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Should Clerics and Druids get Minor Spell Sequencer and Spell Sequencer?

bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
In the game, Cleric/Mage can put cleric spells into a sequencer. In terms of modding, it should be very straight forward to implement sequencer for clerics and druids. Should divine spellcasters get access to sequencers? Some interesting combos are:

Minor Sequencer:
1. Bless + Chant
2. DUHM + Aid
3. Doom + Hold Person/Charm Person/Mammal

Sequencer:
1. Holy Smite x3
2. Call Woodland Beings x3 / Call Wooland Beings x2 + Defense Harmony
3. Call Lightning x3 (Finally this spell has some use!)
4. Holy Power + DUHM x2
  1. Should Clerics and Druids get Minor Spell Sequencer and Spell Sequencer?88 votes
    1. Yes
      23.86%
    2. No
      76.14%
«1

Comments

  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited July 2013
    I think Minor would work, the normal one might just be a little too much.

    Or, Maybe extend Avenger Druid to get Spell Sequencer as a Level 7 spell...
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,754
    edited July 2013
    Well, taking account the change of the avatar, bbear should get the new name also, ccat. Definitely.

    And if talking seriously, because in the game Clerics/Mages have an ability to put divine spells into a sequencer, clerics and druids shoul have the same ability. I think it would hardly be "too much" if compared with, say, 3x Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting or Pierce Shield + 2x Abi Dalzim's Horrid Wilting or Greater Malison + Doom + Chromatic Orb.

    But from the D&D point of view, it is not logical.

    The "spell sequencer" spell is named after Simbul, one of the most powerful spellcasters in Faerun, a wild and powerful sorceress. So, this spell is available only to those who casts arcane magic, not divine.
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    If I am to change my login name, it should be liliger. It's a cross-breed of lion and liger (lion+tiger).
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    Don't they get the recall spells as replacement?
    I don't really see the need for this
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    Wonderous Recall returns 2 previous cast spells level 5 or lower, which is unrelated to this topic. The purpose of the minor and the sequencer is to give speed and power to cleric and druid spellcasting on par with mages. Wizards have greater power with lvl8 spell trigger and lvl9 chain contingency.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    Kaltzor said:

    Or, Maybe extend Avenger Druid to get Spell Sequencer as a Level 7 spell...

    OH WOW this is freaking brilliant!!
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2013
    No.

    Why not just give every caster all spells while we're at it.


    This is DnD, classes aren't meant to be balanced...they're supposed to be specialized with specific roles forcing you to work as a team. BG obviously doesn't do a good job of that, since it throws out a lot of the built-in checks to keep classes from being able to do everything.

    Even mages can't handle every situation because they get very few spell casts compared to divine casters and are almost useless without wands or scrolls for back-up once they're out of spells, while clerics are still fairly powerful in melee to make up for their more support role, their lack of natural extra attacks being the only thing to really hold them back from competing directly with Fighters as melee powerhouses. Druids get the short of the stick since of a lot of their PnP value didn't translate well (they're more social oriented or using the environment to by-pass challenges, rather then straight up combat), much like Bards were screwed as well.
  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473

    No.

    Why not just give every caster all spells while we're at it.


    This is DnD, classes aren't meant to be balanced...they're supposed to be specialized with specific roles forcing you to work as a team. BG obviously doesn't do a good job of that, since it throws out a lot of the built-in checks to keep classes from being able to do everything.

    Even mages can't handle every situation because they get very few spell casts compared to divine casters and are almost useless without wands or scrolls for back-up once they're out of spells, while clerics are still fairly powerful in melee to make up for their more support role, their lack of natural extra attacks being the only thing to really hold them back from competing directly with Fighters as melee powerhouses. Druids get the short of the stick since of a lot of their PnP value didn't translate well (they're more social oriented or using the environment to by-pass challenges, rather then straight up combat), much like Bards were screwed as well.

    It's too easy to restore spells in the BG games, which makes Mages much more powerful then Clerics imo.
    Geared they get a decent amount of casts for buffs and control so you don't need to rest that often also you don't need the "nukes" for every battle and with preparation they have enough casts for the more difficult ones.
  • FubbyFubby Member Posts: 189
    I think druids should. They are pretty bad.
  • QuartzQuartz Member Posts: 3,853
    edited July 2013
    Fubby said:

    I think druids should. They are pretty bad.

    At the risk of sounding indecently blunt, nah Fubby, you're pretty bad, not the class.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @Freche

    then the obvious real choice is to do a blanket nerf to bring classes down to where they should be, and buffing social interactions to give druids, bards, and to a lesser degree, paladins a time to really shine. And include some context sensitive options, like being able to negotiate with Sirens or other such creatures of nature if a druid is in the party, rather then simply attacking immediately. BG includes a tiny handful of situations like that already, but not NEARLY enough.


    Need to also re-vamp the druid shapeshifts, giving them a stealthy panther or something to turn into (turning into a small bird and scouting discreetly is one of the bigger benefits of being a PnP druid), or a big snake that can grapple foes or a poisonous spider. Their current shapeshifting is a horribly neutered version of what it should be capable of.


    Rather then buffing stuff that doesn't need buffed in the first place....if something is wrong, that's what you fix, not break something else so the wrong doesn't seem quite as wrong.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Minor sequencer would be used only to stack Dooms on a victim, which would be useful. Ish. I assume Doom stacks?

    Could double up command, making it harder to avoid. Anyways, hardly in danger of breaking anything.

    Sequencer is a bit more useful, but again, clerics lack the spells to make sequencers powerhouses in the first place. The best use would be to use sequencer as a cleric spell to save a wizard slot!

    I'd rather clerics and Druids get miracle. Wizards get Wish, so lets be fair. Actually, does miracle exist in 2nd ed? Bah, we get 3rd Ed barbarians, so why not?
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    I still think making Avenger Druids get the normal Spell Sequencer (3 spells of up to level 4) as a Level 7 spell would work... As they are now they get special spells "only" in levels 1-6, so why not 7?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Or you could give them the elemental themed horrid wilting *looks innocent* O:)
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    @DreadKhan

    It's called Dolorous Decay or Creeping Doom.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317

    @DreadKhan

    It's called Dolorous Decay or Creeping Doom.

    I don't agree with giving the sequencer to druids, but realistically (at least in game) as it stands now neither of these compare very positively to horrid wilting.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Druids have their own powerful spells, such as elemental summoning and insect plague .
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2013
    Well obviously, you don't want a druid having the same outright blasting power as a mage, but in terms of damage done, they're quite acceptable (creeping doom is around 80 guaranteed damage or so, which is the same average damage as HW, except dealt over 6 rounds, instead of instantly), and have the added bonus of dealing the damage over time, causing hit-reactions that dramatically reduce the enemies ability function while dealing out some pretty heavy damage. Which is what druids do...they support.
  • SchneidendSchneidend Member Posts: 3,190
    Ew. No. Why kill one of the coolest advantages of Cleric/Mage multi-classes and dual-classes?
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,847
    I'm all for Avengers getting Spell Sequencer as a circle 7 spell though. That's a great idea.
  • the_spyderthe_spyder Member Posts: 5,018
    bbear said:


    Sequencer:
    1. Holy Smite x3
    2. Call Woodland Beings x3 / Call Wooland Beings x2 + Defense Harmony
    3. Call Lightning x3 (Finally this spell has some use!)
    4. Holy Power + DUHM x2

    I base my vote pretty much on the fact that 3 out of 4 of these (and potentially all 4) are arguably abuses of the game. Summons and buffs should not be stackable (in my personal and unofficial viewpoint).

    Sure, a Cleric/Mage can do this, but if I were playing that character, I simply wouldn't. And yes, Wizards can sequence multiple versions of a spell as well. Just saying, why open up the abuse further?

    All in my own personal opinion. Feel free to disagree. Just don't flame, please.
  • MathmickMathmick Member Posts: 326
    edited July 2013
    Let's give Fighters spells too! Who's with me? ...Guys?

    EDIT: Fixed unnecessary apostrophe... no grammar police around to pick it up earlier...
    Post edited by Mathmick on
  • KaltzorKaltzor Member Posts: 1,050
    edited July 2013
    I would give regular Druids and Clerics Minor Spell Sequencer at best... What can you do with that, 2 cure light wounds, blessing chant, doom command/hold person/charm, DUHM Armor of Faith... Nothing too game breaking.
  • bbearbbear Member Posts: 1,180
    edited July 2013
    Bless at current stage leaves a lot to be desired. Casting time is 1 round for duration of 6 rounds? The effect is crappy too. Chant is marginally better. It has the same casting time of 1 round and a duration of 1 turn.

    In general, I see the cleric and druid spells are very weak compared to mage spells of equivalent levels. A spell sequencer is meant to make them competitive. Faster and a stronger punch. Lvl 7 is the apex level for cleric and druids. They need the spell that can deliver.

    If C/M has access to Minor Sequencer and Sequencer for cleric spells, why not give the perks to single class clerics? And if single class clerics have it, why not druids? Other classes are different because they are not spellcasters. As Mathmick sarcastically suggested, fighter and other classes would be indifferent to spell sequencer because they have innate abilities.
    Post edited by bbear on
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2013
    Because they had to stop gaining clericial (or arcane) power, or take longer to level up to get access to sequencers. It's not a free benefit.

    Clerics and druids aren't MEANT to compete with mages. They focus on different aspects.

    If anything, the real ideal choice would be to enforce resting limits (i.e. no resting at all in dungeons, limiting it specifically to inns or certain other special rooms or the ability to camp from the world map menu (like that room in Watcher's Keep that mentions you could rest safety here)). That way the cleric/druids greater spell capacity would be a proper foil to the mages high powered but limited number of slots, as intended. (And if you leave to rest and come back before finishing a dungeon, most of them (those being maintained by intelligent creatures) will have respawned (non-unique enemies only) and beefed up encounters for the rest of the dungeons, roughly doubling number of enemies or adding in extra stronger enemies to encounters).

  • FrecheFreche Member Posts: 473
    @ZanathKariashi all your suggestions are indeed the better solution to fix the balance issues. But one would also have too look if they are possible to make.
    Adding limitations to resting would make it required to revamp resting in general. Adding re-spawning dungeons would probably require additional tweaking etc.

    Giving Clerics and Druids (minor) sequencer would be easier if one wants to make them a bit closer to mages (though I highly doubt WotC would agree to such addition).
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Removing resting in dungeons that are active, ie the two mines ffs simply makes sense. I don't think you can sleep in the official iron throne local hq in baldur's gate, yet you can nap for days on end in a kobold infested warren, or an enemy fortress. Seriously, wth! The thing is, most serious enemies never respawn. Meaning you can always come back.

    But this isn't likely to happen, so give clerics and Druids sequencers. Or miracle ffs.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    edited July 2013
    @Freche
    Not really....areas can be easily flagged as no resting. Just flag every area except inns (aside from the top level of Watcher's Keep, which is fine as is since it has a ridiculous interrupt rate anyway unless sleeping in the safe room), and that part is done. And even something as simple as that would go a long away.

    And maybe add a line to the Saghuahin Priestess to allow you to rest as if in an Inn....that's the only area of the game you don't really have an option to rest. And allow resting in Spellhold, but force the Bodhi encounter early if the player takes too long (more then a day or so) to reach the exit from all the resting.


    The 2nd part is just a fluff suggestion to punish people for leaving and resting, since otherwise the no-rest thing is just an annoyance rather then forcing you to decide if replenishing your spells is worth not only losing all the progress you made through the dungeon, but likely making it more difficult since now they're extra prepared for further attacks.
    Post edited by ZanathKariashi on
  • TaylorTwerkTaylorTwerk Member Posts: 79
    Mages and sorcerers should get healing and restoration spells too xD XD lel. Just multi class.
  • ZanathKariashiZanathKariashi Member Posts: 2,869
    Technically they do (if they were properly implemented)....they're just very high level, and very inefficient for their slot (Limited Wish and Wish function just like the 3rd edition version, and can replicate divine spells up to 3rd and 5th levels, respectively, but they suck 5 years off your life per spell, in addition any side effects the casting that spell has normally, like restoration knocking an additional 3 years off your life (total of 8 lost years)). And Synostatic Dwyeomor converts the next spell cast into 2 hp per spell level of healing for the target, at ....6th? was it? spell level (Using a 9th level spell heals less then a 3rd level cure spell and it cost you a 9th and 6th level slot to do it).

    Hell, 2nd edition mages could raise the dead......sure, you'd come back as a completely random creature, but at least it wasn't mostly animals like the druid version and who knows...might get something OP.
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