aVENGER'S Rogue Rebalancing Mod

EntropyXII

Recently been using this mod and I must say it is outstanding. It completely gives a balanced and new look to rogues within the world of BG, bringing them closer to the PnP world. It would solve a number of issues such as: making Assassins useful in BG1:EE, and making bard's a more appealing prospect.

There have been a few discussions in feature requests asking for certain changes to the rogue classes. Many of these can be solved, or at least sated by introducing this mod as a standard in BG:EE.

Information for the mod can be found here: http://avenger981.github.io/doc/readme_rr.html

As it appears @aVENGER is already a part of the BG:EE team, there should be no problems in getting hold of him/her to find out if they could use this mod.

Anyway the poll is below - Let's see what the fans think!

SpaceInvader

It's a must-have for me too, like SCS.

ZanathKariashi

My only real gripe is them not nerfing Offensive Spin to what it's supposed to do (next hit, no-save fear, targets with more HD then the blade get a save), and not giving the Skald the ability to wear any equipment a fighter can, except full plate (not sure if the Skald can sing while fighting or not.....a work around, would be to give them lingering song at creation), and they still haven't removed the blade, skald or jester's ability to use wands (not sure if they could disallow casting from scrolls without removing the ability to learn from them) And the Skald's spell progression/caster level should be 1 level behind a normal bards, not 1 less cast speed....that's not even a penalty really. And change the Jester's available weapons to only daggers, clubs, staves, slings, and darts, and no armor higher then leather.

Other then those little things...looks pretty good. The spell progression especially was much needed.

Now if they could just remove the 3rd point of two-weapon style in general (the PnP version only has 2 ranks, just like all the other styles, and ends at 0/-2 like the current 3rd point does).

EntropyXII

@ZanathKariashi - Agreed. I don't play bards really, and a big part of the reason is that the current bard classes just don't live up to standard. If they were more PnP they may be more appealing to new and old players alike.

smeagolheart

must have mod, improves the game big time.

Edvin

Good idea, but they never iplement something like this.
This mod brings too much changes.
90% that changes are good, but other 10% are very disputed.

MERLANCE

Just leave the game as it is. If people want it, they can download it as a mod.

EntropyXII

The way things are right now, why would people not want to change the current rogue classes? They're not PnP. They're not balanced. if they were made up on the spot at the original making of BG then why not recreate them again?

Edvin

We must start with small changes first. This is simply too big.

ZanathKariashi

They for all intents and purposes implemented Tutu as standard. and that changed a HELL of lot more then this mod would (hell, people have been complaining about bards for years, while it doesn't fix every issue, especially since without their proper penalties the kits are still superior to the base bard in every way, it is a huge step in the right direction).


The changes to the assassin are mixed. If they wanted to make it really PnP accurate, remove the x7 BS completely assassins are poison specialists, not backstabbers, and they're supposed to be able to place proficiencies in all weapon types (instead of +1 hit/damage).

Increase skill points per level to 20, and given them a couple extra varieties of poisons that do different things (One for high damage as current, one that causes no damage but a chance for paralysis for 4 rounds at -2 save, and one that causes half damage and slows the target, would be a good start)

All poisons on the same daily charge count (and increase the gain rate to 1 use per level, but each charge only lasts for 1 round worth of attacks (the overall poison up time is the same, but breaks it down into smaller chunks so that it isn't as wasteful).

In place of the instant death attack they added, replace it with 1 daily use of Black Lotus poison, which is a next-hit attack that drains 1 Con per second for 3 rounds at -2 save (stacks with poison specialization save penalty), save to deal 2 damage per assassin level instead (Targets immune to stat drain save automatically) (it's the deadliest poison in DnD, save the one used for making Dracoliches).

The increased save bonus/penalties are correct.

Evil and Neutral only are correct.

Can be proficient in all weapons a fighter can use.

Minimum scores 12 str, 12 dex, 11 int.

Only starts with 40 skill points to distribute at creation, instead of 60.


The bounty hunter is very close to PnP.


Swashy is closer to PnP. Not 100% perfect though. The rogue version is basically a duelist. Specializes in single weapon style (gains ** at creation) but loses access to two-weapon style and gets a bonus MH attack when their off-hand is empty.

Can gain expertise in a select list of weapons (Only longswords are currently implemented..so any sword-like weapon would work I guess), and when using those weapons has the same hit chance of a fighter of equal level.

Gains double the AC benefit of single weapon style (total of +4) and can choose to apply some, none, or all of it to their melee damage for each round, instead of AC. Can perform a special disarm maneuver, and gains a reaction bonus vs the opposite sex. Only gains 20 skill points per level and cannot backstab due to less focus on thief skills and more broad general combat knowledge.


And they need to find a way to implement the vanilla Thief's (and ONLY the vanilla thief's) ability to use spell scrolls at level 10. (50% base chance of failure, +5% per spell level. -5% for 14-15 int, -10% for 16-17 int, -15% for 18-19 int, -20% for 20+ int). Upgrades automatically at level 24 so that 6th and lower no longer fail and 7th and higher have a 25% + 5% per spell level and allows them to use wands. In the process, remove Use Any Item completely...because the the level 24+ upgrade is all PnP UAI does for thieves (for bards it allows them to use any item a Mage can and opens up the ability to craft wands at 27, where as mages can craft them as early as 10).

EntropyXII

Wow, the vote for this is a little more even that I thought it would be. It's interesting though. I feel I am being very one sided in this and a bit bias - could anybody say why they chose the 'no' option?

For no other reason than I wish to hear others points of view on the subject.

elminster

MERLANCE said:

Just leave the game as it is. If people want it, they can download it as a mod.

Its an admirable mod and I can respect its efforts to make things more like PnP, but I tend to view things like this from the perspective that since this is already a mod and its not actually fixing any bugs (in the unintentional behavior sense) in the game it should be left up to people to decide whether or not they want to install it. So I agree with @MERLANCE here.

Draith012

After going through the changes, I'm all for a return to the pnp dnd. It never made sense to me that rogues couldn't duel wield or was heavily penalized for trying. I would like to see the Dexterity reaction modifier be applied to duel-wield as well.

AlexT

Hi all, glad you liked the mod.

For my part, I believe the players should experience the game as it was originally designed, so I don't think that a direct (non-optional) mod integration is the way to go. That said, as a member of the development team, I will naturally do everything in my power to make RR as compatible with BGEE as possible, so that anyone who wants the mod can simply download and install it.

Draith012

Hey @aVENGER,

I noticed something about the swashbuckler with your mod (in regards for EE version at least). When they level up, they acquire a particular buff that improves their melee THAC0 (observable in EE Shadowkeeper) to reflect their Fighter progression in those weapons, however it is applied every level, including the ones that Thieves normally get a THAC0 improvement on. So on level 3 and 5, for example, their melee THAC0 effectively improves by 2; making them improve even better than regular Fighters.

Just thought you would like to know.

karnor00

I think it's a great mod. But I think it's best to leave the original game as is, and so this remains a mod.

EntropyXII

I guess it comes down to what many people consider an 'Enhanced' Edition to be. I guess I am all for implementing the mod as a standard because I genuinely believe it Enhances the original game.

On another note: I am glad @aVENGER is onboard with BG:EE. It is a great mod, and even if it is not implemented as a standard I am happy to know it is still being worked on.

I can also see the point of view that, if they make rogues more PnP - where does it end? Fighter/clerics/barbarians/rangers etc etc will all have to be altered.

Anyhow, thanks aVENGER - I love RR. You have given me a knew lease for life in regards to Bards! xD

sirthaddaeus

are the items included in rr inclued bg1ee when the mod is installed?

frede957

Just installed the mod and I must say I'm in love! Sins I love bards and has and will always love them I has just hated the fact that the bard kit was so unbalanced compared to the normal true bard and i think this mod do a nice job in changing that. For the thief kits? I like them as there are and actual thing it only make the thief and it's kits more unbalanced than i like but still a wonderful mod! ^^

JuliusBorisov

I'd say: we have an awesome mod, can install it easily, so let the game stay as it is.

Southpaw

I like the original game and being a long-time Thief player, I'd welcome the changes. But adding them into the core game might be a bit too much ...

O_Bruce

I'll say leave it as it is. If someone is going to use the mod, let them do it. But not forcing it upon the rest. I play BG for other reason than PnP simulator.

Thorgaaz

I would like the mod. Its a little sad that the Bard looses Timetrap, but it is more fitting like that. And most of the changes are not only fitting but neccessary. Lets be honest you use a thief, because the Game force you to disarm traps, (and you mind force you to open locks and take the use all Items ability)

But you dont really want them to use in Battle. Even with Backstab an better Thac0 and Profession is simply neccessary. They dont need to be the best frontlinefighters, but a thief yust need at last to hit his enemys. And there is no reason why he shouldnt.

And For the Bard: At least the Skald Song change is an must have to not feel screwed in later Games. Having 8th lvl Arcane spells too would change him into an real option compared to all these FMT or MTs walking around. Ok, these are the Top Tiers in BG, so maybe thats not that neccessary, but considering they still dont get the highest level, i dont think they will replace them entirely so why not?

And making it a downloadable mod is not the same for me, because it feels a little more like cheating if i do that. Making it official would show me that it is okay from the side of the developers to use it.

bob_veng

MERLANCE said:

Just leave the game as it is. If people want it, they can download it as a mod.

it's better to add improvements to the vanilla than not to, and there'll be mods for sentimental or out-of-principle anti change folks to revert to the old state anyway. without some improvements, such as this one, bg can never reach the talked about "excellent state" imo.

[Deleted User]

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evildevil97

I pretty much always use at least some of RR in my playthroughs. That being said, it's too big of a change of the core gameplay to make standard. But this is a relatively old request thread, so.. it ain't gonna happen anyway.