power in late game, she will take long to get there, but cleric spells can go inside Contingency spells (and chain contingency) and also in spell triggers, and this is a ubber ability.
Korgan is good, but so is Keldorn. In fact he's nothing special, but BG2 fighting characters just aren't well made enough to compete (Valygar being an Stalker, Mazzy with bad status and short sword proficience, Minsc being limited by his ranger class). He's the best tanker by far however.
Korgan's good. Keldorn is better. And Dorn will outperform them both, especially if the Blackguard kit has more surprises for higher levels in BG2:EE.
I disagree, korgan is so good as Keldorn, and in many situations keldorn will be better (even more after holy avenger is in his hands). Dorn is a nice NPC, but nothing special i assure you. His 19 strengh can impress in BG, but in BG2 so many items raise your strengh that his oversized stat will not make an huge difference.
The game ALSO needs an additional evil aligned party member.
Yes, the game needs a single class thief.
Does said thief need to be evil? It would be good to have another evil character, but its not absolutely necessary. A thief is a thief, its alignment doesn't matter to me. It could be good, evil, purple polka dot, and everything in between. I still would still use it. Hell, I use Viconia in a good party, even if she might not get along with some of the other party members.
Matter for evil parties, as reputation 1 make neutral and good NPCs to leave the party (permanently). That's the great issue that motivate the evil thief.
Reputation is an issue of its own: there are a lot of ways to increase it - hell, just bringing an old man a book is enough - while very few of decrease, short of rampant murder. If you want to roleplay a sophisticated villain who does not slaughter people on the streets, you will find your equally villainous companions leaving your presence soon.
The reputation system always had it's flaws in Baldur's gate. Also being evil doesn't mean you have 5 in reputation, and i wish the game could take this into consideration. Most of my evil playthroughs end up with anything from 8 to 14 in reputation.
That's a change in Viconia not in the main char, if someone does not roleplay his character well we can't guilt the engine for run it's proper course. The slaughter in Saradush really had an strong impact on Viconia, that's not something the PC did but something she experienced by herself.
Her change is triggered by dialogue the player initiates - she doesn't just spontaneously convert to True Neutral. If you don't romance her (or use a female PC), she doesn't change at all.
See for example the drunken being robbed in the Harper quest, where he simply does not care for another person live as that will not bring glory to him. There are tons of examples in the game but i don't play BG2 for a long time atm, so i will need to replay him again to remember other moments of his darkside.
That's still more consistent with a Chaotic Neutral personality than Neutral Evil - he doesn't intervene because it doesn't concern him, but it's not like he goes and robs the drunk himself.
The larger issue with Anomen, though, is that there's no inherent advantage to botching his quest. He doesn't get any stat boosts, he doesn't improve in any way. If, for example, you could convert Rasaad to a Dark Moon Monk, he'd have an entirely different set of abilities to reflect the change. From a gameplay perspective, Anomen remains exactly the same despite the alignment change.
Dex 19 isn't different from dex 18, except for thiefs, and we can give gloves of dexterity to Anomen if needed. Her innate magic resistance as said before is really a diference, what make Viconia truly unique and valuable as an NPC, but she's not superior to Anomen in any way. they're just different and adjust to different kind of parties.
It's simple numbers: she has higher Wisdom, higher Dexterity and a 50% change to negate any harmful spell cast her way. Even if you give Anomen 18 DEX, he can't match her AC or her spell repertoire. Sure, he has Fighter talents too, but if you've got him on the front lines you can't have him casting spells during a battle.
I disagree, korgan is so good as Keldorn, and in many situations keldorn will be better (even more after holy avenger is in his hands). Dorn is a nice NPC, but nothing special i assure you. His 19 strengh can impress in BG, but in BG2 so many items raise your strengh that his oversized stat will not make an huge difference.
In the end, it's a question of point of view.
Nope. It's a question of what these characters are capable of, and that comes down to pure numbers and facts. To wit: Korgan has higher STR, DEX and CON than Keldorn. On the surface of it, this makes Korgan seem like the better choice, except that as an Inquisitor, Keldorn is also immune to Charm and Hold spells. (Korgan can gain similar immunity through Berserker Rage, but that's always temporary and Raging has its own drawbacks.)
Dorn, on the other hand, has higher STR and DEX than either of them, and he's immune to level drain. Tell me that doesn't make a difference when facing vampires or Mind Flayers.
The Dexterity isn't that important. You can give him the gauntlets of dexterity to boost it up to 18. The difference between 18-19-20 isn't anything except thief skills which none of them have. So him having 18 and her having 19 doesn't matter. You won't be using ranged on him anyway.
2.) 16 constitution Vs 8.
This is much more important than dexterity, and harder to fix. Yes you can give her the belt that raises constitution, but then she can't have a strength belt on her aswell.
3.) 18/52 Strength Vs 10.
Anomen doesn't need a belt at the start of the game to fight well. He can carry all the gear he wants and does very well in melee.
4.) 50 Magic resistance.
It's great, i'll admit that. It's one of the things that i really like about Viconia. But it isn't that hard to get high magic resistance in this game. And with Chaotic command, death ward and all other protection spells clerics have to pick, you can save yourself from most annoying spells. Also with Viconias low constitution, if she fails a save vs a high damage spell she'll get fried.
5.) Wisdom and spells.
Viconia has more spell and is the better cleric here, no doubt about that. But once you get to higher level the difference will be much smaller. End game there really is no difference here.
6.) Warrior / Cleric VS pure cleric.
Anomen can beat face in. He is a great fighter once you put his buffs up. Give him FoA or a hammer and he will destroy things. He has better fighting skills and more APR than Viconia. You can give Viconia 25 strength and some neat equipment, but she'll still be behind Anomen by quite a bit.
7.) Good Vs Evil turn undead.
I know some people like to control undead instead of destroying them. But IMO destroying undeads makes life so much easier. Sometimes i change Viconias alignment to neutral because i really don't like to take control over them. Yes you can wish a horde of vampires and control them, but the time it takes to do that you can as easily Horrid wilt them and they all die anyway.
8.) Holy smite Vs Unholy Blight.
Holy smite is much better in Baldur's gate because you don't fight that many good alignment enemies.
Viconia is the better cleric, no doubt about that. But as a whole package and as a character, Anomen is simply the better choise.
[Edited] :
There is no way that a blackguard will ever become better than an Inquisitor. In a game with that much magic (Baldur's gate 2) an inqusitor will always be the best out of them all.
I don't know why her strength is really that important here. Viconia is clearly best using ranged attacks and you can always give her a strength boosting item for any sling use you need out of her. Other than her constitution, which effects wise is really is no different than Aerie's or Cernd's, the biggest downside with Viconia is
you can't have Keldorn in the party with her for (at least not for the whole game). For me thats the big downside, not her constitution or strength. With Anomen you can at least avoid a conflict with Keldorn if you let him become a member of the order, though if you don't they will fight it out.
The downside of having both Anomen and Keldorn in the party though is only one can use the Gauntlets of Dexterity, though both really do benefit a lot from them.
I don't even think holy smite vs unholy blight comes into it, as even have her use holy smite because she isn't in the AOE when it comes down.
"But it isn't that hard to get high magic resistance in this game"
While there are items that give large bonuses to elemental resistances, there aren't that many items that give big magic resistance bonuses. Carsomyr obviously can only be used by a few NPC's. Rings of Gaxx (which assuming you use the exploit and get 2 is a combined 20%), human flesh +5 (20% resistance but only usable by evil characters), then a few rings and amulets and a shield that give 5-10%. The fact that Viconia starts out SoA with 65% magic resistance in BG2 is very helpful at preventing the likelihood of her dying due to spells. It also means that as you gradually acquire these items you can give them to your other characters.
Comments
EDIT: Point being, if she needs two rings to be a competent thief, she's not really a good thief. That also means she's losing some effectiveness as a mage, since she can't wear the Ring of Wizardry.
(Charname, Dorn, Korgan, Viconia, Edwin, Evil Thief)
When I played evil I had to make a thief npc along with my pc just so that I could have a full evil party.
Yes, I know that doesn't count, but I just wanted to point that out.
Besides, if we're evil and thief we can't align with Bodhi, what is truly sad, however as i made Valen nearly an official mod in my games, that's a bit fixed. The only problem comes from her overpower being that have to be countered by giving protection from undead to half of the game NPCs.
I use Anomen in most of my evil runs as well. Despite the fact he leaves in reputation 2 or 1 (what i fix with mods), he don't complain to most of the evil acts an evil party can commit (chaotic neutral anomen, just to state).
While we can't change old NPCs, could the fallen anomen get some table changes (not content)? As being turned neutral evil instead of chaotic neutral, he could get some bonus (as+2 wisdom, +1 strengh and +1 constitution instead of +4 wisdom for lawful good anomen), and even the same ammount of XP you get if you enter the order. I ask this cos, by fail in the radiant heart test, to me that isn't a failure from roleplay perspective, and shoudn't behave like that. I choose to fail the test most of the times (in fact i hate the lawful good Anomen and really like the chaotic neutral Anomen).
It's a sacrillege to speak against Jan, put him and Anomen (and maybe minsc) in the same party and you will have a comedy show along with your game. Serious, it will be most funny experience you gonna get from a game, just meet "Ano, the dumb half-orc and his catastrophic misadventures"!
By the way for good parties, even neutral ones, Imoen fit totally the basic needs for a thief (while yoshimo keep the party healthy enough until you get her). No matter if she was dualed at level 7, she has 95% in Detect traps and 95% in lockpick, and that is more than suffice to keep the adventure running, the only difference from her to a pure thief is the bonus xp you get from using thief skills at highter levels.
Edit: fix some improper language spells.
Good thief - Imoen, Nalia.
None of theese two are good at what they do. With the right equipment and potions you can get them to just about every lock in the game. But if you start adding items into the mix then it's not just the character anymore. And if you need to be babysat by items or potion you aren't good, you're decent (Imoen) or bad (Nalia).
Neutral thief - Jan.
This guy is the best thief in the game, and also the best multiclass you could wish for. Yes he has a very special personality that you have to survive, but character wise he is amazing. Good starting gear, and after that you can level up thief skills so you can drop his equipment as needed.
Bad thief - None.
There are no bad thiefs.
Yes it's sad that evil parties doesn't have a thief except jan. But seriously, there are no good thiefs in the game except Yoshimo and Jan. So if we remove Jan and Joshimo from the equation, we got a shitty thief (Nalia) Until we get to spellhold and can pick up a decent thief (Imoen). As evil player you're not missing out on much when you compare to nalia. And when you can pick up Imoen, you'll have knock spells and everything else to get through that part without problem. The only point i missed a thief on the evil side when i played the game, was RP reason.
And i'm all for asking for a single class thief, but please make it so that we can dual class. We have so many people here saying "We want a single class thief!" but let's get real here, single class thiefs aren't that good. So let's instead ask for a single class thief with either high wisdom or intelligence, so that you can dual class him when you reach the level you want, a little bit like Imoen in BG1.
Imagine our new thief like Sarevok (Just with less godlike stats ofcourse). You have two options to dual class him into. That way everyone would win, you can keep him single class or dual him if you feel like it.
And about changing alignment.
Anomen -> Neutral
Viconia -> Neutral
Sarevok -> Good
The problem with changing alignment in the middle of the game is that it can ruin the character. It might feel forced and hurried along. They did it great with Anomen, Viconia and Sarevok but we had romances, or two whole games of information and character progress to slowly move them over.
If they spend time with the changing alignment it would be awesome. But if it's going to come second hand and have less time then i rather they not.
In my opinion i would like them to give us an evil thief, with the option to turn him to neutral. Just make it so that he doesn't run away by reputation if possible.
In the end i just hope we get a well written character.
[Edited] : I didn't mention yoshimo because of Plot related issues.
Human Male - (Neutral, Lawful) Evil.
16 Strength
17 Dexterity
13 Constitution
9 Intelligence
17 Wisdom
12 Charisma
Something like this could be possible. The reason i picked 17 wisdom instead of intelligence is because we already got so many T/M in the game. This guy got a good score (84) and he can dual class to cleric from the start. He can also dual class to Fighter if he gets 1 point of strength (Lumes).
With BGEE you could make it so that if he dual class to a cleric he would turn into a Cleric of Mask.
Now for what will probably happen.
Elf Male - Neutral Evil.
12-15 Strength
19 Dexterity
12-14 Constitution
10-13 Intelligence
8-10 Wisdom
10-13 Charisma.
They will pick elf for you, so you can't dual class. They will give you the 19 dexterity to make him the 'Perfect' Thief. But the 19 dexterity doesn't matter in BG2 once you gain some levels, and he'll be completely dull on high level being stuck as a thief.
The evil party is built up by :
Korgan : Dwarf single class fighter
Edwin : Human single class mage
Viconia : Elf single class cleric.
Sarevok : Multi class possible *
With the exception of Sarevok (You get him very late, and some people don't enjoy nor play ToB) there are only single class characters that are evil. Adding a single class thief that isn't human would just be stupid IMO.
I mean, seriously, there are four evil NPCs in total in BG2/ToB. And two of them can be converted. Can non-Evil players just check their entitled whining at the door and stop demanding more of what they've already got?
2.) You get Imoen in spellhold, this is her biggest problem. And yes lockpick and Find traps are probably the two most used skills on a thief. But that doesn't change the fact that there are also set trap, hide in shadow and other skills. She is a decent thief with a nice lockpick and find trap. But she's missing out on so many things that Jan and Yoshimo get.
3.) Nalia is a pretty bad character. She is a mage so she is automatically powerful but that's about it. She bad thief skills and dual classed at a horrible level. The traps she can pick aren't deadly, and the ones that are deadly she can't touch most of the time. Knock spell and DUHM will take care of the locks without much problem.
4.) Viconia is the most powerful SINGLE CLASS CLERIC. Anomen is by far the better cleric than Viconia. I can agree with Korgan and edwin but Anomen (As annoying as he is) Does so much more than Viconia
You get Sarevok so late in the game, that by then most of your characters will be so powerful. So the question is if you want to kill someone 100% or 170%.
5.) There are no good rogues that are good alignment. There are no rogues that are evil alignment. There are two perfectly fine rogues that are neutral alignment. You know what the nice thing about those are? Both can use them!
And ofcourse a character that can dual class will be better an more optional than a character that can't. So why would they make us have less options by making him single class and not able to dual?
I'm fine with them giving us a Evil thief. But please make him so that you can dual class him.
[Edited] : Just to make clear. I play evil parties aswell. I pick Jan as my thief and that works well for me. When i play with a good alignment party i rarely pick Nalia because IMO she is annoying and a bad character. I don't pick Imoen either as i normally clear everything in Act2-3 and she will be very far behind. So what does that leave me with? Jan jansen!
Jan Jansen works fine with an evil party and a good party. People are more annoyed with his personality than anything else, as he is a powerhouse.
Neutral was ment to be the bridge between good and evil. Both of the alignments could pick from there to fill out their party.
There are no bards that are good or evil.
There are no GOOD rogues that are good or evil.
So there are four evil characters + several neutral they can also use.
And i'll fix the alignments on those characters. I Haven't played for a long time so wasn't too sure on that. Thank you for correcting me
2.Edwin being the best wizard is debatable. I think Imoen and Nalia give him a run for his money since they have better based defensive stats and better range weapon options. Yes, they both have thief levels, but lets be honest, they are basically pure wizards because they suffer from no exp penalties in BG2 or ToB.
3.Best fighter is debatable, even though I like Sarevok the most due to his deathbringer assault.. Mazzy and Keldorn (since you're including Dorn) can certainly give any other fighting in the game a run for their money. Because single class thieves suck compared to multi/dual class thieves? I'm not saying they are horrible, but they are "meh". Even in pen & paper AD&D, most people considered single class thieves mediocre.
I rather the new thief be multi class or a dual class fighter-> thief.
So, yes, Edwin pretty much is the best mage.
Imoen starts with 95 in Open Locks and 85 in Find Traps.
Jan starts with 95 in Open Locks and 105 in Find Traps.
Yoshimo starts with 65 in Open Locks and 100 in Find Traps.
The only real difference between these three is that Jan and Yoshimo can improve their thief skills - and Yoshimo must do so, because that Open Locks score won't do much good - but past a certain point, you just don't need to go any further in order to have 100% success rate. All it takes is one ring to get Imoen to that point. Except that Jan is multiclass, so you can't max out all his skills simultaneously either. Unless you intend on resting every five minutes to restore your spells (because a room with three locked chests will require three castings of Knock), that's not a viable strategy. Why, because he can melee? Viconia has 19 Dexterity, 18 Wisdom and 50% Magic Resistance - you can't replicate those stats on Anomen, even if you complete his quest successfully (that only gives him the WIS boost). I've said this before on this thread, but it bears repeating: alignment is a technicality, it's character that matters. Jaheira is True Neutral because the rules say druids need to be True Neutral, but for all intents and purposes she's Neutral Good: her dialogue, her backstory and her quests are all geared towards killing slavers, stopping corrupt Harpers, etc. It's the same with Faldorn: she's True Neutral too, but she goes around indiscriminately killing people in the name of "preserving nature" - that's more in line with Chaotic Evil than anything else.
Regardless of their alignment, Yoshimo fits in with an evil group; Jan does not. He doesn't act like he'd be okay with the things Korgan, Dorn and Edwin do on a regular basis, his quest lacks an "evil" path (ie: just kill Vaelag), he compares you and himself to Drizzt and Wulfgar, or Elminster and Volo. For all that his alignment reads Chaotic Neutral, he's not anything like Safana (who would fit into an evil party because she's primarily interested in her own agenda and likes to manipulate others). Because, as I already pointed out, that's not how evil NPCs work in BG2. Hell, that's not how any NPCs work in BG2 - you can't actually dual-class anyone but Sarevok, and doing so at that point in the game isn't a good idea. The reason people are annoyed with his personality is because, for evil players, he was the only viable thief in the game, and they were forced to take him along even though he's clearly designed to be light-hearted comic relief and that's not compatible with the other evil NPCs. Both alignments could pick Neutral; prior to BG2:EE, evil alignments had no choice. What does that have to do with anything? Your definition of "good rogue" is problematic. Imoen is a good rogue who can function all the way to the end of ToB.
1° - Imoen -> amazing thief, level 7 covering every base for party function, she has 95% in open lock and 85% detect trap. Yoshimo is even better than her and will keep the thief needs supplied until she's back.
By the way any upgrade to imoen dexterity 18 -> 19 will increase by 5 every thief skill, so if machine of the lum or another item raise her dexterity, she goes to 100% open lock and 90% detect traps (20 give even another extra 5% to open lock and detect trap).
Good thiefs are pretty well cared by the existence of Imoen (whom is an awesome mage also by the way).
Yoshimo is most an replacement for Imoen than an option. Jan is Neutral, while he does not complain on some evil acts he will complain about others and some will even make him leave and turn hostile on the party (kill the gnome patrol for the leader helmet in underdark).
2° - I'm also fond of have a dual class possibility, ok Sarevok can do that (in inverse to thief) but options are always welcome. Besides this will make the new char human (i'm gonna get pissed of if another elf/half-elf become the romanceable option). So we know it will be she, lesbian (or bissexual), evil and thief. I would like for options to cleric dual class, but i will be happy with mage dual also. Just hope we get a shadowdancer or assassin thief.
@Shawne about the alignment changes that @SionIV mentioned, i believe that's what he hope to get changed, however he edited his post, so maybe you're right and he just mistake the changes (by the way Sarevok become chaotic good, not neutral @SionIV)
By myself i'm happy with a change to true neutral in Viconia, she's a drow, while she's go whinning all the time about how life is unjust, to make a change in her personality from neutral evil to true neutral is already an great achievement in the short time of BG saga.
Sarevok has gonne a hellish experience, an radical change from evil to good is possible in his situation. He lost every possibility of fulfil the destiny he dreamed, he lost his lover Tamoko (and started to feel the loss now), he saw the consequence of an open scale war that once he tried to push (Saradust slaughter and the tethyr army we squash). In my view he's open to doubts that make possible a change.
However in Anomen situation, i agree with @SionIV pre-edited post, that guy has EVERYTHING to become evil, a shame such a change would go straight through the copyrights limitations. This is one of the few changes i believe Beamdog should ask WotC and ATARI permission to make.
About Evil get better NPCs i tend to reflect upon this, Edwin is really by far the best evil mage, more because he's the only specialist mage option, so +1 in all spell levels (now we have neera) and his necklace is overpower +2 in all spell levels in BG2 (in BG EE i believe it's only +1). But his problem isn't being evil in fact, but being incompatible with 2 other strong NPCs. If you take edwin and have Keldorn or Minsc, eventually they will come to clash.
Viconia is good but anomen is even better, Wisdom bonus is nice, but only affect level 1 to 4 spells in Baldur's Gate. Anomen can go so good or even better than other fighters (he can go grandmaster for example) without being an bad cleric.
Korgan is good, but so is Keldorn. In fact he's nothing special, but BG2 fighting characters just aren't well made enough to compete (Valygar being an Stalker, Mazzy with bad status and short sword proficience, Minsc being limited by his ranger class). He's the best tanker by far however.
Sarevok is... Sarevok, no need to explain further!
Fail
The new thief will be evil, but a singularly mediocre one.
1.) 19 dexterity Vs 10.
The Dexterity isn't that important. You can give him the gauntlets of dexterity to boost it up to 18. The difference between 18-19-20 isn't anything except thief skills which none of them have. So him having 18 and her having 19 doesn't matter. You won't be using ranged on him anyway.
2.) 16 constitution Vs 8.
This is much more important than dexterity, and harder to fix. Yes you can give her the belt that raises constitution, but then she can't have a strength belt on her aswell.
3.) 18/52 Strength Vs 10.
Anomen doesn't need a belt at the start of the game to fight well. He can carry all the gear he wants and does very well in melee.
4.) 50 Magic resistance.
It's great, i'll admit that. It's one of the things that i really like about Viconia. But it isn't that hard to get high magic resistance in this game. And with Chaotic command, death ward and all other protection spells clerics have to pick, you can save yourself from most annoying spells. Also with Viconias low constitution, if she fails a save vs a high damage spell she'll get fried.
5.) Wisdom and spells.
Viconia has more spell and is the better cleric here, no doubt about that. But once you get to higher level the difference will be much smaller. End game there really is no difference here.
6.) Warrior / Cleric VS pure cleric.
Anomen can beat face in. He is a great fighter once you put his buffs up. Give him FoA or a hammer and he will destroy things. He has better fighting skills and more APR than Viconia. You can give Viconia 25 strength and some neat equipment, but she'll still be behind Anomen by quite a bit.
7.) Good Vs Evil turn undead.
I know some people like to control undead instead of destroying them. But IMO destroying undeads makes life so much easier. Sometimes i change Viconias alignment to neutral because i really don't like to take control over them. Yes you can wish a horde of vampires and control them, but the time it takes to do that you can as easily Horrid wilt them and they all die anyway.
8.) Holy smite Vs Unholy Blight.
Holy smite is much better in Baldur's gate because you don't fight that many good alignment enemies.
----------------------------------------------------
Viconia is the better cleric, no doubt about that. But as a whole package and as a character, Anomen is simply the better choise.
[Edited] :
There is no way that a blackguard will ever become better than an Inquisitor. In a game with that much magic (Baldur's gate 2) an inqusitor will always be the best out of them all.
The engine as said has it's limitations, if the player does not respect it we can do nothing to change that. I would love banter checks over the game to bind or not the redemption option for viconia, but i don't know if that's even possible. Anomen, specific the Chaotic Neutral Anomen, is one of the characters i like most, thus i made tons of playgames with him and i know him very well. Believe me when i say he's evil. He even assumes during the romances that he has an strong evil side (and his proximity to main char comes in many reason for this similarity between them both.
See for example the drunken being robbed in the Harper quest, where he simply does not care for another person live as that will not bring glory to him. There are tons of examples in the game but i don't play BG2 for a long time atm, so i will need to replay him again to remember other moments of his darkside.
He has potential to overcome this evil he has inside, but also he can give himself to this evil, and he's much more fun as an NPC when he does. He don't need to promote evil, he don't need tobe even aware that he become evil, the beautiful in Anomen behavior is that he's not a plain example of neutral evil alignment (BG tend to reduce alignments to black and white and there's more in alignments than that). Dex 19 isn't different from dex 18, except for thiefs, and we can give gloves of dexterity to Anomen if needed. Her innate magic resistance as said before is really a diference, what make Viconia truly unique and valuable as an NPC, but she's not superior to Anomen in any way. they're just different and adjust to different kind of parties.
The fact Nalia sucks and Edwin is overpowered doesn't mean that every Good NPC sucks and every Evil NPC rocks. Mazzy sucks beucase she sucks, because she has proficience in short sword being an warrior, beucase her strengh and other stats sucks, because she has proficience in short bow when halflings normally have innate bonus for slings. Aerie does not suck, an cleric/mage can be a serious power in late game, she will take long to get there, but cleric spells can go inside Contingency spells (and chain contingency) and also in spell triggers, and this is a ubber ability.
I disagree, korgan is so good as Keldorn, and in many situations keldorn will be better (even more after holy avenger is in his hands). Dorn is a nice NPC, but nothing special i assure you. His 19 strengh can impress in BG, but in BG2 so many items raise your strengh that his oversized stat will not make an huge difference.
In the end, it's a question of point of view.
Edit: Because Jan items give damage reduction also
Does said thief need to be evil? It would be good to have another evil character, but its not absolutely necessary. A thief is a thief, its alignment doesn't matter to me. It could be good, evil, purple polka dot, and everything in between. I still would still use it. Hell, I use Viconia in a good party, even if she might not get along with some of the other party members.
The larger issue with Anomen, though, is that there's no inherent advantage to botching his quest. He doesn't get any stat boosts, he doesn't improve in any way. If, for example, you could convert Rasaad to a Dark Moon Monk, he'd have an entirely different set of abilities to reflect the change. From a gameplay perspective, Anomen remains exactly the same despite the alignment change. It's simple numbers: she has higher Wisdom, higher Dexterity and a 50% change to negate any harmful spell cast her way. Even if you give Anomen 18 DEX, he can't match her AC or her spell repertoire. Sure, he has Fighter talents too, but if you've got him on the front lines you can't have him casting spells during a battle. Nope. It's a question of what these characters are capable of, and that comes down to pure numbers and facts. To wit: Korgan has higher STR, DEX and CON than Keldorn. On the surface of it, this makes Korgan seem like the better choice, except that as an Inquisitor, Keldorn is also immune to Charm and Hold spells. (Korgan can gain similar immunity through Berserker Rage, but that's always temporary and Raging has its own drawbacks.)
Dorn, on the other hand, has higher STR and DEX than either of them, and he's immune to level drain. Tell me that doesn't make a difference when facing vampires or Mind Flayers.
I don't even think holy smite vs unholy blight comes into it, as even have her use holy smite because she isn't in the AOE when it comes down.
"But it isn't that hard to get high magic resistance in this game"
While there are items that give large bonuses to elemental resistances, there aren't that many items that give big magic resistance bonuses. Carsomyr obviously can only be used by a few NPC's. Rings of Gaxx (which assuming you use the exploit and get 2 is a combined 20%), human flesh +5 (20% resistance but only usable by evil characters), then a few rings and amulets and a shield that give 5-10%. The fact that Viconia starts out SoA with 65% magic resistance in BG2 is very helpful at preventing the likelihood of her dying due to spells. It also means that as you gradually acquire these items you can give them to your other characters.