Does swashy become stronger in Combat than fighters at high levels?

Fubby

By high levels I mean 20-30. BG2 SOA high levels.

Kaltzor

I am fairly certain they cannot... Maybe slightly higher damage, but the fighters make it up with better THAC0 and more attacks per round... And There is always HLAs... Swashbucklers only get Use Any Item to use some weapons and normal Whirlwind Attack which removes 20 levels worth of Swashbuckler bonuses to hit and damage, while Fighters get Improved Whirlwind and Critical Strike/Smite.

elminster

It depends on what you call stronger. Swashbucklers get time stop traps, use any item, etc. They have worse attacks per round and can't benefit from grandmastery but they can get the ability to cast spells from scrolls and do other useful things once they get use any item.

Kaltzor said:

normal Whirlwind Attack which removes 20 levels worth of Swashbuckler bonuses to hit and damage

The penalty to Whirlwind is +4 to Thac0. There is no -4 to damage.

Fubby

By stronger I mean, in direct combat, would the AC and + dmg overcome grand mastery and extra attacks of a fighter?

zur312

it wouldn't but they are better in combat than other thiefs
the easy way to have good fighting thief is go with some kind of fighter thief either berserker/theif of immunities, kensai/thief for uber kai backstab, mage/thief for lulz with spells and funny stuff, fighter/thief who is pretty similar to kensai and berserker but you can use bows and he has stable level progresion without dualing at X level

Kaltzor

elminster said:

The penalty to Whirlwind is +4 to Thac0. There is no -4 to damage.

According to the description there is a damage penalty... However, testing it's presense is quite difficult... And BG2 doesn't exactly show THAC0 and Damage bonuses/penalties from effects anywhere...

zur312

swashy whirlwind + cleric true magic or true something for max damage

CaptRory

Does Use Any Item let thieves wear heavy armor? Its been a long time since I played to that level.

zur312

use any time yes any

ZanathKariashi

Yes they're better. Not only that, once they get UAI, they're basically a F/M/T as a single class (though you have to keep a supply of scrolls on hand, and know when they're needed and when they're not).

Vs any enemies except the 4 +4 and above, they easily out damage anything short of a pure kensai, by a large margin, and are comparable to a fighter vs the +4 guys. They grossly out-tank fighters, and all their extra thieving abilities can handle every situation imaginable with ease. So not only are they flat out stronger, they're also a massive party utility as well.

(Dual-wielding speed weapons, as soon as possible, under IH allows 8 per round (9 after UAI and the Gauntlets of pwnage), with a +5 overall damage per hit then a fighter (with only 3 worse total thac0). For using WWA vs the +4 and above enemies, you can just pop tenser's or use the shakti figurine to raise that advantage to +7 damage per hit and -10 base thac0 (10 more then a non-Kensai).

elminster

Kaltzor said:

elminster said:

The penalty to Whirlwind is +4 to Thac0. There is no -4 to damage.

According to the description there is a damage penalty... However, testing it's presense is quite difficult... And BG2 doesn't exactly show THAC0 and Damage bonuses/penalties from effects anywhere...

Yea you are right I was relying on a third party site when I wrote that. My bad

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Tresset

Fubby said:

By stronger I mean, in direct combat, would the AC and + dmg overcome grand mastery and extra attacks of a fighter?

Well kensai progresses in to hit and damage faster than a swashy and they are also fighters of course so, offensively speaking, they are quite ridiculous. Of course their armor also sucks so in that respect they are far worse.

What I would like to know is how they compare to monks.

ZanathKariashi

@typo_tilly

+9 more then a fighter can possibly achieve (basically a permanently active Defensive Spin at higher levels), so they get hit a fair bit less. And spell-casting on top, though since it's scroll based you can't be quite as free with the spell usage as a part mage would. Once you get UAI, you can wear anything a fighter could and be utterly better. Earlier then UAI, the bonus AC helps offset the limited armor choices, by allowing them to have comparable AC to full plate (including the extra bonus vs damage types), while having comparable HP to a F/T multi.


The Kensai gives up A LOT, and is the only fighter who can out damage a swashy in straight combat (+13 vs +8 (+10 if you count Tenser's)), but can't equip armor, cast spells, and lacks the huge variety of effects having full thief skill advancement allows.


The swashbucklers biggest weakness is the lack of extra base attacks. In BG1, it's not as a big deal, since difference is smaller. But in BG2 it was a big issue. However....dual-speed weapons eliminates that issue out of hand, giving them only 1/2 attack less then a (corrected) GM'd fighter would have, but more then enough bonus damage to easily equal 1-2 extra base attacks worth of damage, so in the end, they are straight up more powerful (Needs to use WWA vs +4 and higher enemies since the speed weapons are only +3 and +2, but casting tenser's prior gives you to-hit to burn, so you can just wield whatever...staff of the ram is a good candidate). (The total thac0 difference between them is 3 and that can be eliminated by use of the shakti figurine or tenser's scroll allowing swashy's to get a +7 hit advantage).