Paladin or Fighter?
Soltra
Member Posts: 19
I have only just got back into Baldur's Gate and I want to start again as a front-line fighter character. But I still don't know which is better to use; Fighter or Paladin. If some veterans could help me in choosing which class to be and the best kit to use, it would really be appreciated.
0
Comments
For a kit I'd go with Cavalier. Mostly for its immunities.
For a paladin you can pick anything really, but the Cavalier is amazingly good. The inqusitor is also great but he has quite a few drawbacks aswell.
Now a fighter or paladin? Unless you're going to dual class your fighter later in the game then you should probably pick a Cavalier (Paladin kit) instead. The fighter is quite boring as the only thing a pure fighter can do is beat stuff with his weapon. The cavalier will be able to get priest spells, summon devas and lots of other neat things. Let me show you to make it easier
Fighter (Berserker)
1.) Great fighting abilities
2.) Rage
Paladin (Cavalier)
1.) Great fighting abilities
2.) Divine spells
3.) Turn Undead
4.) Two amazing weapons that only paladins can wield
5.) Summon down devas (Angels) to help you fight on higher level
6.) Easier to get high stats
Paladins only get their spells in BG2 due to their level cap, so I don't bother with them at all in BG:EE (blackguards being an honourable exception here). Not to mention my natural dislike of goody-goodies. :P
but still fighter/cleric dwarf would be really good for this role with max con much better hp and ST
plus duhm even more power and other buffs and spells from cleric
1.) He's worse than the berserker on almost every point. His rage is worse than the berserkers, he can't wear plate, he can't get grand mastery, His extra 2 health per level isn't going to make a difference and the immune to backstab is only important when you play SCS. The only redeeming feature he has is the 20% damage reduction you get late on, and that isn't worth all the negative points.
2.) I can agree with Berserker -> Cavalier for the rage and if you dual class.
3.) Inquisitor -> Undead hunter. The undead hunter doesn't bring anything new to the table that you can't get with items. The Inquisitor will destroy every single caster combat you'll fight, and his dispel magic is more powerful than the mage will ever have.
4.) Cleric/Ranger is much better in BG than a fighter/cleric.
I'm really curious about why you rate the Barbarian so highly.
I honestly do not see why people dislike the inquisitor so much. Priests can turn and heal far better than any paladin anyway. The loss of spells is kind of a big hit, but most people just bring a priest along for that anyway. Not to mention the class bonuses are really good. The inquisitor is the one and only class that can cast the ultra dispel. That is very unique and incredibly useful.
I also do not understand why the cavalier gets such admiration. He is basically just immune to some stuff. Sure there is the bonus vs demons and dragons, which are nasty, but how common are those guys in the series anyway? Not to mention they lose missile weapons.
I personally would rather have the actively used special abilities of the inquisitor than a few passive immunities. Makes me feel like I'm actually doing something. Besides, there are spells that give immunities. Why would I want to pick a kit that just gives me a few immunities that I can get with spells and items anyway?
+ his rage is almost as good as of berserker
2.)i think paladins shine in bg2 where they can cast some buffs from spells so that is why i rate them lower here
3.) is arguable massive dispell vs few immunities
4.) arguable like 3 dwarf will have better con and ST while ranger/cleric will not
ranger/cleric won't have 5th level spells like 6/10 fighter/druid and that is why druids are cool in bg1
The C/R gets :
1.) More divine spells to pick between (Druid pool) with things like Woodland being one of the strongest (If not the strongest) divine spell in the game.
2.) Favored enemy which helps alot
3.) Easier to get good stats when you create your character.
The F/C gets :
1.) Better saving throws if you're playing a dwarf.
2.) A little bit faster level progression (This is so little it really isn't going to change anything)
3.) Better constitution and strength if you play a orc. You'll get high enough constitution and strenght wit DuHM that this is only really that important early game.
As you can see the only main reasons are if you're playing half orc or dwarf. And I really don't think those weight up for what the C/R gets.
I know we're talking BGEE here but when/if you get to BG2 with this character, the C/R will destroy the F/C.
BG 1 -> C/R
BG 2 -> C/R by alot.
[Edited] :
Paladin level 2 = 2250 experience
Fighter level 2 = 2000 experience
Paladin level 7 = 75000
Fighter level 7 = 64000
It isn't that hard to get experience in this game, and both will be able to reach the same level in TotSC.
woodland beings vs all the adv for f/c
the nymphs are cool
in bg2 there is no question
the easy one would be take them both
they are rather strong
1.) Better stats
2.) Favored enemy
3.) All druid spells (Woodland beings)
Against
1.) Better saving throws if you play dwarf, +1 str and +1 con if you play half orc.
So how are that "All the advantages" I agree with Cavalier probably being the best class for him to play. I enjoy playing Cavalier alot myself aswell, such a great kit.
[Edited] : This has nothing to do with C/R vs F/C and everything to do with two races. So no the F/C doesn't have any advantage over a C/R except being able to pick Half orc or Dwarf.
how is favored enemy even there? it is not like there is 1 type of monster in the game
there is a lot different and if you kill just 1 type a little easier it doesn't really matter
woodland beings are good
do you know sanctuary is level 1 invisibility spell? every cleric can use it
at least dual-wielding is nice feature of them
It's not as big as having it against dragons in BG2 but it's still an amazing ability to have in BG1 aswell.
2.) The ranger/cleric got the easiest to get good starting stats in the game. They got so many high minimums in stats that you can't roll bad with them. You'll have to roll quite a bit to get good stats on a half-orc or dwarf while it's easy to roll this up on a ranger/cleric :
18 str
18 dex
18 con
18 wisdom
10 intellect
10 charisma.
I normally get something like this on my C/R
18 str
18 dexc
18 con
18 wisdom
13-15 intellect
10 charisma
Yes you can roll for several hours to get good stats, but it helps alot to play C/R here.
3.) Woodland beings are GREAT. It's like having an extra level 8-9 cleric in your party.
2.) but those stats are worthless it is not icewind dale 2 when higher int get you something
3.) woodland beings are great so they are still the only plus side on ranger/cleric
r/c is also like paladins
he shines in bg2 level range
It doesn't work like that. Favored enemy is a great bonus to have in this game, and it makes some encounters trivial. 4 Thac0 and damage is HUGE. So ofcourse this is a bonus.
2.) None of those stats are worthless
Strenght -> Damage
Dexterity -> AC
Constitution -> Health
Wisdom -> More spells
Intellect -> Awesome when fighting illithids and mind flayers.
So you're saying that only having to spend 2-5 minutes to get amazing stats isn't a bonus, because they are worthless?
3.) Woodlands is the best divine spell in BGEE/BG1 and probably up there with the best arcane spells aswell.
You have this odd idea that things like Favored enemy isn't a plus?
4.) I'm going to play a half-elf F/C and i don't get any bonuses against the C/R. Dwarf and half-orc are useless here as i'm not going to play them. So F/C have absolutely no advantage.
Half-Elf C/R
Favored enemy
Druid divine spells
Easier to get good stats
Half-elf F/C
Nothing
Nothing
Nothing
So there is absolutely no advantage to playing F/C.
Faster level progression for a fighter/cleric is a big factor. To get to level 7 (gives you another 1/2 APR) as a fighter you need 22000 XP less than a Cleric/Ranger, and the biggest things a cleric/ranger has that make up for this is a favoured enemy, the dual wielding bonus, better weapon variety, and call woodland beings (the latter of which it doesn't get until later into the game). In the beginning the better weapon variety can be nice if you go the warhammer/mace route, but it all depends on what your party members are and what they are using (plus whatever offhand weapon you are using only attacks once per round regardless). The dual wielding is its saving grace in the beginning but as the game progresses it becomes less relevant. A dwarf dual wielding one weapon type (say maces) can actually get to 3*'s in dual wielding about 1000xp before a Cleric/Ranger just because Cleric/Ranger's can't add (past the 2*'s) to dual wielding in the character creation screen (and as I've pointed out as the game moves forward their level progression takes progressively longer than a fighters). As for favoured enemy you only get 1 favoured enemy in BGEE so yes you can kill 1 enemy really well. Carrior crawlers and Ogres are really the only threats on there and carrior crawlers especially are so rare they are hardly worth mentioning.
Woodlands also has a casting time of 7. Its a great spell, but they require themselves a fair bit of micromanagement to actually do the right thing (with the AI on for instance typically the first thing they cast is hold monster even though it generally is useless). They also of course have very little health and they are mushy summons next to the skeletal warriors that you could be summoning instead (from either your character or another cleric in your party). Both classes also don't get level 4 cleric spells anyways until 110,000 XP into the game. Thats about roughly half of the available experience in the game.
Of course dwarves enter into this and they are certainly not useless here. For the sake of argument I'll stick with arguing in favour of a Dwarf Fighter/Cleric because it is a relevant setup. +5 saves vs spells, death, and wands (not as relevant) is extremely useful and isn't something a cleric/ranger can ever get. Access to this is a point in favour of the Fighter/Cleric (in the same way that speaking of dwarves only getting 16 dexterity - should of course be 17 - is a negative for dwarves). In comparison half-elves get 30% resistance to sleep and charm spells. Its a great racial bonus but its not at the same tier.
Its easier to get good stats with a cleric/ranger but you really don't need much to be a good fighter to begin with. While checking things I just rolled a fighter/cleric and the first roll I got was 86 (relatively speaking it was a lucky roll). You only need a roll of 82 to have (in the case of a Dwarf 18/whatever, 16, 19, 10, 18, 1. At a certain point you are just rolling for a charisma score or better intelligence. The charisma isn't all that useful if it isn't at least closer to 16 anyways.
1.) The saving throws are a bonus in BGEE as once you get Chaotic / Death ward you can remove this factor.
2.) Greater doppelganger in my SCS installation are cruel. Perfect target for favored enemy.
3.) Getting free proficiensy in dual wielding is never a bad thing.
4.) The starting proficiensy of the R/C and F/C
Ranger :
2* Dual wielding
2* War hammer
2* Mace
Fighter :
2* Dual wielding
2* War hammer
5.) Just the fact that the dryad can heal your whole party up is great. The hold, charms and such can make a very hard battle trivial.
6.) You can easily roll 90 with a C/R.
7.) The fact that the F/C can get dual wielding 1000 experience before the R/C really isn't that much of an advantage. When you look at the 2 free prof points the R/C gets and you shouldn't be dual wielding at low level. Get a large shield +1 and wait until later on with dual wielding.
The only thing i would give to the F/C is being a dwarf or half orc. Both of the bonuses they get are useless once you get into BG2. And if you're only going to play BG1 then you could aswell just play a pure class berserker and walk through the game.
I would also want to mention that if you take dual class into consideration instead of dwarf/half-orc you could make a Berserker / cleric for the rage.
Better off going for the Mace (Stupefier) as your main weapon for the dwarf fighter/cleric. Its only a +1 weapon but with your APR and its no-save effect its the weapon you want to be hitting enemies with as much as possible. 25% is a good percentage and once you get an enemy once with the effect they are pretty well crippled anyways (it impacts them anywhere between 1-4 rounds). Plus you can buy a Mace +1 in Beregost at the smithy. Its not as good as the warhammer of electricity of course for an offhand weapon but its only a different of 2 damage a round (1 later if you dare to go to the depths of Durlag's for the +2 mace). Once you get DUHM either as a spell or ability you are going to be doing a lot of damage just with strength bonuses so that 2 damage is going to be relatively less significant.
+5 saves vs spells is certainly not useless in BG2. Yes fighters have good saving throws by themselves, but it just provides an added layer of protection against any mage spells you encounter. Especially the ones like confusion or feeblemind that can really screw over an encounter.
In BG1, the barbarian is flat out superior to the berserker in every way possible. Easily the best fighter type character in the game in fact. Their speed bonus is RIDICULOUSLY powerful (you can't get boosts of speed until over 2/3 of the way through the game), and their rage is a double strength DUHM (for BG1 anyway, since DUHM caps at +2) with built-in immunities. the armor "penalty" is a non-issue, because they spend less time moving towards the target and thus don't take as many ranged attacks, and once in melee range, depending on weapon speed and reach (quarterstaves are god), they can effortless kill any target in melee without taking a hit due to superior mobility (and ranged only enemies take a a big thac0 hit for close range, while you get a thac0 bonus to hit them).
In BG2...they're still flat out superior, aside from a small band right in the middle. (But we've already had this discussion in another devoted thread, so I'll leave it at that).
dwarf/orc better STATS are forever - big
dwarf better ST are forever - big
woodland beings - big
dual wielding from ranger - very very very minor 1st level f/c can dual-wield + have the same level of weapon prof.
only str dex con wis is good for clerics it is not iwd2 or there are no ilithids (ilithids are bg2 and we agree it is different story there)